Merged A new argument pro Near Death Experiences

[MaartenVergu]

Maybe this will explain it better for you. Because my English is not so good.

 

[Mojo]

The study was done in january 2018:
Study of brain during dying process


So some sceptics think that the NDE occures during this synchronic firing of neurons just before dying.

However his surge of energy coincides with the destruction of the neurons. No NDE survivor would be able to tell anything after the total destruction of his neurons. CPR teams work to avoid this by bringing their patients back to cardiorespiratory function before and NDE's are reported during the procedures, before this final necrosis occurs.

Nope, they are only ever reported afterwards.

 

[MaartenVergu]

You haven't read this at all, have you?

 

[Darat]

Maybe this will explain it better for you. Because my English is not so good.

Yeah it explains that the claim you made was incorrect.

 

[MaartenVergu]

double

 

[MaartenVergu]

Yeah it explains that the claim you made was incorrect.

Nope it didn't. It actually confirmed my claim.

 

[Darat]

Which claim?

1) That NDE are anything but false memories
2) That "NDE's are reported during the procedures, before this final necrosis occurs." NDEs are reported afterwards when a patient is conscious, when the false memories are created is not known.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Of course, NDE's are reported when people are conscious. That's obvious. That's not the point at all. It's when the NDE happens. I thought that was obvious.

 

[Mojo]

You haven't read this at all, have you?

I got as far as “My first reaction is that the electrical activity reported still seems to be extremely minimal and restricted to narrow bands of the electromagnetic spectrum.”

 

[Mojo]

Of course, NDE's are reported when people are conscious. That's obvious. That's not the point at all. It's when the NDE happens. I thought that was obvious.

What evidence do you have that it happens when you claim it does?

 

[MaartenVergu]

What evidence do you have that it happens when you claim it does?

pure logical reasoning based on the study that says that immediately after the heart stops beating there is a 3 to 5 minutes period when all neuronal activity in the brain stopped. After this period of time, a wave of electrical energy starts destroying the neurons in the dying brain, so the damage is irreversible.

Some sceptics think that the NDE occures during this synchronic firing of neurons just before dying.

However this surge of energy coincides with the destruction of the neurons. No NDE survivor would be able to tell anything after the total destruction of his neurons. CPR teams work to avoid this by bringing their patients back to cardiorespiratory function before and NDE's are happening during the procedures, before this final necrosis occurs.
NDE's seem to occure at the moment 'when all neuronal activity in the brain stopped.'

 

[Porpoise of Life]

What evidence do you have that it happens when you claim it does?

Well, how else would it support his claim that consciousness lives on after the brain dies?
I mean... I'm sure Maarten's got something to support his claim...

 

[MaartenVergu]

I see that you already made up your mind despite evidence to the contrary.

 

[Pixel42]

The evidence says that those who come close to death sometimes later report memories formed before/during/after the experience. That is all it says, and I have seen no-one here dispute it.

 

[Mojo]

pure logical reasoning based on the study that says that immediately after the heart stops beating there is a 3 to 5 minutes period when all neuronal activity in the brain stopped. After this period of time, a wave of electrical energy starts destroying the neurons in the dying brain, so the damage is irreversible.

Some sceptics think that the NDE occures during this synchronic firing of neurons just before dying.

However this surge of energy coincides with the destruction of the neurons. No NDE survivor would be able to tell anything after the total destruction of his neurons. CPR teams work to avoid this by bringing their patients back to cardiorespiratory function before and NDE's are happening during the procedures, before this final necrosis occurs.
NDE's seem to occure at the moment 'when all neuronal activity in the brain stopped.'

How do you know it doesn’t happen before or after this “moment 'when all neuronal activity in the brain stopped’”?

For example, how do you know that it isn’t some sort of artefact produced when the patient is resuscitated?

 

[Mojo]

I see that you already made up your mind despite evidence to the contrary.

What evidence, and what is it contrary to?

 

[Pope130]

pure logical reasoning based on the study that says that immediately after the heart stops beating there is a 3 to 5 minutes period when all neuronal activity in the brain stopped. After this period of time, a wave of electrical energy starts destroying the neurons in the dying brain, so the damage is irreversible.

Some sceptics think that the NDE occures during this synchronic firing of neurons just before dying.

However this surge of energy coincides with the destruction of the neurons. No NDE survivor would be able to tell anything after the total destruction of his neurons. CPR teams work to avoid this by bringing their patients back to cardiorespiratory function before and NDE's are happening during the procedures, before this final necrosis occurs.
NDE's seem to occure at the moment 'when all neuronal activity in the brain stopped.'

You seem to be spending a lot of time trying to refute arguments that no one here has made. Perhaps you could identify these "some skeptics" you are arguing with, and invite them to participate. Or, respond to the people taking part in this discussion.

 

[Mojo]

You seem to be spending a lot of time trying to refute arguments that no one here has made. Perhaps you could identify these "some skeptics" you are arguing with, and invite them to participate. Or, respond to the people taking part in this discussion.

He’s just trying to use a strawman/false dilemma combination: putting up a ridiculous argument (that NDEs happen when the subjects neurons are totally destroyed) and implying that if that position is wrong his must be correct.

 

[abaddon]

Of course, NDE's are reported when people are conscious. That's obvious. That's not the point at all. It's when the NDE happens. I thought that was obvious.

You keep on running away from the fact that I have had one and you have not. Why?

 

[Twoflower]

Consciousness is a relative term. As far as I was concerned I never lost consciousness and felt that I was lucid the whole time. To the ward staff and the crash team I was found unconscious. So at what point did I lose consciousness?