A line from Berkeley...

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
If everything is inside me and there is no external reality, where does my sense of time come from?

Ever been in one of those sensory deprivation chambers... or maybe waited for a teakettle to whistle? Your sense of time is as subjective as any other.

Does it mean anything that this time flows in only one direction, if at a variable rate? I'm not sure; I can't fully get my head around the implications. But it seems to me it only says that you're a Forward-Thinking Individual. :D
 
uruk said:

I agree as long you are talking about the internal mental representation of the universe and not assuming on the supposed existance or non existance of the universe.
Tell us of this external universe. Take us beyond the boundlessness of the Mind where "we" exist, beyond sensations, thoughts & feelings. Remembering that the "things" we see reside amongst our very sensations, which are internal to our awareness. Hence, even our knowledge of reality is a knowledge of an inner-universe.

And then perhaps, explain to this forum how anything can exist externally to an intangible formless state of being.
If you accept the reality of your formless (intangible) state of being ("to exist is one thing, to be perceived is another"), then it is ludicrous to talk of a state of being external to this because your state of being possesses no definite position (no form).
It's impossible, for example, to stand 6 feet away from an imaginary mermaid since the mermaid has no definite form or hence position.
Likewise, if the Mind-reality in which we reside is shown to be without form (intangible in its constructs/functions/attributes), then it is ludicrous to ask what exists next to it or external to it. The question makes no sense.
 
RandFan said:
Once you do this Dave, I can explain the duality between classical and quantum physics, and even between the particle and the wave. I can also explain the apparent weirdness inherent within relativity. And then I can show you why an entity which experiences an abstract universe = the creator of that universe = God.
I just need you to lend me your ears Dave. Or is the philosophy too dangerous for your worldly survival?

Let's assume that you are correct. Please explain all of these concepts.
Okay, "assuming I am correct" (please remember this as you read my responses), I shall proceed...

(1). "I can explain the duality between classical and quantum physics,".
The Mind (of God) has free-will. Therefore, the energy of God is essentially unpredictable. But the Mind is the source of its own perceived order. The "things" we perceive through our everyday sensations conform to the general order of classical physics. Yet we all know that, fundamentally, the constituent energy of the forms we see is essentially unpredictable. Hence the duality between what is observed and the reality of its constituent energy. Hence qm and classical.

(2). "and even between the particle and the wave".
"Things" do not exist, definitely and singularly, until seen within consciousness/awareness. We see "things". Until we observe anything, it behaves as a wave. Hence, without conscious observation no "thing" exists anyway.
There's an experiment where they emit a single electron and give it the opportunity to traverse two paths. Until observed, the electron traverses both paths, simultaneously, affecting receptors along those paths. Interestingly, once the experiment is observed, the electron behaves as a singular/definite entity and traverses only one path. The electron becomes a singular "thing" within our sight.

(3). "I can also explain the apparent weirdness inherent within relativity."
I contend that light is imposed upon awareness by the Mind itself. This is a fact since whatever we perceive is just the abstract sensation itself, imposed upon awareness by that Mind. Hence, the Mind is the true source of the light we perceive and not the "thing" we actually see as a result of this light. For example, I contend that the Mind is the source of the Sun's light... not that the Sun is the source of that light. Remember that my philosophy contends that "things" are seen from the sensations. First the sensation, then the "thing". So, the Sun in itself is the source of nothing. The light we see gives the awareness/appearance of a "thing" we label 'the Sun'.
Hence, acceleration towards or away from an object will not alter the way you see the speed-of-light since the object is not the source of that light. The Mind itself is... and one truly cannot accelerate from or towards the Mind itself. Thus, the constancy of lightspeed 'c'.

