A little light reading

[toddjh]

I guess I was mistaken in thinking that this was an invitation to discuss said solutions after I had provided so many links to information and resources in reply.

All right, if you insist: I don't think petitions and boycotts will affect anything. I find it hard to believe that enough people will join either to make a significant difference -- people will go to where they can get the things they want for the cheapest price. Only those who seek out information on issues like this will even know there is a boycott, much less why, and you know that the politically motivated population is very small. Manpower is too low for picketing to be very effective.

Voting is where it counts. Forget Taco Bell, take it to the polls and put that energy into convincing other people to do the same. Compile lists of candidates that have voted either for or against what you want, and put up flyers to let other people know. Get people to write to their candidates, saying they'll withhold their vote unless the candidate publicly supports the position you advocate. As it seems that most of the problems here are about enforcement rather than enactment, it sounds like you have your work cut out for you. Be clear about exactly what changes you want, and why.

Social (as opposed to political) activities like marches and other publicity actions only work when you can mobilize a very large number of people in a highly visible place. I don't think that will work here. Take it to the political level. That's your best bet.

As others have said, in order to get a lot of other people on board, you'll have to start by convincing them that this problem is worth more consideration than others. I don't think anyone believes that slavery in any form is acceptable, but it's a matter of priorities. Is the problem more serious than murders, preventable accidents, or the thousands of deaths that occur because of the sorry state of the U.S. health care system? I haven't heard you address that.

And lastly, there's a saying about honey and vinegar that I think might be helpful when it comes to your presentation.

Jeremy

 

[crimresearch]

Do you seriously believe that there would have been any progress on such issues if African Americans had taken advice to:
'Not offend anyone, and not resort to any objectionable tactics like marches and boycotts, just give it time and they will come around, and anyway its just not that big a deal?'.

(And BTW, when I was active in such causes in the 60s, there were plenty of people saying exactly that).

 

[crimresearch]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=574&e=3&u=/nm/20041006/wl_nm/crime_women_dc

"...hundreds of thousands of foreign women in western Europe, North America and Japan were working involuntarily as prostitutes after being tricked into leaving their countries on the promise of legitimate jobs.
"The women leave their home countries thinking they will be working as waitresses, babysitters, in bars or in some other type of employment that will supply them with a decent wage," McCulloch said at an Interpol meeting in Cancun, Mexico.
Organized criminals then take the women's passports, air tickets and money and force them into prostitution, sometimes under the threat of sexual and other physical violence. "


So what is the threshold number before something should be done about slavery?

 

[a_unique_person]

"Poor form" seems generous, seeing as the OP was Fri night and the whine came early Sat morning. Go figure.

And a little quote always heps set the scene, not to mention a more descriptive heading.

Australia has a problem with illegal prostitution, with illegal immigrants duped into promises of a normal job, and forced to 'pay off' 'debts'. It had been hoped that legalising prostitution would get rid of this problem, but it is still there. For example, illegal brothels can use underage workers, don't enforce hygeine and health standards, etc.

Also, the back blocks farms can exploit illegal immigrants, paying them subsistence wages for hard work.

One interesting aspect is the illegal immigrants, or refugees, who are more or less jailed until they agree to return to where they came from.

There is often a dispute as to whether they really did come from Afghanistan, (for example) as they claim, or are just aspirational Indians or Pakistanis. Then, if they do agree to return to Afghanistan, if it really is a safe place to send them back to.

There are reports of refugees being sent back and then being killed. One Palestinian cannot return, even though he wants to, as it is Israel's call as to whether or not he can return, and they don't want him back, so he could spend the rest of his life behind bars.

 

[Mycroft]

So what is the threshold number before something should be done about slavery?

I think part of the problem is that it's not looked upon as slavery so much as just a dark side of the prostitution industry.

The truth is this is worse than both. If these were "slaves" in the traditional sense, at least they would be treated as valuable property. Their health would be protected as owners wanted to protect their "investment", and they would still have value (labor) as they grew older. No, what these people are is human comodities. Life support for their marketable genetalia.

What solution is there other than increased awareness, increased law enforcement and international pressure?

 

[crimresearch]

I agree, there is an unfortunate perception that conflates the prostitutes who are literally kidnapped and held under fear of harm to themselves or their families back home, with those who turn to prostitution for a variety of other reasons.
A similar blurring of the lines occurs between sweatshop/low wage workers and those who are chained to the tables where they work.
And yet another perception creeps in regarding the plight of forced agricultural workers as opposed to migrant workers, and immigrants in general.

Still at the end of the day, actual slavery is prevalent throughout the world, and is growing in the US...

