A reason to like Senator Arnold?

[Eos of the Eons]

"The federally dictated model is outdated and has resulted in program costs that California can longer afford," the budget summary states.

With such a waiver, Schwarzenegger says he would:



-Trim comprehensive benefit packages so they mirror those offered by most employer health plans. The state wants to continue providing insurance for doctor visits, X-rays, ambulance service, prescription drugs and dental care, but exclude services such as chiropractic care and acupuncture, which are currently covered.

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/01/18/news/top_stories/1_17_0421_24_54.txt


Hmm, will we hear screams from the woo woos on this?

 

[El Greco]

I knew it! Arnold is numero uno!

 

[aerocontrols]

Just wanted to say "Governor Arnold"



/watched Predator on DVD last night
/am awaiting the election of Governor Carl Weathers

 

[corplinx]

Yes yes, he wants to drop quackery but he probably wants andros and whey protein supplements covered.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Yes yes, he wants to drop quackery but he probably wants andros and whey protein supplements covered.

Well, he has lots of money. He doesn't need them covered.

 

[Yahweh]

Go Ah-nold!

We love our Cally-fornia state Governator! Woohoo!

 

[Clancie]

Posted by Eos of the Eons

Hmm, will we hear screams from the woo woos on this?

Eos,

So...do you think chiropractic treatments and acupuncture never help anyone's pain management or physical/health problems and therefore -shouldn't- be covered by insurance? Is that what you mean by the "woo woo" reference? (And the reference by others to "quackery"?)

If so, I wonder how you would back that up.

 

[Yahweh]

Eos,

So...do you think chiropractic treatments and acupuncture never help anyone's pain management or physical/health problems and therefore -shouldn't- be covered by insurance? Is that what you mean by the "woo woo" reference? (And the reference by others to "quackery"?)

If so, I wonder how you would back that up.

From Wikipedia - Chriopractic Medicine:

Chiropractic medicine is a form of treatment that uses manipulative therapy to correct subluxation, which many chiropractors hold is the cause of most disease. Although manipulative therapy has been shown to have some efficacy in treating back pain, headache, and other symptoms of spinal-related conditions, the application of chiropractic medicine as a cure or outside of this specific area is controversial and generally rejected by medical doctors in most countries. Chiropractic is an example of complementary and alternative medicine.

...

Criticism of chiropractic claims

The National Council Against Health Fraud, an American private, non-profit health care organization issued a report in 1985 critical of chiropractic medicine.

Sixty-two clinical neurologists from across Canada, all certified members of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons, have issued a warning to the Canadian public and provincial governments about the dangers of neck manipulation. [6]

Mainstream medical doctors and scientists reject the claims of most chiropractic associations and schools as pseudoscience; many refer to their claims as fraud. Recently, however, a chiropracter from the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College, in Toronto, and two professors at the Los Angeles College of Chiropractic also came to this position; they hold that all chiropractic organizations engage in and promote "quackery".

York University at one point attempted to affiliate with a chiropractic school. The scientists and medical doctors at this school rebelled against the plan, and even created their own website explaining why this would be a bad idea. They enlisted the help of Nobel prize-winning scientists to explain to the school's administration, and public-at-large, why chiropractice is unscientific. [7]

There are many investigations and lawsuits underway in Canada for false advertising, deceptive practices and claims, injuries and deaths.

From PubMed - Methodological differences in clinical trials evaluating nonpharmacological and pharmacological treatments of hip and knee osteoarthritis.:

CONCLUSIONS: In this analysis of reports of hip and knee osteoarthritis therapy, nonpharmacological articles scored lower than pharmacological articles in terms of quality. Assessments of nonpharmacological treatments must take into consideration additional methodological issues.

Chiropractic Medicine and Acupuncture simply do not work, they dont have any medicinal value. For that reason, they are expendable in Health Care Plans (I wonder how they got on the Health Care Plans in the first place).

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Good post Yahweh.

Chiropractic medicine is a form of treatment that uses manipulative therapy to correct subluxation, which many chiropractors hold is the cause of most disease.

I could laugh, but it's sad the practice is based on such a non-proven theory.

Could the chiropractic "adjustment" create a signal of injury to the nervous system, prompting the release of endorphins and adrenaline? This would create the false sense of well-being as well as the suddenly energetic "boost" often experienced after quackapractic adjustments.

http://www.chirowatch.com/Chiro-Lewis/index.html

scroll down about 1/8 of the page to see comments.