(4) "And then I can show you why an entity which experiences an abstract universe = the creator of that universe = God.".
There is no position in which to hold an intangible experience/event (see my previous post to uruk). It is clear that an intangible event can only occur within an intangible 'medium'.
Whatever "you" really are - embracing the whole perceived universe of "things" within you - we can be sure of two things:-
(a). You are a formless being, without bounds. Hence, it is ludicrous to even contemplate a reality beyond your own true identity/nature.
(b). You ("Randfan" is the experience being had by the true you) created the sensations being had upon awareness. You created the awareness of being Randfan and have become immersed and lost within this self-imposed dream.
We know this because any entity which experiences a completely subjective/abstract reality must be the primal-cause of that reality. The external-universe (even if it did exist) neither cares nor knows about sensations, thoughts & feelings. Hence, any entity which is aware of such things must be the primal-cause of them.
Also, as I have said, it is ludicrous to discuss a reality external to the Mind. Hence, we can be sure it has created the whole universe, as perceived.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A line from Berkeley...

gentlehorse said:
Okay, let's say you've shown me that I'm God and I've imposed the experience of being me on myself. With this in mind, I endeavor to transform my ego so that it is content with the unity of humanity. Let's say that I'm successful in doing so.

Would this transformation affect anyone other than me and those close to me?
I expect that depends upon the measure of your "Christ consciousness".
Can an atheist successfully transform his/her ego so that it's content with the unity of humanity?
Yes. All it takes is a sincere willingness and effort to do so. We are all God.

John 10:34 -> "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods'?"

Psalm 82:6
I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

John 14:20 -> "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
 
lifegazer said:
~snip~ (4) "...Whatever "you" really are - embracing the whole perceived universe of "things" within you - we can be sure of two things:
(a). You are a formless being, without bounds. Hence, it is ludicrous to even contemplate a reality beyond your own true identity/nature...

The external-universe (even if it did exist) neither cares nor knows about sensations, thoughts & feelings. Hence, any entity which is aware of such things must be the primal-cause of them.

Also, as I have said, it is ludicrous to discuss a reality external to the Mind. Hence, we can be sure it has created the whole universe, as perceived.
Lifegazer,

Consider that you live at the top of a hill with a road that sweeps down the hill in a kind of a V curve. One day you are hiking down the hill and it's a beautiful day of sunshine and soft breezes and your experience is one of real harmony. The air carries a familiar sound. It is a neighborhood kid is coming up the hill on her little bike.She has rounded the V curve almost as you arrive at it and the sight of her makes you smile. The pink jacketed, blond headed bundle of exertion pedals toward you.

When the red faced girl's ascent brings her even and she see's you smiling she does something unexpected. She flips you the bird. How unharmonious! But you continue walking down determined not to let your spiritual experience of harmony be derailed.

As you reach the curve's vertex you can see far down the hill. In the far distance you see a lone car wending it's way toward the base of the hill to begin it's climb. Suddenly, behind you, you hear a crash and you whirl around to see the little girl laying in the road moaning, with the bike lying on top of her. She doesn't seem to be getting up, you see one of her feet tangled in the spokes of the rear bicycle wheel.

What is the reality of this event?
1) If the little girl doesn't move she will likely be run over by the approaching car as it wheels around the curve.
2) This little girl doesn't seem to be an agent of world harmony.
3) You are acutely aware that nothing of this is real but you are experiencing an "interesting" moment of the Mind's illusion.

What do you do?
1) Envy the experience of the little girl that is about to know nonexistence even more fully than you.
2) Turn again toward the pleasant harmonious experience of hiking down the hill in sunshine.
3) Thank the Mind for it's ability to choose it's own reality and to dispense with unharmonious aspects of lifegazer's experience.
4) Forget philosophy. Save the real girl from getting run over by the real car.

Is there any way that you can think of that , knowing your objective reality is nonexistent, alters your behavior ? (Besides tapping your keyboard defending your idea that the keyboard doesn't really exist.)
 
lifegazer said:


(3). "I can also explain the apparent weirdness inherent within relativity."
Hence, acceleration towards or away from an object will not alter the way you see the speed-of-light since the object is not the source of that light. The Mind itself is... and one truly cannot accelerate from or towards the Mind itself. Thus, the constancy of lightspeed 'c'.

Irrelevant since we can no more move away than accelerate so there is no speed at all so relativity is irrelevant so you don't need to discuss it any more. Please.

The "abstract experience" stuff I ignored as it's been hashed over befoe.
 
Scribble said:
Ever been in one of those sensory deprivation chambers... or maybe waited for a teakettle to whistle? Your sense of time is as subjective as any other.
That's not what I was asking. I'm supposing a world in which there is nothing external to me, not just one in which sensory input has been damped. Where would I get a sense of time, since there would be nothing against which to measure the passing of time? There is no external change at all to act as a clock.

