A Real Modern Day Witch Hunt, Conviction and Death Sentance

[RandFan]

Yeah. We civilised westerners would never kidnap people, bang them in jail without charge totally out of reach of legal representation or any known judicial process, and routinely torture them and stuff, would we? Not in the 21st century.

Tu Quoque?

I don't claim that America doesn't commit attroicty. We have our own witch hunts and I hang my head about those.

Some states in America allow children to be neglected to the point of death.

That conceded, I will say that in America many citizens spoke out against the crimes of the Bush admin. It resulted in the Republican Congress getting the boot and Bush's poll numbers were the lowest in history.

 

[Bloodtoes]

Does that mean that Jews are living in some SciFi future, with the hebrew calendar being somewhere around 5500 (sorry, I'm a bad Jew - no matzoh for me - and don't know the actual year)

Yes, yes it does.
And yes, yes they are.

^.^

 

[theprestige]

I've checked my caldendar and yeah, it IS the 21st Century.

No offense, but this kinda seems to me like a form of cultural bigotry. I mean, just because Society A holds certain values at a certain point in human history, it doesn't necessarily follow that:

• Those are the "right" values;
• There are "correct" values for each given historical period;
• That all societies should evolve their value systems at the same rate and towards the same intermediate state or end state.

What, exactly, does the 21st Century have to do with Saudi belief and value systems? Should their society have evolved some other way, or at some other rate?

 

[RandFan]

No offense, but this kinda seems to me like a form of cultural bigotry.

It wasn't meant as such but it's a fair point to bring up.

It depends on your premises. If increased well being and decreased suffering is a good thing then one can in fact find superior cultural aspects. Now, if you don't agree with those then that's fine.

I mean, just because Society A holds certain values at a certain point in human history, it doesn't necessarily follow that:

• Those are the "right" values;
• There are "correct" values for each given historical period;
• That all societies should evolve their value systems at the same rate and toward the same intermediate state or end state.

IMO: Values that increase well being and decrease suffering are the "right" values. This is simply an opinion but I think that in the long run most people would come to agree with those premises if they don't already. The problem then becomes how to best achieve increased well being and decreased suffering?

In times past human societies did not know what we know now. They did their best to survive and provide security and well being for some degree of their citizens (the upper class). I'd gladly judge those societies by the level of their understanding (the light of their times). However I think most people did want increased well being and decreased suffering. If so then we have, demonstrably, some very good solutions (modern liberal democracy, fundamental rights, due process).

What, exactly, does the 21st Century have to do with Saudi belief and value systems? Should their society have evolved some other way, or at some other rate?

Uh....

• It's after the enlightenment.
• Available knowledge has advanced considerably.
• Empiricism and the scientific method are known throughout the world.
• Saudi Arabia is just as capable of figuring out that there is NO SUCH THING AS A WITCH (sorry).
• Saudi Arabia has access to sources of modern liberal philosophy.
• Saudi Arabia has access to the data that would demonstrate to them that freedom, democracy and due process are correlated with higher quality of life.

I honestly believe that there is is much, MUCH goodness, art, history and beauty in Arab Culture. I just think they need to jettison some of their iron age traditions (like killing witches since there is no evidence whatsoever that witches exist).

Thank you.

 

[linusrichard]

Ya know, Rand, we, the whole rest of the world, still owe Arabs a huge debt for their gift of Arabic numerals, Al-Gebra, the Al-Phabet, Al-Capone, and the insertion of enlightened civilization into Europe and Eastern Africa during the Middle Ages, which they did from a motive of purest altruism.

That's Al-Truism, no?

That, and given that he had "witch" tatooed on the back of his neck ...

(Obscure Python reference)

Kudos for using the obscure Python reference. When the talk turns to witches, there is an obvious Python reference, but it's a bit played out, I feel.

 

[Skeptic]

Does that mean that Jews are living in some SciFi future, with the hebrew calendar being somewhere around 5500 (sorry, I'm a bad Jew - no matzoh for me - and don't know the actual year)

5770. But don't tell anybody or I'll vaporize you with my ray gun...

 

[theprestige]

RandFan, doesn't that increased well being and decreased suffering come at the expense of anthropogenic global climate change that will likely cause massive suffering for billions of people, not to mention all the people already being exploited every day to make life a little better for us lucky few?

 

[gtc]

I fully expected to see arguments in this thread along the lines of:

"But, but, but the Christians".

And I was half expecting to see:

"But, but, but the Jews".

