A Rational Argument for Continued Existence Afte Death

If it's all completely internal to you, what's it got to do with us? It's like you're saying flat-out that even though you've asked the question in a public forum, no one you've asked will have the answer.

Because I am interested in discussion and criticism regarding this idea, that is why I brought it up. However, there are two obstacles and I aim to get rid of them as fast as possible.

First, people think I am talking about something other than what I am talking about. The number of posts that refute an "afterlife" or what have you attest to the occurence of this error.

Second, people attack the wrong portions of my argument, for whatever reason, and it is a waste of time since it will only lead to bickering that doesn't address the argument itself. In this case, there is no point in attacking my premises, because as I said they are all true. If there is something that renders my argument invalid it will be my inferences.
 
1) Have you never been asleep? Are you aware of your existence then?

This is a very good point. And no, I am not aware of my existence at all times during sleep.

However, when I imagine what these periods are like, there is always my sleeping body in the picture, presumably containing a dormant consciousness that can spring back into full existence at any time. If one were to ask "what is the source of this perception in your imagination" I could just reply "it is my unconscious body picturing itself."

So even though I am not aware of my existence at those times, I believe it is still there (just dormant) when I think about such times.

You say you cannot imagine non-existence; you must have a vastly different imagination from mine.

If you can imagine non-existence, then tell me what it is like?
 
If you take as your premises such internal ideas, that there is no existence "for you" outside your life, then it's true: you will never die. There will never be a time in the universe defined by your existence where you do not exist. Your existence is boundless and eternal, in the context of your own existence, just as the universe is boundless in the context of being the universe. It just unfortunately so happens that, unlike the universe, you have another universe outside of your own. In that one, you'll be dead. I was going to say "get used to it," but of course you really don't have to get used to it. You won't be there.
 
This is a very good point. And no, I am not aware of my existence at all times during sleep.

However, when I imagine what these periods are like, there is always my sleeping body in the picture, presumably containing a dormant consciousness that can spring back into full existence at any time. If one were to ask "what is the source of this perception in your imagination" I could just reply "it is my unconscious body picturing itself."

So even though I am not aware of my existence at those times, I believe it is still there (just dormant) when I think about such times.
So if you presume existence, then you have always experienced existence. If Interesting Ian were still here, he might ask whether you can be certain that the you that wakes up is the same as the you that fell asleep. You are assuming that it is, of course. And you have no reason not to. But you dismissed the experience (or rather, lack therof) before birth; you are clearly picking and choosing which elements of "existence" and perception therof to attend to.
If you can imagine non-existence, then tell me what it is like?
The bit in blue, without the bit in red (which is an assumption, anyway). So... in a word, no, I cannot tell you what it is like--it is not "like" anything; if it were, it would not be non-existence. But it is not my task to describe it accurately; it is merely to imagine it. I can imagine lots of things, imperfectly. When I cannot perfectly imagine the texture of the sandstone of an Egyptian pyramid, I fault my imagination rather than deny the existence of the pyramid.
 
2) It is impossible for me to even imagine non-existence.
To me, this sounds like a variation of Argument from Personal Incredulity. "I, personally, can not imagine non-existence, therefore non-existence could not possibly happen".

This would be a reflection of your limits of perception (perhaps one shared by all humans), but not necessarily a reflection of reality. Logically, there is no reason to assume reality only works in ways we can imagine.

(Edited to be a reply to point #2 instead of #7.)
 
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I read Descartes some time ago, got the point, and the rebuttals, and the analyses, and this never occured to me during that time, so thank you for trying to make me look an undergraduate twit but in this case your read on me is incorrect.

I need not try to do what you're doing so well yourself...

Your argument bears a number of similarities to Descartes argument for mind/body duality - both rely on the ambiguous way we use language to create a statement that looks like a valid predicate, but that is not. Descartes was breaking new ground with his work, so we can forgive him his mistakes. You're just rehashing old news.
 
... and the truth of it has no bearing on whether it is rational for me to think one way or the other.

Actually, if someting is true, then it is more rational to believe that than to believe a falsehood.

I don't know where you've gotten the idea that the truth value of a proposition has no bearing on whether we should believe it or not...:confused:
 
Yes. If you read carefully, however, you will note that I never actually claim to believe anything, only that it is rational for me to believe it.


I truly dislike this type of discussion. I've been thinking about why this is so.

What did you hope to achieve by creating this thread?
 
Granted, determining whether a statement like " blah blah seems to have greater weight" may be fairly difficult to determine, and perhaps only the one making the statement could say for sure. But it is still plain old logical thought.