An inquest jury in Ontario can only find one of five one-word verdicts:
homicide, suicide, accident, natural causes and undetermined. They cannot
actually point the finger of blame to anyone, so it is not open to them to
make a finding of "death from a chiropractic manipulation".

However, they were clearly instructed by the Coroner and other counsel that
if they were convinced that the cause of Lana Lewis' stroke was as a result
of the neck manipulation, this would be a traumatic origin of the stroke,
and their verdict would be 'accident'. If they believed that the stroke she
died from, was as a result of her lifestyle, health condition, etc., then
the verdict would be 'natural causes'. If they were not sure which of the
two it was, then their finding would be undetermined.

This about the case that recently went to court. Chiropractor caused the death of a woman when they damaged a blood vessel in her neck and she suffered a stroke.

I question what is causing the pain relief. I've seen the studies that indicate that it is a placebo effect.

Thus, the people are not getting to the bottom of why they have pain. Could be gallstones. I hear the pain comes and goes.

Stuff like that,

ya know?

So why would a taxpayer want to pay for potentially deadly services that don't fix a problem?

 

[Earthborn]

Here are a few interesting episodes of Scientific American Frontiers about alternative medicine (and a few other subjects of interest to skeptics). Check out 'Adjusting the Joints' which is about chiropractic, or 'Needles and Nerves' about acupuncture.

Honest, easy to understand, skeptical, but only for people with good bandwith or patience.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

PBS ***shudders***

I'm almost too scared to go there.

 

[Earthborn]

Why? It is pretty good, you know.

 

[Clancie]

Well, at least some doctors have an open mind about acupuncture.

From Stanford
Stanford Medical News
Acupuncture speeds up healing of chronic and acute injuries, (Dr.) Fredericson says. "Acupuncture is very good at decreasing pain and the inflammatory response, so it helps expedite the rehabilitation process."

A National Institutes of Health panel reviewed the medical literature and concluded in 1997 that acupuncture is effective for postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting, nausea of pregnancy and postoperative dental pain. The panel also agreed that acupuncture can be helpful with many pain-related conditions as a complementary therapy.
l

And....

From Medical College of Wisconsin

At the pain management center at Children’s Hospital of Wisconsin, a major affiliate of the Medical College of Wisconsin...has used acupuncture with success in treating conditions such as

• fibromyalgia (a chronic pain condition affecting muscles and connective tissues),
  
• chronic headaches,
  
• neck pain from whiplash, knee and hip pain from arthritis,
  
• chronic abdominal pain,
  
• asthma,
  
• pain caused by sickle-cell anemia and
  
• even shingles (a painful rash caused by a virus).

ibid

According to a National Institutes of Health panel, convened in November of 1997, clinical studies have shown that acupuncture is (also) helpful in treating

• nausea caused by surgical anesthesia and cancer chemotherapy,
  
• dental pain after surgery,
  
• addiction
  
• menstrual cramps,
  
• tennis elbow,
  
• myofascial (connective tissue) pain,
  
• osteoarthritis,
  
• lower back pain,
  
• carpal tunnel syndrome,
  
• and to assist in stroke rehabilitation.
  
  The World Health Organization lists more than 40 conditions for which acupuncture may be used.

 

[Clancie]

Chiropracty is not an open and shut case either....

Herald Dispatch
Quick relief of symptoms and sustained effectiveness have long attracted consumers to chiropractic care..... According to a 1992 RAND Corp. study, patients see a chiropractor primarily for low back pain and neck pain, though many seek chiropractic care for mid-back pain, extremity problems, headaches and other symptoms as well.

Doctors of chiropractic have long understood the cyclic nature of low back pain, and perhaps this is one of the reasons they consistently rate higher than MDs in patient satisfaction in this area.

In a recent Gallup poll, 90 percent of all people who visited a chiropractor agreed that their care was effective. Successful outcomes in both effectiveness and patient satisfaction, have paved the way for chiropractors to enter the mainstream of health care services. Some have even begun to collaborate with medical doctors in integrated health care practices

Even the Valley Skeptics said this....

.....from Valleyskeptics

There has been alot of controversy over the years about the beneficial effects of chiropractic care, a new study released by The New England Journal of Medicine has cast doubt on the possible benefit from chiropractors.

