A question for believers

[LettristLoon]

Irish:

You said...

'I'm happy reading books, going for walks, eating crumpets in front of the fire on a cold Autumn afternoon, watching my kids grow up, and talking to my friends over a nice glass of pinot grigio. Why the need for anything more? I have to be honest (and this might just be a matter of temperament), I'm utterly baffled by why anybody would want "magical powers"'

There is a great deal more to faith than its intellectual and emotional components, as they apply to well-fed, well-watered, well-educated folks in countries where opportunity, if not endless, is readily available for the average Joe.

Thing is, "faith" isn't most common among those who can read books, go for walks, eat crumpets, watch their kids grow up (in relative peace and quiet) and chat up their chums over nice glasses of pinot grigio. When faith occurs among these people (you, me, most of the other visitors to this forum), the root of the thing can usually be found in a) a time of great deprivation, emotional or material, or b) in a cultural tradition, tracing its roots to a time of great deprivation, emotional AND material.

I neither want, nor need, magical powers. But then again, I'm pretty successful, socially, romantically, professionally, emotionally. Magical powers would provide me with nothing but needless excess--and I'm self-aware and well-adjusted enough to know that needless excess does not lead to happiness.

But most magical thinkers aren't like me. Ever been to a pagan gathering, where all the crazy Wiccans get together? An enormous number of those folks are from the trailer parks. They're struggling financially, they have too many children, they don't know what to do with themselves. They have every reason to desire pie in the sky when they die--their lives are ◊◊◊◊! When people with good lives, like you and me, are suffering through hard times, we look ahead to the day when life will return to its normal course.

But if "hard times" IS the normal course of your life, when can you expect things to right themselves? What can you look forward to?

When criticizing the believers, always remember whose shoes you inhabited to get where you're at, and how different those believer's shoes may be.

Peace,
- B

oh, ps: This has already semi-been addressed, I see. Sorry!

 

[Irish Murdoch]

When criticizing the believers, always remember whose shoes you inhabited to get where you're at, and how different those believer's shoes may be.

Peace,
- B

oh, ps: This has already semi-been addressed, I see. Sorry!

Which is why I said:

"The everyday is fantastic, if only we open our eyes to it (I know that there are people for whom it is not fantastic, of course, but I mean for the sorts of people likely to be using a forum such as this)."

The point is, I know many, many middle class pinot grigio-sipping types who are believers in all sorts of esoteric things. Indeed, in the UK, I think that most believers in, say, "New-Age-ism" come from higher socio-economic classes, and have "good" lives.

For myself, I have been as poor as a church mouse, but still never found the need to believe in anything "other". When I was poor, I could still see sunsets.

 

[evilgoldtoesock]

There are number of schools of Zen Buddhism that advocate the idea that the everyday experience IS enlightenment, and that everybody is already enlightened, but that few people have the clarity of mind to realize it. Pretty good reasoning, especially coming from a religion.

Here's my two cents:

The mundane gives rise to the spiritual, I believe. That is, in living ordinary life, and by taking care of each other as human beings, we create a "spiritual existence."

The "spiritual realm," so to speak, is made up of our perceptions of the world and of each other. The manifestations of this so-called "spiritual realm" are not ghosts, gods, angels, or demons, but are forms of art, literature, and music.

If you want to experience part of this, ahem, spirit realm I speak of, just go online...

It of course, ultimately all comes back to a series of electrical and chemical reactions, but what in the universe doesn't?

 

[evilgoldtoesock]

Hmm, some people may find this strangely related to the discussion at hand:

http://www.crispinsartwell.com/externalism.htm

Or, perhaps this should be discussed in a new thread?

 

[Interesting Ian]

I recently made a point on another thread that I think (I could be wrong!) warrants a thread of its own. It's a point that I would genuinely (i.e., not in a sneering sceptical sort of way, though I am a sceptic) like to see answered by believers in magical powers, or the afterlife, or "higher planes". I'd be interested to know what you think.

