A Scientist Explains Why He Believes in the Resurrection

[arthwollipot]

A ten foot giant on the other hand....

Therein is the less believable bit. But again, it may well be derived from an actual, non-supernatural event where a champion of the Philistines, tall and heavily muscled but not absurdly so (think Jason Momoa) was killed by a weedy boy with a sling (Timothée Chalamet, perhaps), and the story, and Goliath's stature, grew in the retelling.

 

[acbytesla]

There are no records of who wrote the Gospel, only traditions. A record would be a document created either by the authors themselves, or by somebody with firsthand knowledge of authorship. Anything else is hearsay, rumor, and "tradition". And that is what we have. Traditions traceable back only to much later writers like Eusebius and Jerome, men who: a) were in no position to know who wrote the gospels, and b) were not above making things up.

But none of this matters, because the gospels are manifestly not eyewitness accounts. Luke even says as much in the prologue. An eyewitness account is a report of what the author personally saw and experienced. That is not what the gospels are, even on their face. They narrate things their putative authors could not plausibly have seen nor heard.

Did Matthew personally witness Abraham begetting Isaac? Of course not. Then that is not an eyewitness account.

What about the nativity, the flight to Egypt, the dreams Joseph had, the angelic message to Mary? What about the temptation in the wilderness, or the Transfiguration, or Jesus' agony on the Mount of Olives? The death of John the Baptist? The death of Judas? The conspiracy to betray Jesus? The discovery of the tomb?

Matthew narrates all of these events in his gospel. Which ones are you claiming he personally witnessed?

Very well said.

It's like the Torah. Jewish tradition has it that Moses wrote the Torah. Even it is conceded that Moses wrote these books, there is little reason to believe he was witness to more than 1% of the Torah. If that.

Matthew, Mark and Luke not only are not eyewitness testimony, the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that these Gospels are copies of either one of the other two or another source. IE: Q

 

[arthwollipot]

Interestingly, if Moses wrote the Torah, he also described his own death and what happened thereafter:

And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.

Deuteronomy 34: 4-8

 

[acbytesla]

Interestingly, if Moses wrote the Torah, he also described his own death and what happened thereafter:


Deuteronomy 34: 4-8

I want to know how Moses would know how the Earth was created thousands of years earlier.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I want to know how Moses would know how the Earth was created thousands of years earlier.

Oh. Come on. God told him. (Or he made it up. Take your pick). (And don't forget. You have two Creation d stories to pick from).

 

[acbytesla]

Oh. Come on. God told him. (Or he made it up. Take your pick). (And don't forget. You have two Creation d stories to pick from).

No no no. God revealed it to Moses.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

No no no. God revealed it to Moses.

One of the many tall tales that have always (well, since the age of 11) is when JC has conversations with Satan in the desert. I mean? Did he tell his followers in late night stories around the camp fire?

 

[acbytesla]

One of the many tall tales that have always (well, since the age of 11) is when JC has conversations with Satan in the desert. I mean? Did he tell his followers in late night stories around the camp fire?

That works.

 

[steenkh]

A ten foot giant on the other hand....

Therein is the less believable bit. But again, it may well be derived from an actual, non-supernatural event where a champion of the Philistines, tall and heavily muscled but not absurdly so (think Jason Momoa) was killed by a weedy boy with a sling (Timothée Chalamet, perhaps), and the story, and Goliath's stature, grew in the retelling.

Actually, this bit is believable. Slings were formidable weapons when wielded by skilled slingers, which were highly valued in ancient times. As one historian that I spoke to about the Roman use of slingers put it: slings were Roman pistols. A trained slinger was expected to be able to hit a mans head at 100 meters, and they could breach armour when they were made of lead (which was very common with the Romans; lots of Roman lead slingshots have been found in places where Romans have besieged a fortress). Now, I don’t know if David used a lead slingshot, but that he should be able to kill an armoured giant with a slingshot seems entirely plausible.

Except for the ten foot size …

 

[arthwollipot]

As I said, killing someone with a sling is entirely believable. That the person killed was ten feet tall is the less believable bit.

 

[acbytesla]

As I said, killing someone with a sling is entirely believable. That the person killed was ten feet tall is the less believable bit.

While you all are legitimately picking apart my post, you'll excuse me when I say your focusing on the peas and not the steak.

 

[arthwollipot]

While you all are legitimately picking apart my post, you'll excuse me when I say your focusing on the peas and not the steak.

Is the steak "but it's all ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ anyway so why are you bothering"?

 

[acbytesla]

Is the steak "but it's all ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ anyway so why are you bothering"?

Pretty much.

I listed 6 or 7 fairly ridiculous stories. That this one story wasn't as ridiculous as the rest hardly detracts from my overall point. It does, no question. But given the others I listed and no one had an argument about any of them kind of shows that no one is arguing over the "meat" of my post.

 

[dellarte]

More comprehensive examinations of Roman crucifixion and Jewish burial practices by specialist scholars show us that the gospel account of Jesus’ burial in a tomb by Joseph of Arimathea is historically credible.

Joseph of Arimathea
"Three of the four canonical Gospels identify him as a member of the Sanhedrin, while the Gospel of Matthew identifies him as a rich disciple of Jesus."

Arimathea
"There is no external evidence for the existence of Arimathea, and some scholars suggest that it may have been a literary device used in the Gospel narrative."

Antonius Felix: the Art of the Deal vs Book of Acts 24:26
"At the same time he was hoping that Paul would offer him a bribe, so he sent for him frequently and talked with him."

 

[Mojo]

I've never understood how people can be this gullible. Seriously, why do people living in the 21 century with all the benefits of modern science eschew all this and fall for a superstitious story in a bronze age sex manual told by illiterate goat herders?

Because having an imaginary friend is comforting.

 

[acbytesla]

Because having an imaginary friend is comforting.

I have no issue with anyone having a comforting imaginary friend. I fully confess I have one. But he's my creation. Not some illiterate goat herder's. Also mine doesn't tell me I'm not worthy. Or that he's going to torture me forever because I don't believe BS. Mine doesn't tell me not to masturbate or enjoy the touches of another human being. My imaginary friend doesn't tell me I have to worship him or put money into the preacher's collection plate.

 

[Mojo]

You imagine whoever you want.

 

[acbytesla]

You imagine whoever you want.

Is that really the case for everyone? Religion in my view, is a mind forged manacles that our parents and society made for us. They are hard to escape from.

 

[Mojo]

Is that really the case for everyone? Religion in my view, is a mind forged manacles that our parents and society made for us. They are hard to escape from.

I guess I was lucky that my parents allowed me to choose whether or not I needed manacles.

 

[acbytesla]

I guess I was lucky that my parents allowed me to choose whether or not I needed manacles.

Mine didn't. They sent me to church regularly, And Bible camp every summer.