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Ed A New Explanation for Paranormal Claims

I've looked through all of Persinger's articles that are available through PubMed, which really is the gold-standard site for anything published in a truly reputable publication, and I have to say that Persinger's actual experiments seem to have very good protocols. His research in anything related to these areas produces conclusions which I would think to be exactly the opposite of anything that anyone hoping for the woo-ish would want to find. Essentially, he concludes that if mystical experiences and "sensed presences" can be evoked by simply aiming a weak magnetic field at most people's heads, then the paranormal explanation is pretty much out.

It is my understanding that Persinger considers his experiments supportive of paranormal explanations. It is exposure to magnetic fields which facilitates our connection to a universal consciousness. These sensations are experiences of something 'real' that is otherwise generally inaccessible to us (I'm going on vague recollection here, so this could be way off).

You may want to PM cj23 and ask him to join in, as this is also his area of interest and study. He has made some criticisms of Persinger in the past (I don't recall him going into detail) and does not seem to consider Persinger's work compelling. I think his input would be useful.

Linda
 
'Neurobiological based'... magnetic fields as applied to the right hemisphere to the brain... very interesting. I do wonder if the physical manifestation of these'paranormal abilities' is some sort of placebo effect. Even better, a new form of evolution, though I doubt this one. The magnetic waves to the right hemisphere thing can be expected, that will muck around with the charged particles transferred when a neurone fires. Potentially sounds useful. Any chance of 'developing' these 'skills'?

But then, this would seem to exclude the possibility of 'reformation' (for wont of a better word).

People like myself who used to claim to be psychic and healers, and who - through self testing and investigation - have found that there are mundane explanations for most of the experiences.
 
It would be so unfortunate for someone doing groundbreaking and revealing work in this field to make a really interesting discovery, then blow its credibility by shoehorning it to fit their own pet theory.

Good research followed by bad scientific analysis.

This is one area that really needs extra special levels of replicable studies and peer review.
 
<snip for brevity>

Look, my personal opinion is that yes, this and a whole lot of other evidence like it (which I'll post tomorrow, when I have more time!) MIGHT apply to VFF. I don't know if it does-- I couldn't possibly say that without seeing a neurological exam done on her! But I think that IF it does, it could actually be an explanation that would be very kind. There have been so many threads about her and so much discussion over such a length of time, and it seems that a big part of the fascination has got to be an ongoing attempt to figure out why on earth someone would keep clinging to a belief in paranormal powers in the face of all evidence. There have been a lot of theories as to why, and some of them haven't been, well, very charitable. I think there's no doubt that for some people who have made exactly the same claims as Anita, the reason why they've kept doing it is that they have overpowering subjective sensations which continually convince them that they must be correct about their paranormal senses and powers, and that eventually they'll be proven right. I don't believe that these people are deliberately attempting to be fradulent, or playing games, or trying to fool themselves, or attempting to trick anyone. And if Anita might fall into this category-- again, God or Odin or Bast or Inanna or whoever only knows if she does-- then I don't think that she's deliberately trying to do any of these things either.


As one of the sometimes less charitable theorists, I'd have have to say this paragraph sums up almost exactly what provides my motivation for involving myself in VfF's activities.

Your point that the explanation that you provide may be kind is well-noted, and I'd like to add to it, perhaps in defence of most of the participants, that our oft-repeated pleas for Anita to seek professional help are not made unkindly.

Many prefer to think that all of what we see is based in delusion, rather than in wilful, rational attempts to deceive people for self-aggrandizement..


Thank you for your work,

Dave
 
VfF is VisionFromFeeling, a poster at these fora whose real-life name is Anita Ikonen.

Since about November of 2008, VFF has brought a number of paranormal-sounding claims here, each time resulting in a large number of other posters joining those threads in order to express an opinion as to the reasons behind her making these claims.

Many think that VFF could benefit from a real-world analysis of her behaviour, and will benefit themselves from seeing the information that Maia brings us in relation to this behaviour generally.


+ what Jeff said.
 
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Forgive me. I have not read the studies in question and I doubt I'd understand them if I did, but the following phrase bothers me:

"The more specific the details became, the more abnormal his EEG was."

What would an abnormal EEG reading be in this case? It seems like any time someone was concentrating on something specific, it would result in changes to the EEG and the more specific something was, the more specialized the EEG reading would become. I'm assuming that there were controls for this somehow.

Like I said, I'm not expert, but as a layman, that's something I find a little confusing. Were the psychic healer's EEG readings different from those of a specialized auto-mechanic? Or anyone else?

