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A Past Experience I Want To Get Over

JP1283

Thinker
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Messages
235
As many of you know from my last thread, I have many issues which concern the paranormal. As mundane as they may sound to anyone reading about them, they're hard for me to discount. Believe me, I want to know for sure that it is really all in my mind and not real. I've had some experiences that are hard for me to ignore, and I'm starting this thread so I can talk about them.

This is not a thread that is about proving the existence of God, Jesus, Buddha, or whatever. I'm not trying to be a troll and just posting stories. I'd like to talk about these experiences that I've had and would like some objective feedback, because I really don't like believing that they are the result of something paranormal.

As some of you may know, I have issues with the so-called "unforgivable sin" in Christianity. This is because, as a teenager, someone told me that I should never commit it or I would be damned. At the time, I was suffering from Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder in the form of horrible, intrusive unwanted thoughts, and this person I decided to tell about them was a Christian (now I would label him a fundamentalist.) Of course, after he told me what the unforgivable sin was, it was all I could think about for years. I thought I was damned because the thought kept repeating in my mind, over and over again. Finally, one day, I gritted my teeth and said the words that he said I should never say or I would not be forgiven: "God and Satan are one."

After I said this, I presume I obsessed over it for a little bit and then forgot about it. Perhaps I was so involved in my OCD issues that the reality of what I had just said didn't sink in, and that my eternal destiny was sealed. I forgot about that memory for two years.

In the summer of 2004, in the midst of a health scare, I prayed to God for help. I had since gotten over my OCD repetitive thoughts by reading up on techniques to get rid of them, and had become an atheist. However, I was so freaked out about the health scare that a friend suggested I pray for help, so I did. In hindsight I shouldn't have, it was a weak moment.

Long story short, I got an "answer" to my prayer in the form of a strong coincidence (my friend Jennifer called me out of the blue while I was holding my cell phone in my hand with the number to the local ER dialed into it.) I then had the strength to tell her all about the health scare, to which she told me that she had gone through something similar. I ended up going to her house, where I told her about the prayer and she said that her calling me probably had something to do with my praying for help. She thought that God had her go through her scare so that she could help me with mine.

I started believing in God, but I wasn't really focused on the "evidence" I now had for the existence of God; I was still very much focused on that test coming back negative. However, I soon started having bad thoughts about God. These eventually brought back memories of the unforgivable sin, and I felt very guilty. One night, while I was at Jennifer's house, I thought to myself: "At least I've never said it out loud." And BAM...it was like a sack of bricks hit me, and my terror could probably rival that of an execution victim. I remembered that two years prior, I had said the words I was told not to say: "God and Satan are one."

For about a month, I was absolutely terrorized. I couldn't sleep; I would wake up in the middle of the night and immediately start obsessing. All I could think about was the fact that I was damned for words that I had said.

Then the following experience happened. I was sitting at my desk at work, most likely obsessing over Jesus, being damned, etcetera, when a voice (not inside my head) from inside me asked the following question: "Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God?" For whatever reason, at the time I felt that I couldn't lie and say yes, so in my mind I said, "No." I then felt something leave me; the only way I can describe it is that my soul, or God, or whatever, departed me. I felt it lift up out of me, like I had just offended God and he decided to leave me at that point, and I felt extremely empty. I no longer felt terrorized about the unforgivable sin; I no longer felt "convicted" if you will.

That is an experience that I can't get over. I try to tell myself that it was all in my mind, but the truth is, I've had trouble feeling guilt over anything since that happened. It makes me worry that the experience was for real, and that God really did leave me that day when I told him that I didn't believe in Jesus.

If anyone has any sort of explanation for that happening, I would love to hear it. I really want to get over the idea that I've offended the Supreme Being and that I'm damned. I want to believe that God didn't leave me that day, but that my mind was playing a trick on me or something.

Thank you for reading.
 
There are solvable problems that the people here just aren't in a position to solve. Yours is one of them.

Go talk to a doctor. As soon as possible.
 
Aw, so sad :( :( :( .

I hug you through the internets :D :D :D !

Personal spiritual experiences are delusions best left forgotten.

(Goddammit, can't do hug smilies)
 
There are solvable problems that the people here just aren't in a position to solve. Yours is one of them.

