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A Question on Abiogenesis

And because you can't see it, it doesn't exist?

It's more than that - because he can't see it, not only does a rational explanation not exist, this is de facto proof that an irrational one (and a very specifically irrational one) must do,
 
I think he's trying to convince me that there is a rational explanation for the creation of the universe, and I'm saying that I don't see what that explanation is.
I'm not sure what you mean by "rational explanation".

Do you have an "irrational explanation" for the creation of the universe?

"Irrational explanation" sounds slightly oxymoronic to me. We might have an explanation or we might not, but what does it mean to have an "irrational explanation"?
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "rational explanation".
An explanation consistent with the laws of physics.

Do you have an "irrational explanation" for the creation of the universe?
Sure. There was a supernatural event.

"Irrational explanation" sounds slightly oxymoronic to me. We might have an explanation or we might not, but what does it mean to have an "irrational explanation"?
An explanation inconsistent with the laws of physics.
 
An explanation consistent with the laws of physics.

Sure. There was a supernatural event.

An explanation inconsistent with the laws of physics.
By "the laws of physics," do you mean our current best understanding of how the world works, or do you mean how the world really works?

Obviously, the world works however it works. So, nothing that happens can be inconsistent with that sort of "laws of physics."

As far as the other sort goes, we change the laws of physics, when necessary, to be consistent with what we observe.

So I still don't quite understand what you're getting at.
 
By "the laws of physics," do you mean our current best understanding of how the world works, or do you mean how the world really works?

Obviously, the world works however it works. So, nothing that happens can be inconsistent with that sort of "laws of physics."

As far as the other sort goes, we change the laws of physics, when necessary, to be consistent with what we observe.

So I still don't quite understand what you're getting at.
I'm getting at that, not only is the creation of the universe unexplainable by our current best understanding of how the world works, but there is no realistic prospect that it will ever be explained.
 
I'm getting at that, not only is the creation of the universe unexplainable by our current best understanding of how the world works, but there is no realistic prospect that it will ever be explained.
There is every prospect it will be; there are, in fact, currently at least two hypotheses (brane collision and Guth's "free lunch" vacuum fluctuation scenario) that are completely consistent with all we observe, but cannot yet be proven because we can't test their more esoteric predictions. Not being able to test esoteric predictions is not proof they cannot be correct; merely proof that we don't yet have powerful enough mathematics and powerful enough particle accelerators to do so. The fact that there are two such hypotheses, not inconsistent with any observed fact, and not inconsistent with any physical theory, says that you are 100% wrong, that we can and will rationally explain the origin of the universe, and not in the sweet bye and bye but in the near future. Religion as an explanation of the origin, or any other characteristic, of the physical universe is obsolete and has been since the seventeenth century. If you can find some other use for it, fine; but stop trying to convince people that there is some big powerful dude up in the sky, because we can look with telescopes and see there isn't.

As my signature says, unquestioning belief is proof not of faith, but of doubt. If you are incapable, as you seem to be, of questioning your beliefs, you have already admitted, though you will deny it, that if you do so, they will fail; otherwise there would be no need to avoid questioning them. And anyone can read what you write and see that.

I have faith that the universe is ultimately completely explainable by rational inquiry; and I welcome arguments that seem to question that faith, it is a tenet of that faith that I do so. It, unlike religion, is ultimately self-consistent in that regard. I need only have faith that what I sense is actually connected with some "reality" "out there," and that "I" am the same "me" that "I" was a moment, or a lifetime, ago, and that all of you are just like me in both those regards, and from that I can derive a relatively complete and highly useful understanding of the world around me, from which I can construct values, which then lead to ethics. And to deny this is a self-swallowing solipsism, stating that you all, and ultimately I myself, have no real existence. As Camus wrote, the alternative is suicide. I choose life; I choose to believe that what I sense is real; I choose to believe that this is all really real and really happening to me; I choose to believe that the products of my reasoning concerning what I sense, and its internal self-consistency, indicate the existence of a world apart from the direction of any agency whatsoever, a world that has its own independent existence, and evolves according to its own internally self-consistent set of rules, rules which I and others like me can discover by investigation and careful thought.