~~ Paul
 
Lifegazer said:
Hence, acceleration towards or away from an object will not alter the way you see the speed-of-light since the object is not the source of that light. The Mind itself is... and one truly cannot accelerate from or towards the Mind itself. Thus, the constancy of lightspeed 'c'.
But the mind is also the source of the object. Why does its apparent speed change?

~~ Paul
 
lifegazer said:
Also, as I have said, it is ludicrous to discuss a reality external to the Mind. Hence, we can be sure it has created the whole universe, as perceived.
Non-sequitur.

As to the rest, pretty disappointing. :(

Sorry lifegazer,

There are some very serious flaws with your explanations. Chief amongst them is inconsistency. For some odd reason there needs be order that is predictable and measurable. Why? At the same time phenomenon that is difficult to explain is explained by stating that we don't exist. ???

(1) Constituent energy from something that doesn't exist? Your philosophy is simply convenient.

(2) A lot of double speak and I'm not certain if things exist or not.

(3) Again, why can we measure the speed of light to a very exacting degree yet "acceleration towards or away from an object will not alter the way you see the speed-of-light".

(4a) You have yet to establish why contemplating reality is ludicrous? You have only made an assertion that it follows from the fact that our understanding of the real world is subjective.

Again, this is a non sequitur. It could be, It could not be.

(4b) Whether the universe cares or doesn't is immaterial to your conclusion. You conclude things without justification.

I'm sorry to piss on your parade but that was very unenlightening. Just a hodgepodge of rhetoric. I'm sure you are very taken with it and I am now to be the brunt of your frustration. Sorry, do what you must but I don't think you will be awarded a Nobel prize.
 
RandFan said:
For some odd reason there needs be order that is predictable and measurable. Why?
What a dumb question. How can we share a common experience unless there is a common order of perception?
At the same time phenomenon that is difficult to explain is explained by stating that we don't exist. ???
What??
(1) Constituent energy from something that doesn't exist? Your philosophy is simply convenient.
God exists.
(2) A lot of double speak and I'm not certain if things exist or not.
You call this a response?
(3) Again, why can we measure the speed of light to a very exacting degree yet "acceleration towards or away from an object will not alter the way you see the speed-of-light".
I explained that the Mind is the source of all perceived light. You obviously paid little attention to my post.
(4a) You have yet to establish why contemplating reality is ludicrous? You have only made an assertion that it follows from the fact that our understanding of the real world is subjective.
You aren't listening. We are living an intangible existence and the universe we are experiencing exists within us. Neither we or the universe within us has real form. Thus, it is stupid to ask what exists externally to a reality that possesses no form.
(4b) Whether the universe cares or doesn't is immaterial to your conclusion. You conclude things without justification.
The universe does not force any entity to have an abstract experience. It is obvious to anybody with just a modicum of intelligence that an entity is the primal-cause of its own abstract experiences.
I'm sorry to piss on your parade
I would expect little else from you. Your response was pathetic and exhibited a lack of attention combined with low intelligence. I'd rather you didn't participate in future, thankyou.
but that was very unenlightening. Just a hodgepodge of rhetoric. I'm sure you are very taken with it and I am now to be the brunt of your frustration. Sorry, do what you must but I don't think you will be awarded a Nobel prize.
Screw the nobel prize.
 
Krandal2 said:
But a distinction has to be made between perception (the mind observing something outside of itself) and cognition (the mind observing itself) of which dreams and fantasies are an example.
No, both are examples of perception. The system of the brain that monitors other systems can't monitor itself. Monitoring other processes within the brain isn't different from monitoring processes outside of the brain.

At least lifegazer's basic point - that your experiences are artificially constructed within your mind and cannot be regarded as 'objective' - is correct.
 
lifegazer said:
What a dumb question. How can we share a common experience unless there is a common order of perception?
But then the order gets difficult to explain and you simply state it is because we don't exist.

You are being inconsistent.

God exists.
An assumption that leads nowhere.

You call this a response?
It is accurate.

I explained that the Mind is the source of all perceived light. You obviously paid little attention to my post.
I did pay attention. Your post is not self-consistent, it is incoherent.

