A monument to dimplomatic incompetence

[Darth Rotor]

Sorry, my human brain, again.

Skeptical.

(j/k)

 

[Darth Rotor]

Any day now they'll start their "greater Israel" plan, the one those evil Jews have been planning for 2,000 years. They're very patient.

I finally get the Carl Reiner/Mel Brooks "2000 year old man" gag.

It was actually a documentary clothed as a comdey! Hidden in plain sight!

DR

 

[Thunder]

Obama is extremely unpopular among Israelis.

And yet, so very popular with the rest of the world.

I wonder why this is?

 

[Thunder]

It is Obama hubris that caused him to think that his demands on Israel to halt all settlement activity, including natural growth, would, magically, transform the history of unsuccessful negotiations.

Yes!!!

How dare that arrogant, pig-headed, black American President demand that Israel stop construction on its illegal settlements on stolen Arab land!! Who does he think he is?

Doesn't he know that God gave the West Bank to the Jews and the Jews alone?

 

[Marc39]

so is Obama's attempts to get in the way of greater Israel and the removal of the unsuitable people that would be required to achieve it affecting his popularity among people who want to achieve it?

bet that worries him....

Greater Israel? How utterly comical.

Israel is just 8,000 square miles. Where is this fictional GREATER Israel that you conjur up?

The "Greater Ottoman Empire" spanned three continents encompassing 2 million square miles.

Thanks for the chuckle.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Yes!!!

How dare that arrogant, pig-headed, black American President demand that Israel stop construction on its illegal settlements on stolen Arab land!! Who does he think he is?

Doesn't he know that God gave the West Bank to the Jews and the Jews alone?

Dr Evil put it far more intelligently, so I'll try a simpler parsing.

The political momentum within Israel over settlements over the past two decades isn't something you can simply shrug away with a "no X" proclamation. Dr Evil did a nice job explaining some of the nuances of that particularly Israeli policy matter. President Obama, by making a broad brush declaration, attempted to do what actual negoations between Isr and Pal leaders in the recent past -- ya know, the hard work of deal making -- was unable to do.

That is where hubris comes in. While I disagree with Marc on some things, I think his use of "hubris" here is very well placed.

President Obama may now and again overestimate his ability to influence events.

DR

 

[ZouPrime]

"Expedible" does not exist in the English language. Maybe, a foreign word?



Before advancing to "geopolitics," can you translate the word "expedible"?

I only have two graduate degrees, sorry.

I love how you completely sidestepped his post with the lamest angle imaginable: by criticizing his spelling!

And you do it again in your very next post!

Here's an idea: take your two graduate degrees,

Edited by LibraryLady: 

Edited for civility and general nastiness

and come back when you're ready to actually have an adult conversation.

 

[Foolmewunz]

I used the term incompetence as it seemed to fit the bill. I will try to explain.

The focus of the thread is not the overall goals over the administration, but rather the steps taken to advance these goals. My only complaint about the administration goals is that I am not sure whether confidence building measures are going to be useful at this point in time. This was only a minor complaint.

What I have argued is that the steps that the administration have taken were poorly thought out. It seems that they did not have any idea on how the sides would react to their steps. I have tried to explain their mistakes in detail, I find some of them to be trivial. Do you think I should not have expected more from this administration?

I do hope they will take some time to rethink and learn. Otherwise, I fear that they will leave the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in worse state than the one they inherited.

Unfortunately, I don't think that anyone could've expected MORE from this administration. They were going to change the world, after all (according to the devotees, at any rate).

But, from what I've seen, I don't think this administration has a plan at all, frankly. As I said, not too facetiously, "Can't we all just get along?" doesn't really cut it with something as complex as Israel-Palestin-Neighboring States.

 

[hgc]

It is Obama hubris that caused him to think that his demands on Israel to halt all settlement activity, including natural growth, would, magically, transform the history of unsuccessful negotiations.
...

Natural growth: the most absurd of all the invented "rights."

 

[Doctor Evil]

Oh my, there is more, this time having to do with the Palestinian side. Apparently, the PA has withdrawn its request that the UN would discuss the Goldstone report. Presumably due to US pressure:

Palestinian sources told Haaretz that Abbas made the decision to delay the vote immediately after meeting with the U.S. Consul General last Thursday, without the knowledge of the PLO leadership or the government of Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, and without any consultation.

Many believe that it was American pressure that led to Abbas' decision not to pursue a discussion of the report in the UN as well as at the International Criminal Court in Hague, as was previously planned.

Now I happen to think that said report is biased and inaccurate, but this is not the point I am going to make. (I do not plan to derail my own thread and discuss that here. If you are really interested, you can read this blog post, which does a better job then I could ever hope to do in expressing some of the issues.)

My point is that if Abbas has indeed was pressured by the US administration then they have made yet another serious error. They have put him in a political situation which is untenable. If the administration had a goal to prevent the report from becoming an issue which shadows the (planned) peace talks, it was much better to use some quiet diplomacy to affect the vote of other countries. As it looks, Abbas' position may be seriously harmed.

 

[Marc39]

Natural growth: the most absurd of all the invented "rights."