You, on the other hand, choose to believe that there is some question as to whether this is real or not; to believe that there are ultimately undiscoverable and inconceivable "realities" of which we cannot aspire to gain understanding, and that these "realities" have chosen to communicate with neolithic sheep herders, and made no serious attempt at communication since. Given that every other primitive human society on the face of the Earth, and in the history of the human race, has developed a set of explanations of natural phenomena that deal with such undiscoverable and inconceivable "realities," and that without exception these explanations have been proven superstition as we have gained knowledge of how things really work, why do you, and why should we, believe one more superstitious and ignorant explanation? You have not given one single argument in favor of this; all you can do is point out that our explanations so far are incomplete, and pretend that this means that they will always remain so. You have no PRO arguments; only CON arguments. And the nature of your assertion is that you cannot produce anything but negatives.

That is why I, and those like me who can think clearly, dismiss your superstitions; and once the scales have fallen from our eyes, we also note that a great deal of evil comes from those beliefs, and find ourselves rejecting them even further for that reason. People have been burned alive, women and men have been raped and tortured, buildings and airplanes full of people have been destroyed, wars have been and are now being fought, over these superstitions. Is it not time we grew up and stopped killing people for lies? And if we continue to believe in these lies, how can we ever stop having these evil things happen?
 
There is every prospect it will be; there are, in fact, currently at least two hypotheses (brane collision and Guth's "free lunch" vacuum fluctuation scenario) that are completely consistent with all we observe, but cannot yet be proven because we can't test their more esoteric predictions.
Let's suppose we can eventually test their predictions and one of them is proven. How would that resolve the singularity that naive physics shows existed at the time of the Big Bang?

People have been burned alive, women and men have been raped and tortured, buildings and airplanes full of people have been destroyed, wars have been and are now being fought, over these superstitions. Is it not time we grew up and stopped killing people for lies? And if we continue to believe in these lies, how can we ever stop having these evil things happen?
Most religions emphasize peace and tolerance, but there will always be religious fanatics. But a few non-religious fanatics also come to mind; for example, Mao, Stalin, and Pol Pot. And I think you'll find that, when it comes to killing innocents, the latter make folks like the Crusaders and Bin Laden look like amateurs.
 
Let's suppose we can eventually test their predictions and one of them is proven. How would that resolve the singularity that naive physics shows existed at the time of the Big Bang?
By showing that there was no such singularity, which is in fact what most physicists and cosmologists think is the answer anyway. The reason it's "naive" physics is because it doesn't take into account things we already know are true, such as the merging of the electromagnetic and weak forces at high temperature and pressure and over short time periods.

Most religions emphasize peace and tolerance, but there will always be religious fanatics. But a few non-religious fanatics also come to mind; for example, Mao, Stalin, and Pol Pot. And I think you'll find that, when it comes to killing innocents, the latter make folks like the Crusaders and Bin Laden look like amateurs.
So it's OK to burn people alive as long as you don't kill as many people as Stalin did? Evil is evil.
 
I'm getting at that, not only is the creation of the universe unexplainable by our current best understanding of how the world works, but there is no realistic prospect that it will ever be explained.
I think that you have in mind a not-very-well-defined but unduly limited concept of explanation. At the very worst, we can always simply say, "ok, besides the other laws of physics that we know about, there is one more law of physics, which says that a universe comes into being." This is really no different from saying, "a supernatural event caused the universe to come into being." Why do you consider the latter to qualify as a satisfactory explanation, if an irrational one, but the former not to be an explanation at all?

How are we supposed to decide whether to classify an event as natural or supernatural? Do you have some specific criteria in mind? The distinction seems meaningless to me.

Whatever happens, happens. That's about it. I don't know what sort of grand philosophical conclusions, if any, you think we ought to draw from things happening one way rather than another.

From http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/ae63.htm:
Einstein liked inventing phrases such as "God does not play dice," "The Lord is subtle but not malicious." On one occasion Bohr answered, "Einstein, stop telling God what to do."

