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A hypothetical gun control proposal

Kestrel said:
It's illegal for a dealer to knowingly sell to a straw buyer. Even assuming the dealer knew, the ATF has to prove it to pull a license.
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Then you didn't mean that any illegal sales were traced to retailers?

If an illegal sale is traced to a retailer, that retailer is in trouble. Especially if it happens more than once.

It seems unlikely that a retailer is going to risk his core business just to make a little extra money on straw sales.

http://jamesbardwell.blogspot.com/2012/01/ffl-revocation.html

IMO, the whole story of where guns recovered in Mexico originated is a bit fishy when you look into it.
 
shawmutt said:
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[*]Any business will have the right to exclude weapons from their premises and by doing so they accept strict liability for protecting their employees, customers and visitors.
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Why do gun grabbers make all the rules and expect gun owners to make all the compromises?
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I am interested in that one. Would businesses who allow guns on the premises for protection have to accept strict liability for injury or death to innocents during a shoot out?
 
shawmutt said:
In other news, Sam Harris has a pretty good rationale for guns (reposted from one of the other (now 11) gun threads: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-riddle-of-the-gun
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This is drivel.

"Like most gun owners, I understand the ethical importance of guns and cannot honestly wish for a world without them. I suspect that sentiment will shock many readers. Wouldn’t any decent person wish for a world without guns? In my view, only someone who doesn’t understand violence could wish for such a world. A world without guns is one in which the most aggressive men can do more or less anything they want."

Non sequitur. No guns does not mean the aggressor wins. No rule of law means the aggressor wins.


" It is a world in which a man with a knife can rape and murder a woman in the presence of a dozen witnesses, and none will find the courage to intervene."

Utter rubbish, people do intervene, people do have the courage. This suggests only those with guns are brave and are fit to be guardians over the rest of us like a vigilante fantasy.


"There have been cases of prison guards (who generally do not carry guns) helplessly standing by as one of their own was stabbed to death by a lone prisoner armed with an improvised blade. The hesitation of bystanders in these situations makes perfect sense—and “diffusion of responsibility” has little to do with it."

There have been many brave interventions by prison guards as well. Having a gun does not mean no hesitancy in any given situation.

"The fantasies of many martial artists aside, to go unarmed against a person with a knife is to put oneself in very real peril, regardless of one’s training. The same can be said of attacks involving multiple assailants. A world without guns is a world in which no man, not even a member of Seal Team Six, can reasonably expect to prevail over more than one determined attacker at a time."

Some people are brave, some are cowards, giving a coward a gun will not necessarily make them brave, or able to shoot accurately under pressure. There is a lot of fantasising by a gun owner going on here.

"A world without guns, therefore, is one in which the advantages of youth, size, strength, aggression, and sheer numbers are almost always decisive. Who could be nostalgic for such a world?"

I am not nostalgic for a world where the guy with the gun rules.
 
LTC8K6 said:
Then you didn't mean that any illegal sales were traced to retailers?

If an illegal sale is traced to a retailer, that retailer is in trouble. Especially if it happens more than once.

It seems unlikely that a retailer is going to risk his core business just to make a little extra money on straw sales.

http://jamesbardwell.blogspot.com/2012/01/ffl-revocation.html

IMO, the whole story of where guns recovered in Mexico originated is a bit fishy when you look into it.
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Off the top, news video footage of firearms and munitions that are not commercially available in the U.S. while the voice over recounts U.S. retail sales as the source seems a bit suspicious.

No mention of the disposition of the weapons and munitions imported from former soviet countries for use by the Contras, nor of the muntions sold off from the Sandinistas when they demobbed.

I don't doubt for a minute that U.S. retail sale is the source of high quality handguns for Mexican crime families, but the assertion that MG's, RPG's and grenades are being sold at retail in the U.S. and smuggled into Mexico is flat out ********. AW's too for that matter.

Other than the "controlled" sales in Fast & Furious...
 
R.Mackey said:
They're cheap. Widely issued to police departments, then sold (after being beat to heck and reconditioned) for bottom dollar. Purchased by people who don't actually intend to use them, just want something "in case" without thinking it through, and their only critierion is price. These get stolen in higher numbers, both due to availability and due to poor usage / storage habits on the part of their owners. Wind up being used in crimes (if the theft itself isn't what puts it on the list).