No, no. That's not how it works.

Using "Seems to have greater weight" to come to a logical conclusion is a fallacy, and an emotional one. Unless you can logically describe how it seems to have greater weight, your perception is decidedly an emotionally-driven one. In logic, there is no "A seems like B, therefore A=B".
 
Isn't it about as rational as saying "I was brought up in a Spiritualist family, and all my life I've experienced spirits being contacted and never encountered scepticism. Therefore it's rational to believe that spirits exist". ?
 
1) All I have known, my entire existence, is existence.

2) It is impossible for me to even imagine non-existence.

3) I understand that in the world I perceive, people cease to exist to me after they die.

4) As a materialist I know my mind will cease to be supported by my physical brain after I die, and hence, my mind will cease to exist as well.

5) My understanding of 3) and 4) are predicated, however, on my own existence.

6) Thus 1) and 2) seem to be of much greater weight than 3) and 4).

7) Thus, it is rational for me to not believe my existence will end upon my death.

You forgot the part about all the evidence showing you didn't exist for the first 14.7 billion years of the universe, and for god knows how long before that.

True, it passed pretty quickly for you, but there you go. I imagine the time after I die will pass pretty quickly, too, before I am resurrected somehow.


Actually, there's several rational reasons an athiest might think they'll survive past death:

1) The techno-rapture. At some point in the future, humanity will achieve sufficient technological ability they will be able to resurrect dead humans -- perhaps even those whose bodies have rotted away. If you have a body with brain reasonably intact, it's certainly just an engineering issue.

This is tangentially related to the idea of transhumanism and the Omega point, which is one such way this might be accomplished, but not the only one.

2) In the tradition of WhatBadgersEat.com, you may be living in a computer simulation already. This is an inversion of the old argument from the 1970's which suggested we were about to destroy ourselves.

In that argument, since you exist, you most likely would have been born in the largest bulge of humanity rather than a long time ago, which would be far more unlikely. Hence if humanity extended into the indefinite future, where the bulge would grow ever-larger, then you would probably have been born then, in the future, rather than now.

You weren't. Hence there must be no indefinite future, and Doomsday must therefore be right around the corner.

This simulation argument inverts that by suggesting that, yes, humanity will extend into the future, at least far enough to be able to create massive simulations, which will have many more virtual citizens than "real world" ones. Hence the vast majority of people who will ever live will live in those simulations.

Hence, statistically, you are probably in one of those simulations.


The flaw with both arguments, if you ask me, is that some people, of course, are born in the real world, even back in the distant past. Every one of them could come to these two conclusions. And every one would be wrong. Hence the theories give us no new information, and is thus useless in a partitioning/decision theory sense.

Having said that, decision theory would, however, validly conclude that the proper thing to do is presume everyone was in a simulation, because (in theory) 99% of the time you'd be correct. And unless you can come up with a better judgement algorithm, that isn't too shabby.

The only thing remaining is to judge how likely it is we will successfully not kill ourselves off and develop simulations and want to populate them with non-trivial numbers of "people"

It's important to point out that these "simulated" people would have to be real, conscious people (though automata may also exist) and hence are not really "simulations" but real people with a (perhaps) radically different physical substrate instantiating them. Searle pointed out how consciousness, being a real thing, must therefore be created by some real-world physics (whether known or not) and therefore cannot be purely derivative of information processing. And therefore the old philosophical notion of replacing neurons with electronics, or buckets and pulleys, probably would fail.
 
When I cannot perfectly imagine the texture of the sandstone of an Egyptian pyramid, I fault my imagination rather than deny the existence of the pyramid.

As would I. However, if I cannot in any way fathom such a thing, then I will deny its existence. In this case, that means denying the existence of non-existence.
 
This would be a reflection of your limits of perception (perhaps one shared by all humans), but not necessarily a reflection of reality. Logically, there is no reason to assume reality only works in ways we can imagine.

Reality in general, whatever that means, no. However, I am claiming that there is a very good reason to assume that reality as we perceive it only works in ways we can imagine -- otherwise I don't think we could perceive it in any way.
 
Actually, if someting is true, then it is more rational to believe that than to believe a falsehood.

Only if you are aware of that truth or falsehood.

I don't know where you've gotten the idea that the truth value of a proposition has no bearing on whether we should believe it or not...:confused:
Basic philosophy? Only what we think is the truth value of a proposition has a bearing on whether we should believe it or not.
 
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