Just wondering,
Ward
 
I'll post more specifics on that very subject tonight if I get the chance. If I don't, I definitely will tomorrow (I might not get the time tonight to really go over the study and answer the question with the amount of detail that I'd like to.) I thought seriously about this one:

It is my understanding that Persinger considers his experiments supportive of paranormal explanations. It is exposure to magnetic fields which facilitates our connection to a universal consciousness. These sensations are experiences of something 'real' that is otherwise generally inaccessible to us (I'm going on vague recollection here, so this could be way off).

I don't know, but I did have to wonder why Persinger seemed so fascinated by this one topic. But here's the thing: whatever he thinks about paranormal experiences, the results of the studies themselves are just so generally unsupportive to paranormal claims. In some cases, all they do is to debunk specific claims. If he really thinks that magnetic fields are somehow facilitating paranormal abilities, then I honestly don't know why he's published a lot of the studies that he has, because their results can't be making him the least bit happy. I'll try to at least post his results from the "ghost" studies tonight-- they are hilarious.

P.S.: Now, Akhenaten, I wasn't talking about you! ;)
 
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If he really thinks that magnetic fields are somehow facilitating paranormal abilities, then I honestly don't know why he's published a lot of the studies that he has, because their results can't be making him the least bit happy. I'll try to at least post his results from the "ghost" studies tonight-- they are hilarious.

P.S.: Now, Akhenaten, I wasn't talking about you! ;)

I would think not. Anita and others:rolleyes: have some serious studies concerning American East Coast haunted motel rooms to do and record.
 
I really wish it was possible to link to the full articles. :( That's one of the things which annoys me the most about the entire internet... (quite the broad statement, I know.) Still, it's true. What I'm referring to, of course, is how appallingly difficult it is to link to the full text of scholarly articles.

I've looked through all of Persinger's articles that are available through PubMed, which really is the gold-standard site for anything published in a truly reputable publication, and I have to say that Persinger's actual experiments seem to have very good protocols. His research in anything related to these areas produces conclusions which I would think to be exactly the opposite of anything that anyone hoping for the woo-ish would want to find. Essentially, he concludes that if mystical experiences and "sensed presences" can be evoked by simply aiming a weak magnetic field at most people's heads, then the paranormal explanation is pretty much out. Persinger contributed to a really funny study which examined supposedly paranormal apparitions of Jesus and Mary in a specific site, and the findings were that the site had unusual geomagnetic activity and that two people with signs of complex partial epilepsy were the ones who had been convincing everyone else that they really saw the apparitions. I don't know if I can say that Persinger NEVER had ANYTHING to do with any kind of woo-ish study, but so much of his stuff really seems to be debunking paranormal events and abilities. (A lot of it also has nothing to do with the topic whatsoever--he's done some really good work on the use of novel anticonvulsants for traumatic brain injury!)

Persinger did test Sean Harriman, which is one case I was planning to bring up next. (I can email this study to anyone who wants to see it as a pdf). That was fascinating, because Harriman claimed (probably still does) that he can diagnose people's illnesses and ailments from photographs. Now, we all KNOW how this is relevant. Remember the original title of this thread??? The study didn't address whether or not Harriman had any actual paranormal powers in this area. Instead, it published the results of a complete neurological and psychological workup of Harriman. His psychological test results weren't all that unusual, but there were ALL kinds of functional abnormalities in his brain. And then there were the particularly interesting results of EEG's done while he was handling photographs and reporting all kinds of specific details about the people in them. The more specific the details became, the more abnormal his EEG was. It's extremely important to remember than we are not talking about increased accuracy of specific information about these people in the photographs. Rather, this particular finding means that when Harriman subjectively believed that he was relaying accurate information which reflected paranormal ability, his EEG became significantly abnormal.

Look, my personal opinion is that yes, this and a whole lot of other evidence like it (which I'll post tomorrow, when I have more time!) MIGHT apply to VFF. I don't know if it does-- I couldn't possibly say that without seeing a neurological exam done on her! But I think that IF it does, it could actually be an explanation that would be very kind. There have been so many threads about her and so much discussion over such a length of time, and it seems that a big part of the fascination has got to be an ongoing attempt to figure out why on earth someone would keep clinging to a belief in paranormal powers in the face of all evidence. There have been a lot of theories as to why, and some of them haven't been, well, very charitable. I think there's no doubt that for some people who have made exactly the same claims as Anita, the reason why they've kept doing it is that they have overpowering subjective sensations which continually convince them that they must be correct about their paranormal senses and powers, and that eventually they'll be proven right. I don't believe that these people are deliberately attempting to be fradulent, or playing games, or trying to fool themselves, or attempting to trick anyone. And if Anita might fall into this category-- again, God or Odin or Bast or Inanna or whoever only knows if she does-- then I don't think that she's deliberately trying to do any of these things either.