Here's what I wrote on the other thread:

'I'm happy reading books, going for walks, eating crumpets in front of the fire on a cold Autumn afternoon, watching my kids grow up, and talking to my friends over a nice glass of pinot grigio. Why the need for anything more? I have to be honest (and this might just be a matter of temperament), I'm utterly baffled by why anybody would want "magical powers"'

The thought is, why does anybody want to believe in something "beyond" the everyday? The everyday is fantastic, if only we open our eyes to it (I know that there are people for whom it is not fantastic, of course, but I mean for the sorts of people likely to be using a forum such as this).

It seems to me that wanting magical powers, wanting to live after death, and so on, is a flight from finitude. Me, I'm in love with finitude, hopelessly, deliriously, passionately in love with it! Sorry, came over all poetic there .... Am I weird for finding finitude great? Isn't finitude the necessary condition of our being who we are? For those who believe in magic: Isn't it fantastic not to have too much control or power over events--isn't there a joy in that? For those who believe in an afterlife: isn't it wonderful to have a temporal boundary to our lives? (As a child, I always used to think how terrible eternal life in heaven, or anywhere else, would be ....)

I don't believe in magic, and I don't believe in an afterlife. But here's the rub: if I was given the choice between living in a magical (complete with afterlife) or a non-magical universe, I'd pick the non-magical: the universe where I was essentially and ineluctably finite. Every time.

So, my point is that there's another question to be asked of believers. "How do you know that's true?" is one question. But "Why on earth would you want it to be true?" is another.

It's hard to know if you're being serious or not. Of course we can be happy if the Universe is ultimately absurd and our lives are ultimately absurd, but it is most peculiar for someone to suggest that an ultimate goal or purpose to existence is actually undesirable. If for example, as I believe, love and a complete empathy and knowledge/understanding of all things is the ultimate goal of existence, then why should that be undesirable? Why is it more desirable to cease to exist for the whole of eternity rather than reach such a state of complete love, empathy, and understanding of all things? And it certainly doesn't detract from your present experiences. Indeed, if you are normal, it will vastly enhance them.

But since you're so fond of quoting Bertrand Russell, here is a quote from him which sums up the desperate state of affairs should the modern western zeitgeist be correct.


"That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins – all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built."
-Bertrand Russell

 

[Interesting Ian]

Re: Re: A question for believers

But I know there's real science behind it, so even if it's wrong, it's probably a lot closer to being true than magical spells. Isn't trying to understand it worth a lot more of my time than the study of something that only exists if you believe it - and maybe not even then?

How do you know magical spells don't work? Have you done extensive experimentation? Is there some peer reviewed research you could point me to?

It's sad. I guess the believers are so insecure they want to be truly knowledgeable about something. And what's better than being knowledgeable about the paranormal? After all, no matter how outrageous your claim, you can get credulous people to believe it. Must be great for the ego, if bad for the intellect.

The people on here are so completely clueless. I find it absolutely astounding the fact that people unthinkingly and unquestioningly embrace their cultures beliefs and attitudes towards the world. If this were not breathtakingly stupid enough, they then have the effrontery to call people, who attempt to think for themselves, as being stupid. WOW!!

 

[Interesting Ian]

To have fairies and visiting aliens and a God who loves us and made us in a day and a Santa Claus and a water based remedy for colds would be nice.

And also having a self would be nice. Yes that's right. Materialism, which is the worldview that Skeptics embrace, does not believe in the existence of a self. All there is are experiences without any experiencers (experients). So it's not just a question of not believing in Santa Claus and magic bunnies. They even deny that you have a self!. This is not just not nice, this is as absurd and a preposterous a notion as anything could possibly be.

Moreover we do not have free will, we are just machines living out our purposeless lives in a purposeless Universe, and we will all very soon cease to exist forevermore. And you do not even have a self! WOW!!

OK, I appreciate the fact that you think a life after death is ridiculous. But having no self and no free will?? Just operating according to physical laws so you have no more free will than the Earth orbiting the Sun?? Love being one and the very same thing as chemicals acting in the brain?? I could go on and on.

And no good reasons or compelling evidence to believe in any of these mind numbing counter-intuitive and desperate interpretations of our selves and the world we inhabit.

Oh well, people can believe what they want. {shrugs}

 

[Interesting Ian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A question for believers

The light from some of the the stars you see at night left those stars thousands of years ago.