Go talk to a doctor. As soon as possible.

Oops! I'll have to go to the doctor as well!
In my life of 55 years I had relgious coincidences and fireworks of the same ilk as JP1283 recounts. The reason I haven't considered seeing a psychatrist is that I've listened to many others share their experiences, experinces from a varity of different religious traditions. Religious experiences and the ways we give significance to events are all very human.

You know I've even heared individuals say how expansive and transcedent they felt when they became an Atheist. Some even recount coincidental meetings helped them undergo their dramatic mind change. (The greek word for repentance is "Metanoia," meaning change of mind.)

I myself, had hours of mystical revery when I came to understand how the natural process of evolution was well up to the task of the diversity of the species without need of a Tinkerer.

My suggestion, JP1283 is that you do some reading research in the psycholgy of religion. There's a lot of neat stuff coming out about brain states when people are having religiously altered consciouness.

Sometimes I remember a couple of dramatic answers to prayer. But what cures me of making them into Theism is that I also remember the prayers that wern't answered.
 
Oops! I'll have to go to the doctor as well!
The parts of his posts that prompted my advice had to do with his reactions to events rather than to the events themselves. So if you were "absolutely terrorized" by a thought for about a month, and have had experiences that you "can't get over", then I would say yes, you definitely should as well.
 
Whether you should see a doctor or not, I have no idea. What I do know is, you're not gonna get the help you apparently need on an internet forum, no matter how well intentioned the people here are.

Especially when there are other people (like me) who just think it's a big attention hoo-ha and won't take it seriously in this format, and like to point it out. If you really are having issues, that sure as heck ain't gonna help.
 
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Then the following experience happened. I was sitting at my desk at work, most likely obsessing over Jesus, being damned, etcetera, when a voice (not inside my head) from inside me asked the following question: "Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God?" For whatever reason, at the time I felt that I couldn't lie and say yes, so in my mind I said, "No." I then felt something leave me; the only way I can describe it is that my soul, or God, or whatever, departed me. I felt it lift up out of me, like I had just offended God and he decided to leave me at that point, and I felt extremely empty. I no longer felt terrorized about the unforgivable sin; I no longer felt "convicted" if you will.

Well, unlike the other atheist wooses here, I am not afraid to tell you what I think.

What you felt was just the wieght of the religious crap being lifted from you. With that gone you are free to focus on the real problems. I suggest you seek professional help for you OCD, as others have already done.

Either that or you really are destined to spend the rest of eternity in the flaming pits of hell. :p

ETA: Don't worry about this last bit. If this is the case, all the rest of us atheists will be there along with you nad we can have a few laughs about it! I'll bring the beer! :D
 
The parts of his posts that prompted my advice had to do with his reactions to events rather than to the events themselves. So if you were "absolutely terrorized" by a thought for about a month, and have had experiences that you "can't get over", then I would say yes, you definitely should as well.

I see. I hope "absolutly terrorized" was hyperbole. If not I agree with you to the extent that some counseling would be useful to him. I'm not saying he's loony, but we all sometimes have overwhelming feelings we need help processing.

I've had altered states of conscoisness in connection with letting go of beliefs, but these have been more a wonder for me than something terrible.

When your own persnal identity and the way you construct and maintain it is based on a matter of religious culture or even an ingainary companion, letting go of that feels a kind of death. But openess to a changed mind is also a rebirth.

And even though this was said to me by a chiropractor I didn't trust,

Trust the process!
 
So, which unforgivable sin are we talking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unforgivable_sin

If you believe in god (and I don't but just for the thought experiment)

Don't you think he would be a bigger man than to take offense at something you say as opposed to something you believe?

Oh, and if you look at the links, there seem to be all kinds of opt out plans
 
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hi jp1283,

Do not expect continuous progress in your escape from the prison you are in. Give yourself years.

Consider the possibility that there are many people, including doctors, who would use your OCD as a tool to help others believe because they sincerely view faith as a perspective that is a benefit to humanity.

There is no magic phrase that could send someone to hell for eternity.

If there were a god, he would love you and value your struggle as a sign of a true seeker of truth.
 