Thanks for starting this thread, Maia, it -- why people behave as they do -- is of enormous interest to me, and has been since childhood (I'm now 59). Incidents that happened to me, while growing up in what I have come to perceive as a fairly dysfunctional family, are probably responsible for my deeply skeptical attitude toward people's behavior in general, let alone in the so-called field of the paranormal.

I think one of the reasons why some here perceive Anita's behavior as disingenuous, if not outright fraudulent, is the way she seems to be resistant to actually testing herself, or being tested by people of a skeptical bent. This gives her the appearance of anything but an "innocent." I could be wrong in saying this about someone I've never met in real life, but the evidence, as they say, is out there.

So, while certain people do have overpowering subjective sensations, does this necessarily provoke in them an avoidance of rationality, to the extent that they steadfastly resist placing themselves into a situation where the possibility that their experiences have a rational explanation may be discovered?


M.
 
So, while certain people do have overpowering subjective sensations, does this necessarily provoke in them an avoidance of rationality, to the extent that they steadfastly resist placing themselves into a situation where the possibility that their experiences have a rational explanation may be discovered?

Along those same lines, is there any information about how people react to learning of an ordinary explanation? We see dowsers resist the truth all the time. In VFF's case she has faced an enormous amount of contradictory evidence and has essentially convinced no one of her abilities. Connie Sonne was extremely confident about the test, then blew it. He reaction was to accuse the JREF of cheating. We also have the guy (forget his handle) who insisted he could detect when people were staring at him despite repeated explanations of how easily this could be explained.

So, while we have a possible explanation for certain experiences, is there any research on why people continue to hold on to these beliefs? I, for one, would find myself shaken to the core had I experienced the resistance that VFF experienced here or the utter failure that Connie Sonne experienced.
 
I posted a bit over on Unca Yimmy's other thread on this question... all I can say, UY, is that you have a whole lot more patience with trying to get to the bottom of some of these claims over time than I ever could have had! ;)


Here's more information about what happened with the people who'd made the specific claims about having paranormal abilities and/or senses. We've finally got to the really interesting stuff!!

One subject had reported a subjective “paranormal” experience in the form of a “haunting” which culminated in the viewing of a ghost four years earlier. In the laboratory, the entire experience, complete with the subjectively viewed appearance of a “ghost”, was reproduced by 1 microTesla, complex, transcerebral magnetic fields. Within 10 min. after exposure to a frequency-modulated pattern applied over the right hemisphere, the man reported "rushes of fear" that culminated in the subjective experience of an apparition. Concurrent electroencephalographic measurements showed conspicuous 1-sec.-to-2-sec. paroxysmal complex spikes (15 Hz) that accompanied the reports of fear (Persinger, Tiller, & Koren, 2000).

The entire laboratory experience was repeated with two people who had claimed to have had exactly the same type of “haunting” experience. Both of these subjects had also been confirmed to have experienced complex partial epileptic signs. (Persinger, Koren, & O’Connor, 2001)

The next case was, I thought, the most significant for what’s been reported on this board, for obvious reasons. A subject who had a history of subjective beliefs that he had the paranormal ability to diagnose the physical illnesses, health, and health history of others by viewing and handling their photographs had abnormal brain activity when exposed to the same kind of magnetic field (Persinger et al, 1997). He was compared to controls, and this was a double-blind study.

One hypothesis is that a subset exists of people whose brains are remarkably sensitive to extremely weak magnetic fields, and that when these fields are encountered from normal sources in everyday life, they induce abnormal EEG activity. This activity is reliably induced in average subjects by stronger magnetic fields, and it is consistently correlated with some sensations which might fall into the category of “paranormal senses.” If people from the aforementioned subset are previously conditioned to believe in the concept of paranormal abilities and/or persuaded to believe that they may have these abilities, the unusual sensations which they may regularly experience—and which are caused by abnormal brain activity—could very well be enough to convince them that they really are having paranormal experiences, and thus that they possess paranormal abilities. The exact nature of this abnormal brain activity is not possible to confirm at this time, and neither is its precise sensation. However, if I had to make a guess, I would say that it is likely to be most similar to a type of temporal lobe epilepsy, particularly the auras associated with TLE. There is actually a lot of evidence in favor of this argument. For one thing, there's the Cook & Persinger 2001 experiment, in which subjects who experienced complex partial seizures were far more likely to experience the “sensed presence” under weak magnetic fields than those who had not (complex partials are common with TLE). The correlation between complex or simple partial seizures and/or temporal lobe epilepsy on the one hand, and paranormal senses/perceived abilities and/or unusual, extreme spiritual/religious experiences on the other, has been reliably reproduced by many other studies. I will post cites for those and also for all the rest later on. I also hope to have time to address the question about the Harriman EEG. However, I believe that they found results consistent with the complex partial seizure studies. :)
 
