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A Philosophy Professor Discusses Ayn Rand in his Ethics Class

Did any of the Objectivists answer this? If so, I missed it. I am prepared to admit I might be missing something obvious here, but in O'ist world, who has property rights over unoccupied land?

Don't bother responding to Kevin. He proved pretty early on that he has no interest in honest discussion, and instead is merely taking pot shots at Objectivists. We don't have to say anything for him to accuse, try, and convict us of it.

The flaw in his most recent rantings is that he's committing the Nirvahna Fallacy. In essence, he's saying that if Objectivism doesn't solve every problem--including those that no system in history has ever solved--it is therefore worthless. I think we can all agree that obvious fallacies can be dismissed here, as they would be in any other discussion, yes?
 
Nothing stops them now. NOTHING CAN. As soon as industrial society exists the risk of toxic release exists. If you don't like that, move somewhere that hasn't yet experienced the industrial revolution.

Can we all please agree that universal flaws aren't flaws in Objectivism? If not, what value does the conversation have? You'll just pick any random flaw in the modern system that Objectivism doesn't immediately solve to your satisfaction, and say "See? See? O'ism sucks!"

I think the point most people are making is not that O'ism won't solve every problem, but that it would seem to make existing problems worse.

Not sure. A related proble is oil underground--oil fields and property lines don't always coincide.

A possible solution is that home ownership only extends to a certain distance above and below ground surface. After all, unless you have an airplane or heavy mining equipment you're not going to be able to use much above or below it. But that's just an option. I'm not entirely certain.

As for uninhabited territory such as asteroids and the moon, the one to develop it is the owner, within limitations. The limitations would be something that can be debated by lawyers. The foundational principle is that the one who utliizes it owns it.

...

OK Thanks. So any bit of wilderness not already claimed would belong to the first entity that exploited it? In O'ist world I could raise capital and start drilling for oil in Antarctica or Alaska if I wanted to (Assuming of course that the land didn't already belong to someone else)?
 
OK Thanks. So any bit of wilderness not already claimed would belong to the first entity that exploited it? In O'ist world I could raise capital and start drilling for oil in Antarctica or Alaska if I wanted to (Assuming of course that the land didn't already belong to someone else)?
Yep. And I know some Alaskans who would happily support you (if you succeeded in finding oil it would mean more jobs).
 
Yep. And I know some Alaskans who would happily support you (if you succeeded in finding oil it would mean more jobs).

Yes, but they are taking a big risk in terms of the environment. What if there is a spill and they end up having to pay compensation to millions of people?
 
Yes, but they are taking a big risk in terms of the environment.
Not really. Most of the places you'd likely want to drill are completely empty. Of course, they may become less empty after you set up the drill--I understand the caribou like the warmth :D

But yes, in some cases oil spills will cause problems. It's impossible to get oil without taking that risk. That said, I imagine cleaning spills that happen on land is probably quite a bit easier than cleaning spills that happen in the ocean.

What if there is a spill and they end up having to pay compensation to millions of people?
....In Alaska?
 
I think the point most people are making is not that O'ism won't solve every problem, but that it would seem to make existing problems worse.
I get that that's what they're TRYING to do, but what they're ACTUALLY doing is showing their own ignorance of how the current system works. I've spent two years working in environmental remediation, and another two and a half between remediation and preconstruction mitigation. I can tell you as a profesional that the environmental issues they say will occur under an O'ist government are already occurring, at the levels people say would occur under O'ism, and are in fact encouraged by our modern system. The single best solution to an environmental disaster that I've ever seen was one Ayn Rand herself would have approved of: the factory owner began selling the contaminant to another factory. The rest? It's a mix of stuff that works, stuff that doesn't, and stuff people like my company LOVE because it looks like it works without actually doing anything (remember, once it's clean we stop working--there's economic incentive for environmental companies to keep arguing there's contamination). And as for release of contaminants, have you ever priced out dropping of a roll-off full of contaminated dirt? Once you factor in the cost of accidently shipping one to a non-haz landfill (let's put it this way: each time I've heard about it [oddly enough, despite it happening in multiple states and with multiple companies it's almost always been PCBs that were the problem] it's worth more than my pay for ten years to do this once), it's a good gamble for many smaller companies to simply dump the stuff and hope that no one finds out.