You aren't listening. We are living an intangible existence and the universe we are experiencing exists within us. Neither we or the universe within us has real form. Thus, it is stupid to ask what exists externally to a reality that possesses no form.
You are assuming that which you are trying to prove. Your logic is circular.

The universe does not force any entity to have an abstract experience. It is obvious to anybody with just a modicum of intelligence that an entity is the primal-cause of its own abstract experiences.
Ad hominem.

I would expect little else from you. Your response was pathetic and exhibited a lack of attention combined with low intelligence. I'd rather you didn't participate in future, thankyou.
Again, more ad hominem.

You will have to ignore me or talk to the moderators. This non-existing god perception isn't through. So your non-existing god perception is going to have to put up with me a little while longer. My ultimate motivation is not to be a jerk but to understand. You are going to have to do a better job. I think Atlas is correct. I think you could clean your philosophy up a bit so that it is somewhat presentable. You have a ways to go.

Screw the nobel prize.
There is no cause for your non-existing god perception to be vulgar. :D

Toughen up your skin and take a course in philosophy.

RandFan
 
Re: Re: Re: A line from Berkeley...

lifegazer said:

The construct of dreams is largely founded upon the individual's emotional disposition. The construct of conscious reality is free from such emotional considerations and hence is universal in that the laws of physics remain unaltered by our emotions.

But what dreams are do not bear that out. For example, I just recently had a dream where I was in a room with some other people, and there was a bear panted on a wall, I knew that there was a tomb hidden behind the painting of the bear, it was even said. But then, for no aparent reason, we all started digging in the floor. That is simply logically inconsistent, it has nothing to do with emotion.
 
lifegazer said:

Why not? Tell this forum (and me) of any knowledge you have gleaned of the universe beyond your perception.

The point you made is that no one has, wasn't it? So why don't you tell us the knowledge you have gleaned of anything beyond what you have learned through perception. Oh? none, well then, you don't know what you are perceiving, you don't know if a material universe exists or not.
 
lifegazer said:

Scribble, do me a favour and say something worthwhile that is relevant to this very credible thread. Or go and annoy somebody else.
Thankyou, in anticipation of your co-operation.

geez, why apologize to someone if they are just going to insult you in return. There's that unity for you
 
lifegazer said:
Actually Dave, it's very very important to my philosophy that you just acknowledge that the "things" you perceive are not real in themselves. I.e., that "To exist is one thing, and to be perceived is another.".

So we accept the first half on faith...


Once you do this Dave, I can explain the duality between classical and quantum physics, and even between the particle and the wave.

A) There is no "true" duality.
B) You have shown no understand of QM or physics in general, even to the point of embracing QM while insulting other theories (ie, string)
C) The things you are tring to explain have already been explain. Add to that, that your explainations could not be used to predict any processes in QM, so they are not complete.


I can also explain the apparent weirdness inherent within relativity.

There is no weirdness. And if you can explain relativity, can you derive the time dialation formula? If not, then no, you cannot explain relativity.


And then I can show you why an entity which experiences an abstract universe = the creator of that universe = God.
I just need you to lend me your ears Dave. Or is the philosophy too dangerous for your worldly survival?

Oh yes, he thinks that such radical ideas are too dangerous, we all do, which is why we all seem to have such "trouble" accepting them. Also, we are all members of a secret global society trying to cover up those ideas.
 
lifegazer said:

And then perhaps, explain to this forum how anything can exist externally to an intangible formless state of being.

I've already explained how this is possible, however, since you are using this dichotomy in an attempt to validate your philosophy, and you cannot counter my explaination, you continue to ignore it.
 
lifegazer said:

(1). "I can explain the duality between classical and quantum physics,".

OK, great, but there is no duality, there is no classical physics, just classical physics do not actually exist, they are merely an approximation. So unless you are about to explain that classical physics is an approximation of quantum physics, you would be wrong (I can show you mathematically how this is true if you would like)


The Mind (of God) has free-will. Therefore, the energy of God is essentially unpredictable.

A) God does not have energy, if he did, he would be existing within an existence where energy is a property. Is god existing within an existence, or is he existence?

Second, what does it mean for energy to be unpredictable. The roll of a die can be said to be unpredictable in one sense, you will always get anywhere from a 1 to a 6. However, in another sense, it is predictable, there is an equal chance you will get any number 1 to 6, and you will NEVER get any other number. True unpredictability would not have these limitations, and I am guessing, that since your god's free-will is complete or whatever, then would it have these limitations of predictability?