Yeah, can you imagine, Jews being allowed to grow? Next thing they'll ask for is to be allowed to breathe.

 

[DC]

Yeah, can you imagine, Jews being allowed to grow? Next thing they'll ask for is to be allowed to breathe.

what esactly do you mean with natural growth?

 

[funk de fino]

Yeah, can you imagine, Jews being allowed to grow? Next thing they'll ask for is to be allowed to breathe.

They dont seem to ask for permission to bleat and cry.

 

[hgc]

Yeah, can you imagine, Jews being allowed to grow? Next thing they'll ask for is to be allowed to breathe.

It's just that, before now, I've never heard of a right to live in the town where you grew up if there's no homes for you to move into, and no building permits for more, for whatever reason.

It's totally made up, invented as an excuse to continue this very, very bad policy of trying to steal Palestine through fait accompli. The children of the "settlers" are Israelis, and they can go live in Israel when they grow up and move out of their parents' homes.

 

[Doctor Evil]

Can I politely ask posters not to derail this thread.

 

[hgc]

Can I politely ask posters not to derail this thread.

Good luck with that. Which posts are derails? Just curious.

 

[Marc39]

It's just that, before now, I've never heard of a right to live in the town where you grew up if there's no homes for you to move into, and no building permits for more, for whatever reason.

It's totally made up, invented as an excuse to continue this very, very bad policy of trying to steal Palestine through fait accompli. The children of the "settlers" are Israelis, and they can go live in Israel when they grow up and move out of their parents' homes.

I recommend you study the subject matter before posting further nonsense.

The state of Israel was founded through international recognition, supported by treaties constituting international law, of the ancestral connection between Jews and Palestine--all of Palestine.

Palestine is sovereign Jewish land, much of which was purchased by Jews, by legal means, from Arab landowners, themselves, from the poorest bedouin seeking quick cash to the wealthiest of the Arab aristocracy eager to unload worthless desert and swampland with historic and religious value only to Jews.

That connection between Palestine and Jews remains unchanged and if Jews wish to expand their villages (not settlements), they are fully entitled to do so, morally, historically and legally.

 

[hgc]

I recommend you study the subject matter before posting further nonsense.

The state of Israel was founded through international recognition, supported by treaties constituting international law, of the ancestral connection between Jews and Palestine--all of Palestine.

Palestine is sovereign Jewish land, much of which was purchased by Jews, by legal means, from Arab landowners, themselves, from the poorest bedouin seeking quick cash to the wealthiest of the Arab aristocracy eager to unload worthless desert and swampland with historic and religious value only to Jews.

That connection between Palestine and Jews remains unchanged and if Jews wish to expand their villages (not settlements), they are fully entitled to do so, morally, historically and legally.

Wow... just wow. You're one of the editors of the Conservative Bible, aren't you?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Wow... just wow. You're one of the editors of the Conservative Bible, aren't you?

My good friend, Dr Evil's commentary and thread is primarily aimed at the US involvement in mediating between Pals and Israelis. I hope we can all stay on his topic. I don't think I can reach Marc with this appeal, but you and I have had some good and sporting ping pong matches in the past.

It is granted that the details, such as settlements or Gaza or Jerusalem, are all very contentious. Dr Evil points that out early on regarding the very hard, albeit quiet, effort recently put forth by Pal and Isr parties, with a failure at this point.

What is hopeful is that, unlike so many other threads on the topic, we can stay a bit more narrowly focused on the interplay between US, Pal, Isr governmental tactics and moves, rather than throw rocks at one another as we all have now and again done in threads on this class of topics.

For example, the update Dr Evil gave us on how Obama may have, even unintentionally, just made a move injurious to Fatah's leadership is of more moment than the root disagreements. Obama's goals seem to include empowering and helping Fatah as a legitiate Pal faction.

Throwing rocks over settlements or West Bank has been done to death.

DR

 

[Marc39]

Oh my, there is more, this time having to do with the Palestinian side. Apparently, the PA has withdrawn its request that the UN would discuss the Goldstone report. Presumably due to US pressure:

Now I happen to think that said report is biased and inaccurate, but this is not the point I am going to make. (I do not plan to derail my own thread and discuss that here. If you are really interested, you can read this blog post, which does a better job then I could ever hope to do in expressing some of the issues.)

My point is that if Abbas has indeed was pressured by the US administration then they have made yet another serious error. They have put him in a political situation which is untenable. If the administration had a goal to prevent the report from becoming an issue which shadows the (planned) peace talks, it was much better to use some quiet diplomacy to affect the vote of other countries. As it looks, Abbas' position may be seriously harmed.

Abbas is less an obstacle to peace negotiations with Israel than Hamas.

While Abbas has the potential as a negotiating partner, Hamas do not. Despite the US offer to recognize Hamas with a concomitant renunciation of violence against Israel, Hamas has shown no interest.

At the same time, Hamas has fended off rival clans, it has solidified its base and despite widespread economic woes in Gaza, Hamas is content to continue to exist as a resistance movement (read terrorist organization) rather than focusing on governance and forging a viable society.