You think it's silly to suppose that "the universe sprung up from 'an empty, dimensionless, timeless nothingness'" without any "impetus". On what do you base this opinion? If that's what happened, then that's what happened.
 
In any case - "God did it" is not an answer, it's just another set of questions which are far more complex, far more difficult to reconcile and far more awkward to answer than any materialist position.
 
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It seems that bacteria are very good at swapping genes with one another which says much about the difficulty of building a sngle clear tree and leaving open the possibility that there never was a single common ancestor.
Still, there's no evidence to suggest life arose very many times or continues to arise anew or that panspermia hypotheses are valid.

Perhaps you were not saying that but I did want to be clear about the relatedness of the genomes of all multicellular organisms we have examined so far and the fact the tree only appears to have 3 branches if more than one.
 
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If we go back to the very early world, it is not inconceivable that there were many 'first replicators', all with very different codes. If it became advantageous to be more like another's code (perhaps because it is catalysing its own building blocks, perhaps because it's a plentiful 'food source'), variants that are might come to dominate.....
To be purely speculative on my part I'll note an analogy with viral genetic drift.

Each viral mutation that is successful produces billions or more copies. One of those billions that mutates again produces billions more that now have 2 variants from the first. And on it goes until in the case of something like the influenza virus, if you had a virus with multiple mutations that was one mutation away from a significant change, say a mutation allowing H5N1 bird flu (HPAI H5N1 to be specific) to adapt to become an efficient human pathogen, you wouldn't have one virus one mutation away, you would have billions of viruses all one mutation away.

So if you had a precursor in your chemical soup one molecular change away from becoming or leading to (in the case of RNA) a strand of DNA capable of becoming the first true organism, you might be looking at billions of mostly identical precursors. In such a case life could have been arising multiple times but all from the same pathway. That allows more chances for success.

Assuming logically that replication of these precursor molecules was occurring, having more than one spark would be more likely to get the fire started. At some point, when enough cells were formed to start filling up the biosphere containing the chemical soup, the cells might start consuming the remaining precursors faster than they could make that pivotal change. At such a point in time, the cells that had formed might be very similar and appear to be related.

It only makes sense that whatever replication was occurring in the prebiotic period it did not consist of billions of dissimilar RNA molecules. At some point, the molecules better at replicating would dominate just as organisms better at replicating do. A transitional phase at least should have operated under the same selection process principles as postbiotic selection principles do.
 
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And by the way, Rodney, I noted that you did not answer several points. I intend to keep bringing them up until you answer them, or admit that you have no answers, or abandon the conversation because they make you uncomfortable so that everyone else will know you have no answers.

1. As my signature says, unquestioning belief is proof not of faith but of doubt. Are you prepared to admit that you do not have faith, but instead have doubt?

2. Do you question whether the universe is governed by laws that are ultimately discoverable and comprehensible? If so, on what basis other than a book written by neolithic sheep herders, who were incapable of even conceiving of the "universe" as we now know it to be?

3. Do you deny that what I sense is real, and that what I can deduce from it is also real? If not, then how can you maintain that there's some big powerful dude in the sky, when I can look in a telescope and see there's not?

4. What positive argument, other than a book by stone-age sheep herders, can you produce to support your contention that there's a big powerful dude in the sky that we can't see with telescopes? And don't try "god of the gaps," IOW basing your unquestioning belief in a big powerful dude in the sky that we can't see with telescopes on the fact that we don't know everything; it's logically inconsistent, and makes you look ignorant to boot.
 
Still, there's no evidence to suggest life arose very many times or continues to arise anew or that panspermia hypotheses are valid.
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I stumbled into this thread wondering if anyone would bring up panspermia where the topic is abiogenesis, and see that Skeptigirl did.

Francis Crick ( DNA's Crick and Watson) was of the opinion that there may be insufficient evidence of biogenesis here on Earth. He believed life may have had origins elsewhere and migrated here... even 'directed' here. If you are interested in that idea either to learn about it or debunk it, an intro is at:

http://www.panspermia.org/oseti.htm
 

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