I'm sorry, but until they understand what the modern system actually is doing, their attempts to make Objectivism look bad merely make them look like they haven't given this matter any thought whatever. And it's not my job to educate them on what the current system is--they want to say Objectivism is worse, they should at LEAST know what the current system actually does (ideally they should know both the O'ist theories on the topic and the way the modern system works, both in theory and in practice). If they ask I'll gladly tell them (unless it's under an NDA; sorry, but I'm not losing my job over this discussion), but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the opposition to be at least somewhat educated on the topics under discussion. This stuff isn't terribly hard to find.

In O'ist world I could raise capital and start drilling for oil in Antarctica or Alaska if I wanted to (Assuming of course that the land didn't already belong to someone else)?
Alaska's wilderness is owned, so as it stands now, no.

If it weren't owned, then sure. Of course, I could also put up a large fence around an area and say "No drilling here--I'm making this a nature preserve." Once you move away from an emotional rejection of the concept (and when you used the term "exploit" you demonstrated that you have a bias against it), it becomes obvious that "development" need not consist entirely of removal of economic resources. Some of Objectivists DO value untamed spaces, and would certainly be willing to contribute time and treasure to preserving them. And nature preserves are an objective value, so developing one would certainly fall under the category of developing the wilderness. It's fine to think about the people doing stupid things, but when you do so to the complete exclusion of the rest of the population you develop an extremely biased and false view of the situation.

And before you ask, no, you can't simply declare ownership of all the Alaskan wilderness. The exact method of determining ownership is for someone focused on legal theory (which falls under the heading "implementation", and is thus outside the scope of this discussion), but it's obvious that there has to be some criteria by which the land can be allocated.

Yes, but they are taking a big risk in terms of the environment.
Please quote any Objectivist stating that Objectivism is supposed to remove all risks. I'll make it easier: please quote any Objectivist saying that O'ism is going to lessen risk.

First and foremost, this risk exists because the resources is being utilized. The system of government is irrelevant; it's the process of extraction that generates the risk, so to pin this on Objectivism is to shift the culpability and to ignore basic facts of the situation. And if you think our current governmental oversites prevent that, all I can do is laugh. Again, I've been dealing with this stuff for nearly five years. Want to know how companies get around environmental regulations during construction? For big projects, they often simply buy up a bunch of land and donate it to the BLM. In a just society, we'd term it a bribe, but it's all perfectly legal--the BLM even has protocols for dealing with such land. Then the BLM gives them a number of each endangered species they're allowed to kill. And that's just one example of the type of thing that's rampant on the construction side. Don't get me started on the EPA's actions...Let's just say they're not the saints they say they are.

If you REALLY want to mess with your local environmental nut's mind, look at the environmental cost of a standard groundwater remediation program. There are studies on that topic. It's not exactly pretty.

Second, Objectivism requires you to acknowledge the risks, rather than cowering behind the skirts of governmental lawyers. The lawyers don't stop anything, they merely allow you to pretend the risk doesn't exist. O'ism removes that facad, and forces you to face the truth: we live in a world where actions have consequences, and some of them are pretty serious. If you want to extract oil from the ground, you run the risk of dumping it on the ground. If you want to harnes cheap, reliable power it's going to come with risks--fires, or chemical contamination, or radiation contamination, or the destruction of habitat (look up Ivanpah Solar to see an example of the damage a "green" technology can do; it made a huge splash in California and Nevada newspapers). You need to weigh the benefits of these processes against the risks involved. If you don't like the risks, there are things you can do. First, you can aquire the land and refuse to allow it to be used. Anyone who drills on your land will be prosecuted in O'ist states. Second, you can attempt to convince people to not use the product. I know some very friendly folks (an entire community, by the way--not sure on the numbers, but it's more than just one or two crackpots) that did exactly that: they live without electricity, and refuse to allow any generating facility or transmission lines to cross their property. You run the risk, using either method, of failure--but that's the nature of reality. You can't always win, and sometimes people disagree with you. Your desire to do something in no way guarantees your success.