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One hypothesis is that a subset exists of people whose brains are remarkably sensitive to extremely weak magnetic fields, and that when these fields are encountered from normal sources in everyday life, they induce abnormal EEG activity.
This seems to be a problem if we extend this explanation a couple of centuries back, when there were few natural sources of weak magnetic fields, outside the Earth's own magnetic field: where did all those hauntings come from in those days?

Likewise, modern humans living in a affluent society are constantly bombarded by weak magnetic fields, so that should cause an abundance of supernatural experiences.
 
This seems to be a problem if we extend this explanation a couple of centuries back, when there were few natural sources of weak magnetic fields, outside the Earth's own magnetic field: where did all those hauntings come from in those days?

Well, first of all, the experiments do seem to show-- and everybody is going to have take it for what they think it's worth, obviously-- that geomagnetic activity matching the weak magnetic fields produced in the lab have exactly the same
results. So that may very well provide part of the explanation.
Likewise, modern humans living in a affluent society are constantly bombarded by weak magnetic fields, so that should cause an abundance of supernatural experiences.

See the rest of this forum.
 
Fascinating thread.

One subject had reported a subjective “paranormal” experience in the form of a “haunting” which culminated in the viewing of a ghost four years earlier. In the laboratory, the entire experience, complete with the subjectively viewed appearance of a “ghost”, was reproduced by 1 microTesla, complex, transcerebral magnetic fields. Within 10 min. after exposure to a frequency-modulated pattern applied over the right hemisphere, the man reported "rushes of fear" that culminated in the subjective experience of an apparition. Concurrent electroencephalographic measurements showed conspicuous 1-sec.-to-2-sec. paroxysmal complex spikes (15 Hz) that accompanied the reports of fear (Persinger, Tiller, & Koren, 2000).

Hasn't it also been proven that subsonics can cause "haunting" or "ghost" experiences? I'm curious if those sound waves have frequencies somehow related to the frequencies of magnetic pulses described here.

I'm also interested in how all of this fits in with evolutionary biology. It sounds like you're pointing to the conclusion that people who are prone to having these experiences are somehow "abnormal"?

If that's so, then we'd expect belief in the paranormal to be the exception and not the norm in the population. So I don't think it's as simple as a certain brain dysfunction leads to belief.

We know that natural selection punishes Type II errors, but not Type I. So in our pattern-recognition circuitry, we expect more people prone to Type I errors.

Not sure at all where I'm going with this. Some sort of selection pressure for this abnormality (meaning it'd be better termed "normal"). . . or maybe just the simple idea that some but not all belief in the paranormal is explainable this way?

Just "venting in mangled form" some stray thoughts. . . .
 
Well, first of all, the experiments do seem to show-- and everybody is going to have take it for what they think it's worth, obviously-- that geomagnetic activity matching the weak magnetic fields produced in the lab have exactly the same
results. So that may very well provide part of the explanation.
But the geomagnetic field is always there. There would be no letting down of the feelings of haunting that these people experience. Those who participated in the study would have this feeling before they participated, during, and after. It seems that a study where putting people in a room shielded from the geomagnetic field would yield more decisive results than exposing people to a field they are immersed in all the time!

See the rest of this forum.
Is that not a rather glib answer?

The people who experience hauntings do not seem to have this experience all the time, but only at special occasions or at special places. Obviously a few experience it all the time, but they are regarded as mentally ill, are they not?
 
Regarding magnetic fields, there's another possibility. If people are in fact sensitive to this, it would be unusual for the sensitivity not to vary. It also doesn't mean that magnetic fields are the only way to induce the reaction. The fact that we can objectively induce a <don't know the right adjective> sensation to me opens the door for more research.
 
I sometimes wonder if the reason churches use organs is those very low frequency sounds, which might add to the general atmosphere of awe?
 
I sometimes wonder if the reason churches use organs is those very low frequency sounds, which might add to the general atmosphere of awe?
Probably true, but today, any decent rock band generates even low frequency sounds at an impressive amplitude. Coming to think of it, those rock bands do in fact inspire a lot of awe ...
 

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