Oh yeah?? Care to verify that??

 

[Interesting Ian]

I am a died in the wool sceptic but I would LOVE if if the Woo woo stuff had even a slight portion of truth.

I would love to have esp or psi, I would love to levitate or live on air, I would love to live forever…

However it is all a pile of CRAP…

Yeah, let's just ignore the overwhelming evidence

It's crap because it contradicts the modern western zeitgeist. How profound

 

[Irish Murdoch]

Re: Re: A question for believers

It's hard to know if you're being serious or not. Of course we can be happy if the Universe is ultimately absurd and our lives are ultimately absurd, but it is most peculiar for someone to suggest that an ultimate goal or purpose to existence is actually undesirable.

No, I'm being serious. I don't think my life is absurd at all, though. I like it a lot, and it seems to me enormously meaningful. It just doesn't need to get that meaning from anything outside it.

If for example, as I believe, love and a complete empathy and knowledge/understanding of all things is the ultimate goal of existence, then why should that be undesirable?

Well, I certainly believe that love and empathy are the purposes of my life, yes. But again, that purpose doesn't have to be built into the fabric of the universe, or be part of some plan. And the love and empathy certainly doesn't have to go on for limitless time.

Why is it more desirable to cease to exist for the whole of eternity rather than reach such a state of complete love, empathy, and understanding of all things? And it certainly doesn't detract from your present experiences. Indeed, if you are normal, it will vastly enhance them.

Well, again, I agree that love and empathy are hugely important. But, oddly, I think that those features are enhanced by a whole-hearted grasping of finitude. But I can only speak for myself. And maybe you're right--maybe I'm not normal. I said at the outset that this could just be a temperamental thing.

But since you're so fond of quoting Bertrand Russell, here is a quote from him which sums up the desperate state of affairs should the modern western zeitgeist be correct.

Shouldn't that be Zeitgeist? And I think that I'm very far from embracing the dominant Zeitgeist in what I say. Dare I whisper this? I think that, in a deep sense, fully to embrace finitude is to live ... gasp! ... religiously.

"That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins – all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built."
-Bertrand Russell [/B]

Well, the silly old sod's wrong!

 

[Irish Murdoch]

And also having a self would be nice. Yes that's right. Materialism, which is the worldview that Skeptics embrace, does not believe in the existence of a self. All there is are experiences without any experiencers (experients). So it's not just a question of not believing in Santa Claus and magic bunnies. They even deny that you have a self!. This is not just not nice, this is as absurd and a preposterous a notion as anything could possibly be.

Not a fan of Buddhism then, Ian?

 

[LostAngeles]

And also having a self would be nice. Yes that's right. Materialism, which is the worldview that Skeptics embrace, does not believe in the existence of a self. All there is are experiences without any experiencers (experients). So it's not just a question of not believing in Santa Claus and magic bunnies. They even deny that you have a self!. This is not just not nice, this is as absurd and a preposterous a notion as anything could possibly be.

Moreover we do not have free will, we are just machines living out our purposeless lives in a purposeless Universe, and we will all very soon cease to exist forevermore. And you do not even have a self! WOW!!

OK, I appreciate the fact that you think a life after death is ridiculous. But having no self and no free will?? Just operating according to physical laws so you have no more free will than the Earth orbiting the Sun?? Love being one and the very same thing as chemicals acting in the brain?? I could go on and on.

And no good reasons or compelling evidence to believe in any of these mind numbing counter-intuitive and desperate interpretations of our selves and the world we inhabit.

Oh well, people can believe what they want. {shrugs}

OW! Stop beating me with this "lack of self"! Ow!

Where did I say any of that? Also, I don't really see where the lack of free will comes in. Also-also, what's so wrong with love being a chemical reaction? I mean, that's one hell of a reaction.

 

[dann]

Originally posted by (increasingly un-)Interesting Ian OK, I appreciate the fact that you think a life after death is ridiculous. But having no self and no free will?? Just operating according to physical laws so you have no more free will than the Earth orbiting the Sun?? Love being one and the very same thing as chemicals acting in the brain?? I could go on and on.