I wish some spirit would ask me if I believed Jesus was the son of God.

"Why no. Do you plan to throw me into Hell because of it? If so, how does this support the contention that Yahweh is a kind and loving god?"
 
Then the following experience happened. I was sitting at my desk at work, most likely obsessing over Jesus, being damned, etcetera, when a voice (not inside my head) from inside me asked the following question: "Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God?" For whatever reason, at the time I felt that I couldn't lie and say yes, so in my mind I said, "No." I then felt something leave me; the only way I can describe it is that my soul, or God, or whatever, departed me. I felt it lift up out of me, like I had just offended God and he decided to leave me at that point, and I felt extremely empty. I no longer felt terrorized about the unforgivable sin; I no longer felt "convicted" if you will.

That is an experience that I can't get over. I try to tell myself that it was all in my mind...

Well, this may be a place to start. The articles are careful to put the evidence into the context of actually believing, but if you read it from an athiest view point it might help on your journey. The link above is a short quip, this is an actual article that may help.
This certainly isn't a be-all, end-all... but it may help to get you going on your own research. Goodluck!
 
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So while God is in you, you carry the terrible burden of having said the Christian equivalent of "Candyman" and you're torn up with fear and regret. But the minute you denounce Jesus, God leaves you and you feel better? Therefore the denouncing can only be a good thing.

I am not mocking you, I am pointing out to you just how daft this rules from God crap is if you look at it objectively. I have every sympathy with what you went through, as a kid I went through something very similar. What you must now do is realise that your previous paranoias about the power of a simple sentence are just red herrings. The idea that there is something simple you can say which guarantees you'll burn in hell is very, very silly. Candyman, Candyman, Candyman...

Concentrate on the silliness of the idea.


Then destroy it with logic.
Ask questions as though you are challenging the friend who originally told you about the sin:

"If I say it but don't mean it, does God know the difference?"

"If there's no-one around to hear me say it, technically I didn't make a sound so it's not actually been said. Does that matter to God?"

"If I mean it but don't say it, is that just as bad?"

"What if I accidentally say it as part of another sentence? For example "God and Satan are one heck of a pair of opposites" or "God and Satan are one day going to decide who gets my soul"?

"What if I'm forced to say it at gunpoint?"

"What if my family is kidnapped and saying it is the only way I can get them back?"

"What if I say it in another language?"

"How do we know that's the right phrase? Surely it's been translated through many old languages to get to "God and Satan are one". What if something was mistranslated and it's actually something we say all the time, like "For god's sake"! We could be damning ourselves by accident!"

"What if a little toddler who can't really talk is just gurgling away in his own nonsense language and accidentally comes out with those words without knowing the meaning?"

"What if someone who doesn't speak English reads the words phonetically?"

"What if I am tricked into saying them, for example if someone asks me to read the words "go, Dan, and say 'tan Arwen'".

"What if I am completely unaware of religion and say the words as a complete naif?"

And so on. The more you ask, the dafter the whole idea sounds. And it's perfectly OK to say to yourself "I was in a dark mode of thinking but in the cold light of day I can see I wasn't being myself".

Oh, and one last thing. I just said "God and Satan are one" out loud, in the presence of my husband. I did it so if it turns out your friend is right, you will have some company in the eternal hellfire. You'll recognise me when I get there by my long black hair and Brummie accent.

JP1283, if I'm wrong, I'll see you in hell :D
 
JP1238,

I have to agree with those who suggest you need some professional help. Not being mean or funny here, but in all seriousness.

On a less serious note, does the Christian God operate just like saying "I believe in Mary Worth" three times in front of a mirror? What nonsense!

To show how ridiculous it is, I will now, in a public forum, for posterity (or at least until the apes take over and kick us off the internet) commit this "unforgivable sin" against a non-existent deity.

God and Satan are one.

Actually, that's being mean to Satan.

God sucks.

God is a blow-hard. A nincompoop. He wouldn't know a real sin if it kicked him in his "omnipotent" (actually undersized) crotch.

See?

Also works for other fictional characters.

Hannibal Lechter is a bad, bad jerk.

Darth Vader sucks.

Santa Claus is a fat poser who only delivers toys so he can peep into other people's bedrooms.