 

[crimresearch]

And in the big picture:

"The number of people forced into slavery around the world has risen to 27 million, according to a report published by an international human rights group" (2002)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/2010401.stm

So what is the point at which it becomes our problem, or it becomes OK to offend people by talking about it openly?

 

[Mycroft]

And in the big picture:

"The number of people forced into slavery around the world has risen to 27 million, according to a report published by an international human rights group" (2002)

Are you aware of any reports that give more details on how they reach this figure? Maybe something that says where these slaves are and who is keeping them?

27 million is the population of two or three small nations, that's a lot.

 

[crimresearch]

On the 27 million number, excerpted from: http://activism.freetheslaves.net/f/fact_sheet.doc

"...The vast majority of the world’s slaves are in South Asia (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal).
Africa and South America both have large numbers of slaves in some areas, and the recent increase in human trafficking is bringing slavery to many countries in Europe, North America and Southeast Asia.
...There is slavery in the United States, mostly due to human trafficking for domestic work, migrant farm labor, or work in the sex industry. Migrant workers are tricked into working for little or no pay as means of repayment for debts from their transport into the US, similar to debt bondage in South Asia. Domestic workers and women in the sex industry are trafficked into the US with promises of jobs and education and then held as slaves...
...The most common kind of slavery is debt bondage/bonded labor; a system in which a person becomes bonded by accepting a loan from a moneylender, for which they must work to repay. Workers are then tricked or trapped into laboring for little or no pay, under conditions that violate their human rights from which they cannot escape."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice the distinction of "under conditions that violate their human rights from which they cannot escape".

We aren't talking about someone who is entering into the sex trade in order to get money for cars, or drugs, nor people whose best choice for an income is doing dangerous or unpleasant work in mines and sweatshops...

These modern slaves are people who are literally forced into these situations, including those whose consent is obtained though violence, or threats of violence, as well as those below any reasonable age of consent... and of course those who don't consent at all and are held in classic whips and chains servitude.

 

[Mycroft]

Wow, that sheet of yours makes a pretty good case for legalized slavery.

 

[crimresearch]

Economically? Yeah I'm sure that the 'trickle up' effect is significant.

 

[Mycroft]

Economically? Yeah I'm sure that the 'trickle up' effect is significant.

I wasn't really thinking from an economic standpoint as much as a "greatest good" standpoint. While both are bad, legal slavery is preferable to illegal slavery.

According to the report, there are 27 million illegal slaves today. Under a system of legal slavery, it's not likely there would be so many.

Under a system of legal slavery, slaves are valued. $40k versus $90. The value of the slaves would insure they are maintained, versus the current system where these humans are considered disposable. Value would create long-term relationships between slave and owner, which would be preferable to the system as it is now where the relationship (presumably) ends with the death of the slave.

Of course, the fatal flaw of the "legalize slavery to improve it" argument is that it presumes legalized slavery would replace illegal slavery rather than exist in addition to it.

Which makes me wonder about other "legalization is good" arguments such as drug use or prostitution.

 

[crimresearch]

Quote from Mycroft:
"...legalized slavery would replace illegal slavery rather than exist in addition to it."

There is, in addition to illegal slavery, the numbers of people who are in very similar conditions, and yet don't meet the criteria of illegallly held slaves because they 'consent' to being sweatshop workers, prostitutes, migrant farm workers, burakumin at Honda, and so forth.

Some might consider them legal slaves, and the issue of their treatment (exempt from safety laws, child labor laws, overtime regulations, and so on) is not to be taken lighlty.

However, I wanted to seperate them from this discussion, because they provide a convenient means for some to marginalize the topic...

'Oh, I know all about slavery..if they would make better choices, they wouldn't have to work in those jobs...'

 

[jj]

Quote from Mycroft:
"...legalized slavery would replace illegal slavery rather than exist in addition to it."


Why? If someone is willing to behave atrociously when it's only illegal, why are they going to be willing to be a touch less atrocious when something is legal?

I don't really see any economic argument to it, either.


Some might consider them legal slaves, and the issue of their treatment (exempt from safety laws, child labor laws, overtime regulations, and so on) is not to be taken lighlty.


In such cases "free to leave" can be the same as "free to starve".

It is an unpleasant dilemma. I don't have a good, practical solution, and I'm not aware anyone else does.


However, I wanted to seperate them from this discussion, because they provide a convenient means for some to marginalize the topic...


How would somebody do that? Well, wait, never mind, somebody already has marginalized the topic, eh, Mycroft?


'Oh, I know all about slavery..if they would make better choices, they wouldn't have to work in those jobs...'

Well, except that that's an obvious evasion. I don't think that too many people here would see that kind of response as anything but an evasion.