And no good reasons or compelling evidence to believe in any of these mind numbing counter-intuitive and desperate interpretations of our selves and the world we inhabit.

Oh well, people can believe what they want. {shrugs}

You not only could go on and on inventing an opponent who exists only in your own imagination, you apparently insist on doing so
So who is being "mind numbing", "counter intuitive" and "desperate"?
"one and the very same thing as"!

{shrugs}

 

[chillzero]

Re: Re: Re: A question for believers

No, I'm being serious. I don't think my life is absurd at all, though. I like it a lot, and it seems to me enormously meaningful. It just doesn't need to get that meaning from anything outside it.

For me, I believe this is the crux of it.
In my experience, believing in alternatives to proven scientific facts comes from a need to have something else. For myself, things weren't so good, and it was quite handy to have something else to apportion some blame to.

It's ok that I had that car accident - it's all part of the bigger scheme of my fate, and a magical protection ensured I was not killed ....
.... hmmmm that wrong decision I made that led to me being scammed and embarrassed - that's ok - it was a life lesson sent to me by the universe to make me stronger. I should not judge others against this one person - I should still approach all people with an open heart and full trust...
.... I should not be heartbroken at my non-pregnancy - it is the universe retaining balance and I am already blessed with one child .... and so on (you really have no idea how much longer I could go on about this sort of stuff).

It accompanied the same thought processes that kept me with a violent partner for years ... I must be wrong, or confused, and it will all work out in the end as long as I trust ...the universe/my ex in what is given to me in my life.

Thankfully (and ironically) the hard times are what led me away from this path. I didn't get what I expected from 'spirit' or 'fate' or whatever I thought I believed in, and realised it was up to me to take practical action to keep myself alive, and sane.

It was not ok to have had the car accident - I still suffer from the impact, but I have had proper treatment and filed for compensation.
It was not ok that I was scammed, but I have learnt that lesson, and instead of not judging others on that experience, I do exactly that. I remember that I was treated in such a way, and I know that it can happen again, so I judge others based on what I have learnt.
It was ok not to be pregnant, but it was NOT ok to withold the feelings about it.

Anyway, I have waffled long enough. My point is that the possibility of a magical world is a great thing for those whose life is difficult, or far from complete. However, the attitude to nature is not quite as you put it. I was always, always amazed by nature, and the gifts to be found in everyday life. I didn't enjoy the beauty in a flower, or my daughter any less for believing that there were additional forces around us. I believed those forces were there to make things even more beautiful, if possible, and to bring us a step closer to that beauty in our own lives. (I don't think I've explained that very well - it's a hard emotion/viewpoint to express, particularly now I no longer subscribe in the same way).

 

[dann]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A question for believers

My point is that the possibility of a magical world is a great thing for those whose life is difficult, or far from complete.

Are you sure??! As I see it, your point is that the possibility of a magical world is a great thing for those whose life is difficult, and who do not want to do anything to change that situation. It is the victim's way of staying a victim by inventing a comforting view of a harsh reality instead of 'taking arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them.'

 

[dann]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A question for believers

For me, I believe this is the crux of it.
In my experience, believing in alternatives to proven scientific facts comes from a need to have something else. For myself, things weren't so good, and it was quite handy to have something else to apportion some blame to.

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions."

 

[Keneke]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A question for believers

But why waste one's time on nonsense, when there is so much true stuff to learn?

I'm sorry, there's a slight misunderstanding here. I empathize with the desire to be more powerful, not the right for people to delude themselves to feel like have gained such power.

 

[chillzero]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A question for believers

Are you sure??! As I see it, your point is that the possibility of a magical world is a great thing for those whose life is difficult, and who do not want to do anything to change that situation. It is the victim's way of staying a victim by inventing a comforting view of a harsh reality instead of 'taking arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them.'

See, I knew this was too hard to explain.

I was 'taught' to accept everything that the universe threw at me - and I can see where your perception has come from. I was encouraged to think that you don't fight it, and you don't bring anger or negativity to the situation (very hard for a true celtic temperament- we like our tantrums!). So, you have somewhere else to lay blame, and remove yourself from the origin of the problem.