There have been many stories about how they made people feel better, and I have know family and friends who swear by them, but as the saying goes " anecdotes does not science make. "

Well, I disagree. When it comes to pain management, so called "anecdotes" (i.e. patient satisfaction and description of pain relief) carry considerably more evidential weight than "anecdotes" do with, say, UFO sightings

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Why? It is pretty good, you know.

I'm finding it's excellent! Thank you!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3402709.stm

Dr White said there was no evidence to support this theory, but there was evidence that acupuncture triggered the release of chemicals in the body.

These include serotonin, which plays a role in regulating mood, and endorphins, which are the body's natural painkillers.

Just looking at the background of chiropractors and accupuncturists, I couldn't let either ever touch me. Ew.

I can't believe what the original chiropractor said he could cure with his unproven 'techniques'. What a scammer.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Eos- a word of caution. The theory of chiropractic seems full of holes. Many medical theories are. Treatments may work for reasons wildly at odds with theory. We refine the theory with time and evidence.

My personal experience of chiropractic was highly positive. A chronic problem of pain and muscular weakness in both arms, diagnosed by a physiotherapist as related to neck damage. After neck x-ray, a chiropractor gave a very similar diagnosis, with more detail based on the xray evidence. Manipulative treatment - rapid and inexpensive by comparison with masseur's or physiotherapist's rates- cured the problem which had bothered me for several years. It has not recurred.

This does not mean Chiropractic can treat migraine, cancer or ingrown toenail. It does support the observation that competent manipulation can improve some musculo skeletal problems, which may be contributing to soft tissue (eg nerve ) damage.

Personal anecdote, I appreciate; but from a fairly sceptical source.

As with any treatment (including sports coaching and the like), you must assess the practitioner and decide if he is competent or not. I may have been fortunate in my practitioner.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Eos- a word of caution. The theory of chiropractic seems full of holes. Many medical theories are. Treatments may work for reasons wildly at odds with theory. We refine the theory with time and evidence.

My personal experience of chiropractic was highly positive. A chronic problem of pain and muscular weakness in both arms, diagnosed by a physiotherapist as related to neck damage. After neck x-ray, a chiropractor gave a very similar diagnosis, with more detail based on the xray evidence. Manipulative treatment - rapid and inexpensive by comparison with masseur's or physiotherapist's rates- cured the problem which had bothered me for several years. It has not recurred.

This does not mean Chiropractic can treat migraine, cancer or ingrown toenail. It does support the observation that competent manipulation can improve some musculo skeletal problems, which may be contributing to soft tissue (eg nerve ) damage.

Personal anecdote, I appreciate; but from a fairly sceptical source.

As with any treatment (including sports coaching and the like), you must assess the practitioner and decide if he is competent or not. I may have been fortunate in my practitioner.

You've got to be kidding me. Seems full of holes? Did you even view the video?

He claims to have cured deafness by "realigning" the spine.

The video clearly shows that one does not "realign" anything. Instead, it is just like cracking your knuckles.

I don't know if it is true, but people told me that was a bad idea because it can wear down cartilage and maybe even cause damage.

Your treatment? Heck if getting a massage works, then I'd rather go to a masseuse, and one that won't cause me to have a stroke by "manipulating" my neck. Do you even know what initially caused your ailment?

You need to give examples of treatments that work wildly at odds of the "theory" and are still used by MD's.

Chiros aren't taught about the body, they are taught about "energy", and how that energy must flowly freely through the spine. They claim to correct a flow that is not free, and that can cure EVERYTHING.

***rolls on floor laughing***

No wonder they don't have a clue about vaccines. According to them the spine being popped can cure every disease

***guffaw***.

Okay. I'll get serious now.

If anyone knows anything about the human body, letting air out of spinal joints doesn't make one iota of difference to any ailment.
Their claims are impossible by any stretch of the imagination.

I can't believe what chiropracy is based on.

If you view the video and read the posts, you can see why people want to think it works. It doesn't, and they are deluding themselves.

 

[tracer]

Well, at least some doctors have an open mind about acupuncture.

And by "have an open mind", you mean "say things that I agree with", right?

 

[Clancie]

Posted by tracer

And by "have an open mind", you mean "say things that I agree with", right?

Wrong.

 

[BTox]

Well, at least some doctors have an open mind about acupuncture.

And....

Like homeopathy, the preponderance of the clinical evidence shows acupuncture is no more effective than placebo.