I really didn't expect to see:

"But, but, but the global warmening"

Come on people, how can we be worried about the death of one man when, right now in the skies over Britain, there are polar bears plummeting to their deaths.

 

[plumjam]

Witches have to be killed.
If you give them a spell in prison there's no knowing what havoc they'll create.


..now where's my drum kit?

 

[uk_dave]

And that donation doesn't even have to be money, they have suggestions for other ways you can help them.

By casting spells?

 

[Questioninggeller]

Man on Death Row for "making predictions" in Saudi Arabia

TV Presenter On Death Row For Witchcraft
Tuesday, November 24, 2009; 08:38 pm
by Sky News

Ali Sibat is not even a Saudi national. The Lebanese citizen was only visiting Saudi Arabia on pilgrimage when he was arrested in Medina last year.

A court in the city condemned him as a witch on November 9.

The only evidence presented in court was reportedly the claim he appeared regularly on Lebanese satellite issuing general advice on life and making predictions about the future.
...
"The crime of witchcraft is being used against all sorts of behavior, with the cruel threat of state sanctioned executions."

Ali Sibat's supporters say he was denied a lawyer at his trial and was tricked into making a confession.

He is not the only victim of Saudi Arabia's literal witch hunt. Human Rights Watch says two other people have been arrested on similar charges in the last month alone.
...

Full: Sky News

 

[PixyMisa]

Did the predictions come true?

 

[GlennB]

Tu Quoque?

No. The witchcraft business is disgusting.
So is waterboarding somebody 183 times in one month (if indeed that report is true).
It's more a motes and beams thing.

 

[Darat]

It wasn't meant as such but it's a fair point to bring up.

It depends on your premises. If increased well being and decreased suffering is a good thing then one can in fact find superior cultural aspects. Now, if you don't agree with those then that's fine.


IMO: Values that increase well being and decrease suffering are the "right" values. This is simply an opinion but I think that in the long run most people would come to agree with those premises if they don't already. The problem then becomes how to best achieve increased well being and decreased suffering?

In times past human societies did not know what we know now. They did their best to survive and provide security and well being for some degree of their citizens (the upper class). I'd gladly judge those societies by the level of their understanding (the light of their times). However I think most people did want increased well being and decreased suffering. If so then we have, demonstrably, some very good solutions (modern liberal democracy, fundamental rights, due process).


Uh....

• It's after the enlightenment.
• Available knowledge has advanced considerably.
• Empiricism and the scientific method are known throughout the world.
• Saudi Arabia is just as capable of figuring out that there is NO SUCH THING AS A WITCH (sorry).
• Saudi Arabia has access to sources of modern liberal philosophy.
• Saudi Arabia has access to the data that would demonstrate to them that freedom, democracy and due process are correlated with higher quality of life.

I honestly believe that there is is much, MUCH goodness, art, history and beauty in Arab Culture. I just think they need to jettison some of their iron age traditions (like killing witches since there is no evidence whatsoever that witches exist).

Thank you.

And how does all this relate to a dictatorship that maintains power by force?

 

[jakesteele]

you forgot the Al-Gore-Rythm, which came of note recently as it was integral in creating the internet.

He also forgot to mention oil.

 

[Dancing David]

With allies like these ....

"We have met the enemy and he is us." -Pogo

 

[Skeptic]

No. The witchcraft business is disgusting.
So is waterboarding somebody 183 times in one month (if indeed that report is true).

And we, the KKK, are really sorry that so-and-so killed Mr. Jones, a black man... BUT what about all those

Edited by Tricky: 

Edited for rule 10.

killing each other in Africa? Why can't we talk about THAT, instead?!

 

[RandFan]

RandFan, doesn't that increased well being and decreased suffering come at the expense of anthropogenic global climate change that will likely cause massive suffering for billions of people, not to mention all the people already being exploited every day to make life a little better for us lucky few?

You are making a false dichotamy. You are in essense saying we can either have increased well being and decreased suffering or the survival of the planet.

Do you know of any environmental activists who are advocating Islam to save the planet?

 

[RandFan]

No. The witchcraft business is disgusting.
So is waterboarding somebody 183 times in one month (if indeed that report is true).
It's more a motes and beams thing.

Yeah, see, that's the very definition of Tu Quoque.

However, I didn't just respond with Tu Quoque. I conceded the errors of America. Are you honestly saying that no criticism is allowed by anyone (no one is perfect)?

Hell, we need to shut down the forum...

Really?

 

[RandFan]

And how does all this relate to a dictatorship that maintains power by force?

I honestly don't understand your question.