I think not, however, energy within our universe does have these limitations. Also, it makes no sense to compare whatever property energy would be where god exists, with energy in the "universe" since they are not the same thing.


But the Mind is the source of its own perceived order. The "things" we perceive through our everyday sensations conform to the general order of classical physics.

No, they don't. I sense things everyday that do not conform to classical approximations of quantum equations.


Yet we all know that, fundamentally, the constituent energy of the forms we see is essentially unpredictable. Hence the duality between what is observed and the reality of its constituent energy. Hence qm and classical.

You haven't explained anything. You haven't even understood the problem to begin with.


(2). "and even between the particle and the wave".

There is no duality because there is no particle.


"Things" do not exist, definitely and singularly, until seen within consciousness/awareness.

But then you are saying that things do exist, and before you said they do not exist. Which is it?


We see "things". Until we observe anything, it behaves as a wave.

Everything always behaves like a wave.


Hence, without conscious observation no "thing" exists anyway.

Conciousness has no effect on QM. The word "Observation" in physics does not refer to consciousness, no one needs to know the result of an "observation" for the observation to have an effect.


There's an experiment where they emit a single electron and give it the opportunity to traverse two paths. Until observed, the electron traverses both paths, simultaneously, affecting receptors along those paths. Interestingly, once the experiment is observed, the electron behaves as a singular/definite entity and traverses only one path. The electron becomes a singular "thing" within our sight.

There are so many things wrong with this statement, I'm not sure where to begin. Firstly, consciousness could not have an effect, because by the time the information from any receptor reaches any technitian, the electron has already completed it's path. So by the time the experiment is observed by anyone, the electron has already been obsorbed in the target area, the conscious observation could not have any effect on the electron's path.

Second, there is no experiment where an electron traverses two paths and is detected by receptors along both paths . If a receptor "picks up" the precence of an electron, then the wave function is collapsed, we know which path the electron took, and the other receptor will not detect anything.

Third, the process of a receptor (whatever that receptor may be, even another particle) "picking up" the precense of an electron IS what is refered to as an observation.

Fouth, an electron is never a singular defined entity, it is always described as a wave. The description of an electron as a particle is an approximation.


(3). "I can also explain the apparent weirdness inherent within relativity."
I contend that light is imposed upon awareness by the Mind itself.

You contend that everytnhing is imposed upon awareness by the Mind itself. [Side note: This means that we are always perceiving a reality outside our awareness, the reality that the Mind is imposing on our awareness. This runs counter to many, many of your other statements that try to shoot down any possiblity of a reality outside our awareness]


This is a fact since whatever we perceive is just the abstract sensation itself, imposed upon awareness by that Mind.

That seems rather cicular doesn't it? A is a fact because A?


Hence, the Mind is the true source of the light we perceive and not the "thing" we actually see as a result of this light. For example, I contend that the Mind is the source of the Sun's light... not that the Sun is the source of that light.

But if I crash into the Sun, I will see that the "thing" the sun is no more or less real than the light that I percieve. Hence, you contend that the Mind is the source of both the Sun, and the light. Also, by our current understandings of "Things" and light, light is just as much of a "Thing" as a "Thing". energy<->matter


Remember that my philosophy contends that "things" are seen from the sensations. First the sensation, then the "thing". So, the Sun in itself is the source of nothing.

Yes it is, in the conceptual view of the universe by the Mind. In the Mind's imagination, the "Sun" is emenating rays of light.


The light we see gives the awareness/appearance of a "thing" we label 'the Sun'.
Hence, acceleration towards or away from an object will not alter the way you see the speed-of-light since the object is not the source of that light.

OK, but then the same argument would apply to sound. Sound is a sensation impressed upon our awareness by the Mind. The "thing" is not the source of the sound, the Mind is. Hence, acceleration towards or away from an object will not alter the way you see the speed-of-sound since the object is not the source of that sound.

I fail to see you being able to rectify that inconsistency, I much more likely see you ignoring it completely, since you (or anyone) is totally incapable of explaining it. You will instead, go on your merry way, and repeat your whole relativity tripe over and over. Your philosophy predicts the speed of sound is absolute.