ETA: Forgot one point. If there's a spill and they end up paying a huge number of people, the company may go bankrupt. That's the risk THEY take in extracting oil.

If you're looking for something without risks, I don't know of any job. I worked in fast food in high school and got to the point where second-degree burns no longer phased me (the hottest girl in the county worked with me, and I was a teenager). As you take on more responsibility and seek greater rewards the risks increase as well. If you want to extract a product worth billions, you're going to risk your company in liability lawsuits. This isn't due to Objecitivism, but rather due to the nature of reality. All O'ism does is force you to address this fact directly.
 
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A: "Are you sure? It seems to me that I'm at much less risk of being beaten to death with a stick under the current system than in your proposed system where anyone can beat me to death with a stick if they feel like it".

B: "You aren't worth talking to, you're just taking pot-shots now. Let me tell you son, the laws against beating people to death with sticks do absolutely nothing. You cannot possibly by any means stop people beating other people to death with sticks. It's a law of the universe.

In fact, if you even want the police to arrest people who try to beat you to death with a stick you're not a Real Man. A Real Man doesn't hide behind the despicable, girly skirts of feminine lawyer-types! A Real Man solves problems with his own personal masculinity, not by some effeminate political process of collective action!

You might think there has been hundreds of years of incremental progress by trial and error in constructing social and legal systems to make it less likely someone will beat you to death with a stick but that's because you haven't read Ayn Rand.

Anyway, if stick-beatings happen you can't pin that on us legalising stick-beatings. No way. Nothing to do with us. I mean, the very idea that laws stop things happening is absurd!

Some people think there is some kind of contradiction when we simultaneously argue that laws against beating people to death with sticks must be repealed, and argue that laws against beating people to death with sticks do nothing. Those people are just taking pot-shots. There's no contradiction. Those laws do absolutely nothing and so we absolutely must get rid of them. Simples!"
 
...Please quote any Objectivist stating that Objectivism is supposed to remove all risks. I'll make it easier: please quote any Objectivist saying that O'ism is going to lessen risk.
...

I'm not going to reply to all of the macho "suck it up" stuff, just this part. The problem is that O'ism increases the risks.

I get that things aren't perfect now, but why would you want to make things worse? In whose interest would that be?
 
Brainache said:
I'm not going to reply to all of the macho "suck it up" stuff,
You've completely missed the point. Not a single word in that post was intended as macho (I don't DO macho). I'll admit to being frustrated, but after you say the same thing over and over and over and people refuse to understand what you're saying when it's in plain English and supported by evidence any of us will get frustrated. In my last post I was pointing out that there's nothing you can do to remove those risks anyway, and that the risks discussed in this thread already exist at the level everyone assumes it will be at under Objectivism. The worst-case scenarios proposed in this thread are already happening.

There are two main conclusions that can be draw from this:

1) Objectivism won't increase the risks. If x1=x2, you cannot say that x1<x2.

2) The people saying that Objectivism will increase the risks don't know the current system, and therefore cannot comment on any alterations to it. They are arguing from ignorance.

I get that things aren't perfect now, but why would you want to make things worse?
Until someone proves that they would be, this is an unevidenced statement. And that's giving you the best of it--I have a fair amount of profesional experience here, and what people are saying the current system does (or, rather, implying; everyone's supposed to simply accept that the current system works better than an O'ist one, without that point being discussed) actually contradicts the facts that I've encountered. Given that some of these facts include the legislation involved in remediation and mitigation, and in a few cases legal precidence, we can conclude that my observations are more than mere anecdotes. Step One to proving that Objectivism would make things worse is to learn the way the current system works, something that as far as I can tell only I have bothered to do.

I thought skeptics were supposed to demand evidence. Why is it that in this discussion only the pro-Objectivist side has to support anything we say?
 
The amount of "No True Objectivism" that's been brought out in this thread just since I've started reading is largely hilarious.
 
I'm not going to reply to all of the macho "suck it up" stuff, just this part. The problem is that O'ism increases the risks.
Saying things does not make them true. Dinwar has made a pretty strong argument that Objectivism does not increase the risks in the ways you're arguing, and your counter is basically "...yes it does!" Not exactly compelling.