However, the possibility that magical things exist to help you with everyday things, or to help you get through it, exists alongside that. For example, I would regularly use aromatherapy, or treat myself and peers with it, or herbs, or reflexology, massage, 'remote healing', 'positive thoughts'.... a wide variety of unscientific things to use as everyday tools. When I thought of a friend and they called - that was a magical event, and was used as the basis for deciding that something important must be arisign from that phone call. I could know that I didn't have money to cover a bill, but was expected to 'trust to the universe' to provide me with the means, or some way of having the money appear. If it didn't, well, that was another lesson to be learned - there must be some great design behind my needing to be in the red at that particular time.

I hope this helps clarify a little - it's even harder to explain written down, than face to face - and that's been attempted a few times (I got a great personal counsellor).

 

[tracer]

Originally posted by BPSCG
The light from some of the the stars you see at night left those stars thousands of years ago.

Oh yeah?? Care to verify that??

Okay, Ian, I give up.

Which of your precious Pet Beliefs are threatened by the notion that the light from the more distant stars takes thousands of years to travel here?

 

[Interesting Ian]

Oh yeah?? Care to verify that??

Okay, Ian, I give up.

Which of your precious Pet Beliefs are threatened by the notion that the light from the more distant stars takes thousands of years to travel here? [/B]

That we immediately see reality as it is. If we accept that we see stars X number of years ago, we have to accept we see everything as it was in the past, even if by only an extraordinary small fraction of a second.

It's just one more silly thing the materialist claims. We do not see reality now. The world does not really contain colours as perceived (Colours are just a wavelength of electromagnetic radiation). Objects are not really solid, it's just the electrons near the surface of our fingertips electrically repulsing the electrons near the surface of the "touched" object.

We do not have a self. The self is just a summation of particular experiences. We do not have any more free will than any other object in the Universe, such as Jupiter orbiting the Sun.

To say what I said before:

Well you know my opinion of the matter, which I've stated many times. Objective reality, that is to say the reality that can be measured, abstracts from our experiences. Why should one suppose there is a wholly mysterious reality, which lies forevermore over and beyond everything that we ever see, hear, touch, taste and smell?? Why suppose there is anything more to a peach than its visual appearance, and the feel of it, and its taste etc?

Once we start saying that the peach doesn't really have a colour as experienced but simply reflects a certain wavelength of light; is not really solid but is really the electrons near the surface electrically repulsing the electrons in the tips of our fingers; doesn't really have a taste because that is just a process in ones brain when biting into a peach, then we are engaged in a profound scepticism in all things. Apparently everything that we ever perceptually experience is a delusion. Apparently the "real" world, a world forevermore beyond our direct acquaintance. BTW, is the nightmarish world the scientists and materialists have dreamt up. A world devoid of colour, smells, tastes, in fact a world devoid of all that which we
directly experience!

But it's even worse than that. The materialists would have it that we are soulless robots living out our purposeless lives in a purposeless Universe with the added promise that soon we will cease to exist forevermore. They would have it that everything we ever perceive is a comprehensive delusion. That everything that we ever see is a lie. That our loves, hopes, fears, aspirations, everything that we have ever thought, felt and experienced is nothing over and above meaningless atoms in motion or meaningless chemical processes.

They deny everything and anything that appears to be truly real, and which truly matters, and substitute their lies, and then they have the effrontery to deride anyone who calls into question their wholly unwarranted crazy interpretation of reality.

But do you know what the worse thing of all is? It's that they have no reason or evidence for their grotesque metaphysic! We have no reason to suppose that qualia are somehow unreal, indeed we have no reason at all to even suppose a material world exists!

At the end of the day everything we believe we know about the world has to be cashed out in terms of our perceptual experiences. This so called measurable reality is itself something which is only known through experience. But if everything about the external world is only known through experience, then why go over and above what experience reveals? Why do we suppose that science is anything more than discerning the patterns in our perceptual experiences? What warrants us to suppose that this measurable reality, itself only known through experience, has primacy over our experiences, and indeed is the origin of our experiences??


Absolutely crazy!

To repeat what I have said many times:

Doubt thou the stars art fire;
Doubt thou the sun doth move;
Doubt truth to be a liar;
But never doubt I love.