Hmm. I feel a little bad about that last one, actually.
 
Teek, that's good advice. Shortly after having my first child I developed panic disorder. I saw a doctor and got on a small dose of Paxil. That took the edge off so I could work on changing my thought patterns. Irrational fears were not indulged, but rather met with a ferocious counter attack of logic. I was able to stop the medication and live a full life again, but not without first making a conscious decision to actively challenge the thoughts.
 
JP - I've gone through your post and removed everything except the descriptions of how you feel:


At the time, I was suffering from Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder in the form of horrible, intrusive unwanted thoughts ...
it was all I could think about for years.
I thought I was damned
the thought kept repeating in my mind, over and over again.
I obsessed over it for a little bit and then forgot about it.
I was so freaked out
I then had the strength
I started believing in God
I wasn't really focused on the "evidence"
I soon started having bad thoughts
it was like a sack of bricks hit me
my terror could probably rival that of an execution victim.
For about a month, I was absolutely terrorized.
I couldn't sleep;
I would wake up in the middle of the night and immediately start obsessing.
All I could think about was the fact that I was damned
I was ... obsessing over Jesus, being damned, etcetera
I felt that I couldn't lie
I then felt something leave me;
my soul, or God, or whatever, departed me.
I felt it lift up out of me,
I felt extremely empty.
I no longer felt terrorized
I no longer felt "convicted"
I've had trouble feeling guilt over anything since that happened.
It makes me worry
I really want to get over the idea that I've offended the Supreme Being
I want to believe that God didn't leave me that day,


I don't believe that you are having a religious problem at all. I don't believe your problem is one of faith or lack thereof. And I do not believe any amount of philosophising one way or another is going to be helpful.

Your own words reveal an individual who is being absolutely torn apart by obsession and maybe depression. Your thoughts run in circles; an issue is never truely decided but you keep returning to it again and again. It is taking up your time, affecting your work and keeping you from living as fully as possible.

I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that you have a mental illness. Your brain is physically sick. The same way someone might have liver disease, your brain needs treatment.

The good news is that there are probably a lot of great treatment options available to you. There are whole shelves of medications, any one of which might be able to make you feel better in as little as three weeks. In addition, you'll probably want to see a counselor to sort out just how to live with your new, healthy brain. Just like a person might need physical therapy after having his knee repaired, you'll need therapy after your brain is repaired. You've been living with illness so long that you need someone to show you how to live without it.

Call a family member and ask for help finding psychiatric services today.

Remember: You wouldn't make fun of a person who needs chemotherapy so you shouldn't worry about being stigmatized for needing psychological therapy.
 
There are solvable problems that the people here just aren't in a position to solve. Yours is one of them.

Go talk to a doctor. As soon as possible.

Great advice. Therapy don't forget that too though.
 
Maybe it's not the equivalence of god and satan that causes one to go to hell. Maybe it's the misuse of math. Let's analyze this:

god and satan are one.

god + satan = 1

god (non-existent) + satan (non-existent) = 1

since non-existent = 0,

0 + 0 = 1

Which is a mathematical fallacy.

It doesn't work for boolean math either:

god (false) AND satan (false) = 1 (true)

false AND false = true

false = true

So of course this is grounds for going to hell for all eternity!
 
As many of you know from my last thread, I have many issues which concern the paranormal. As mundane as they may sound to anyone reading about them, they're hard for me to discount. Believe me, I want to know for sure that it is really all in my mind and not real. I've had some experiences that are hard for me to ignore, and I'm starting this thread so I can talk about them..
Here are four posible courses of action.

1. See a shrink (per above suggestions)
2. See a clergyman
3. Change your meds
4. Start drinking heavily

Each of these suggestions carries with it a risk that what happens after following any one of them will raise yet another obstacle in your life.

Too damned bad, that is life, get on with it.

What you need to stop doing is feeling as though you are unable to do anything, something, to get yourself out of this spiritual hole. If that takes a shrink, or one of the other options (option 4 has a low probability of helping that) then so be it.

Pick one, and run with it. Best of luck. Chances are, the four options are rank ordered in likelihood of helping you out of your fix.

DR
 

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