And I really would like to know how you think an oil spill in Alaska would result in the company responsible needing to pay millions of people.
 
"You fail to understand how current laws mandating handicapped access discourage business owners from making provisions for the disabled, because it imposes legal penalties on them if they don't do it, which makes them all resentful about having their rights trampled. That's why some try to evade the law. But if you just left it up to them they'd all do it willingly because it makes such good business sense."
 
Actual Objectivists practicing Objectivism don't count as data? I'm sorry, but that's patently ridiculous.

You want studies, look up Dr. Hsieh's thesis. If an Objectivist writing MORE THAN A DECADE BEFORE THE BILL WAS PASSED doesn't prove that O'ists came at the philosophy for reasons other than a particular bill, your standards of proof are flawed.

If you think I was writing anything about Obamacare, your standards of reading are flawed. And the plural of anecdote is not 'data'.
 
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I didn't mean Obamacare was the one single specific issue that people have been invoking Objectivism to oppose. That's just a recent and representative example. Working roughly backwards, in the US, there's also certain Patriot Act provisions, the Disabilities Act, racial integration, environmental laws, urban planning, Social Security (and the entirety of the New Deal), foreign aid, lend-lease, income taxes, public schools...

Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

Respectfully,
Myriad

So did I.
 
The burden of proof is still on you to demonstrate that Objectivists all accept the philosophy because it gives them a rationalization for opposing those things, as opposed to genuinely believing in what the philosophy has to say.

Although I disagree with Myriad's assesment of the proportions, I'm pretty sure Myriad said 'most', not 'all'. And there's no way to determine if it's most, a few, half, or whatever proportion of Objectivists came to Objectivism in reaction to issues with the government by comparing our personal impressions. My impression is most O'ists get there by reading Rand and thinking she makes sense; but I could be wrong. I woldn't say such issues never lead (or return) someone to O'ism.
 
Can a revolution not happen if there's a cult of personality surrounding the leader? Unless such an event is impossible (not unlikely, but completely impossible) then Jong-un can lose power.

Thanks for answering all my questions, but I still don't understand why you're using the veil of ignorance. Doesn't rational self-interest imply that we should act according to what is likely to happen? If I am likely to remain in power and enjoy the benefits of subjugating others, why should I not?

Just FYI: I think we are in rough agreement about human rights, though I approach it from a Kantian perspective (where universality is the whole point of the CI); I'm merely trying to find out how you derive universality from rational self-interest.
 
Although I disagree with Myriad's assesment of the proportions, I'm pretty sure Myriad said 'most', not 'all'.
That doesn't change where the burden of proof lies. Myriad made the claim, so it is up to Myriad to defend it (whether the claim is about all Objectivists, or most, or any random percentage).
 
Thanks for answering all my questions, but I still don't understand why you're using the veil of ignorance. Doesn't rational self-interest imply that we should act according to what is likely to happen? If I am likely to remain in power and enjoy the benefits of subjugating others, why should I not?
Can we actually calculate how likely it is for a dictator to lose power? It seems to me that it would be a difficult thing to try to do, but that could easily be my ignorance talking.

I should also note that the argument I've been giving for universal rights is not the standard Objectivist argument. I believe that argument is more along the lines of "humans are intrinsically equal, so there's no basis for saying one person deserves more rights than another". I'm not well-versed in that argument, though.
 
The amount of "No True Objectivism" that's been brought out in this thread just since I've started reading is largely hilarious.

Are you trying to sound like a creationist attacking evolution? I'm beginning to think you guys are closet Objectivists trying to discredit the irrational critics of the philosophy by mimicking them.
 
I'll try another tack to explain my issues with objectivism.

Are there any non-economic sanctions (prison etc)?
It there are, how are these determined?

As far as I can see there is no way in objectivism to prevent someone using their property rights in an antisocial manner.

Coming back to industry - If I ETA: own won a factory, and have compensated people downwind for all the pollution that is fine. Then there is a freak weather incident and someone else has their land polluted. They want compensation. What level should the compensation be set? What is to stop them refusing all settlements except for the closure of the factory?
 
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