Also, if the speed of light is a property, so is it's color. And the color of light coming from a source most certainly changes as we accelrate towards or away from an object. Are you saying the doppler shift doesn't exist?


The Mind itself is... and one truly cannot accelerate from or towards the Mind itself. Thus, the constancy of lightspeed 'c'.

...but we aren't trying to accelerate towards or away from the mind, we are trying to accelerate towards or away from what we perceive as things, even if our perception of things are only our imagination.

oh, btw, Thus, the constancy of the speed of sound


(a). You are a formless being, without bounds. Hence, it is ludicrous to even contemplate a reality beyond your own true identity/nature.

So if we assume your philosohpy, it is pointless to assume otherwise. Seems to be the position you've taken up.


We know this because any entity which experiences a completely subjective/abstract reality must be the primal-cause of that reality.

Unless something/someone else created that being. Also, primal-cause assumes that time exists outside of reality.


The external-universe (even if it did exist) neither cares nor knows about sensations, thoughts & feelings.

Ok, it doesn't care, which proves...


Hence, any entity which is aware of such things must be the primal-cause of them.

Simply because you don't care about something, doesn't mean you can't cause it to happen. Ice does not care if it melts, and yet it does.


Also, as I have said, it is ludicrous to discuss a reality external to the Mind. Hence, we can be sure it has created the whole universe, as perceived.

hehe, because my philosophy is true, it is crazy to entertain any other ideas, hence, I can be sure that I am right, and will sleep soundly at night.
 
lifegazer said:

What a dumb question. How can we share a common experience unless there is a common order of perception?

What is a "common order of perception" and what is a "common experience". I don't think we share either. We share a common reality, but perception and experience are bouth very subjective.

BTW, in QM, you can measure however accurately you want. You can know the precise position, or velocity of a particle, just never both. Also, reality does not need to be completly predictable for us to share that reality.


We are living an intangible existence and the universe we are experiencing exists within us. Neither we or the universe within us has real form.

What I assume is true...


Thus, it is stupid to ask what exists externally to a reality that possesses no form.

Thus, it is stupid to discuss any alternate ideas.

Anyway, he is not asking what exists externally to reality. The question only gets phrased in that way if we assume your philosophy isn't true. Why don't you climb out of your spider hole for a second and comtemplate questions from an un-biased perspective.

Plus, it makes no sense to say "a reality that possesses form/or no form" as the question assumes that there is some external vantage point to determine that from.


The universe does not force any entity to have an abstract experience. It is obvious to anybody with just a modicum of intelligence that an entity is the primal-cause of its own abstract experiences.

Same old false dicothomy you keep using over and over again. It has been countered, you have not responded. Using it again and again just makes you look less credible as a person.


I would expect little else from you. Your response was pathetic and exhibited a lack of attention combined with low intelligence. I'd rather you didn't participate in future, thankyou.

Insult insult insult. Do you gain pleasure form insulting others? Do you need to insult others to feel better about yourself? Does it make it easier to dismiss the ideas of other people if you insult them? You can continue to attack the individual instead of the argument if you wish, but it will not advance your ideas, merely stifle discussion of them.
 
Tell us of this external universe. Take us beyond the boundlessness of the Mind where "we" exist, beyond sensations, thoughts & feelings. Remembering that the "things" we see reside amongst our very sensations, which are internal to our awareness. Hence, even our knowledge of reality is a knowledge of an inner-universe.

There is an external world. Our senses interacting with this world generates stimuli. Our perceptions are formed from the stimuli. Our senses tells us of things in this external world when they come into the boundry of our awareness.There are things which have existed prior to my existance. (my parents, this planet, a '57 chevy)

I know and admit that I am making an assumption on the existance of an external world but I am trusting what my senses tell me because they haven't steered me wrong yet. I can not percieve anything else other than this world.

Your still stuck in your faulty logic loop. Just because our perception of the universe is internal does not mean an external world does not exist.

I answered. Now it's your turn. How does the fact that our perceptions are internal negate the existance of an external world? Please refrain from using circular logic (i.e. "an external world does exist because an external world does not exist") or
Non sequiter logic (i.e. Neither we or the universe within us has real form. Thus, it is stupid to ask what exists externally to a reality that possesses no form.)
 

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