Simple.
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Isn't this a good argument for training/licensing/registration to ensure that people who don't really want a gun, haven't thought it through and won't use or store the weapon responsibly are deterred from making a thoughtless almost 'impulse' purchase that is more likely to land in the hands of a criminal that one that has been purchased by a better informed owner who has considered the purchase and attendant responsibilities?
 
BStrong said:
Off the top, news video footage of firearms and munitions that are not commercially available in the U.S. while the voice over recounts U.S. retail sales as the source seems a bit suspicious.

No mention of the disposition of the weapons and munitions imported from former soviet countries for use by the Contras, nor of the muntions sold off from the Sandinistas when they demobbed.

I don't doubt for a minute that U.S. retail sale is the source of high quality handguns for Mexican crime families, but the assertion that MG's, RPG's and grenades are being sold at retail in the U.S. and smuggled into Mexico is flat out ********. AW's too for that matter.

Other than the "controlled" sales in Fast & Furious...
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With the highlighted, I wouldn't be so quick to assume this. There are many high quality producers of handguns in Central and South America. Brazil comes to mind right away.

I don't doubt for a second that handguns do also come from the US...but there is a second border in Mexico, as well as a lax port authority...
 
P.J. Denyer said:
Isn't this a good argument for training/licensing/registration to ensure that people who don't really want a gun, haven't thought it through and won't use or store the weapon responsibly are deterred from making a thoughtless almost 'impulse' purchase that is more likely to land in the hands of a criminal that one that has been purchased by a better informed owner who has considered the purchase and attendant responsibilities?
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Good gawd, man! Periods and commas are your friends!

But, I agree. ;)
 
BStrong said:
Any numbers to support your assertion?

So far are we on dodge 2 or 3, I've lost count.
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The weapons traced to the US were sold at retail, not shipped directly to the Mexican cartels. This isn't a hard concept to understand.
 
Sabretooth said:
With the highlighted, I wouldn't be so quick to assume this. There are many high quality producers of handguns in Central and South America. Brazil comes to mind right away.

I don't doubt for a second that handguns do also come from the US...but there is a second border in Mexico, as well as a lax port authority...
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My belief is that the HK USP's, various Glock models and SIG's are primarily sourced from the US, as well as the high performance handgun caliber JHP's.

The various SA manufacturers indeed make a decent product (Argentina in particular) but the prefered pistols for drug runners are the examples noted above.

On the other hand, I've personally inspected two examples of sterile firearms siezed in a shipment bound for the former Yugoslavia back in the 90's - one was a metric FAL rifle variant, the other a BHP type pistol.

Both firearms had caliber markings only - no manufacturering stamps or model stamps. My best swag is that they came from Argentina or Brazil.

I know of no such examples turning up in Mexico.
 
Sabretooth said:
With the highlighted, I wouldn't be so quick to assume this. There are many high quality producers of handguns in Central and South America. Brazil comes to mind right away.

I don't doubt for a second that handguns do also come from the US...but there is a second border in Mexico, as well as a lax port authority...
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Tens of thousands of firearms found in the hands of Mexican criminals have been traced by serial number. They came from us manufacturers and importers and were originally sold by licensed dealers in the US. This isn't an assumption, it's real hard data as to the sources of the firearms.

Yes, some weapons may have come from other sources, but the vast majority of firearms in the hands of Mexican criminal came from the US.
 
Kestrel said:
Tens of thousands of firearms found in the hands of Mexican criminals have been traced by serial number. They came from us manufacturers and importers and were originally sold by licensed dealers in the US. This isn't an assumption, it's real hard data as to the sources of the firearms.

Yes, some weapons may have come from other sources, but the vast majority of firearms in the hands of Mexican criminal came from the US.
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I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, that what you posted in correct despite the fact the you haven't provided where you are sourcing this idea...

...that being said...how do you propose the US gets a better handle on this? Keep in mind, the US/Mexican border is rather large and BP can't get a handle on the drugs/people that are cruising across on a daily basis.
 
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seycyrus said:
I find it ironic that appeal to emotion is the primary driver of the anitgunner's in JREF, a forum which purportedly is dedicated to critical thinking and abhors (again supposedly) logical fallacy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BEdBbor7p0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzKXrqdpbd4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQiVBvy0m0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...&feature=iv&src_vid=eeQiVBvy0m0&v=0R3uLTnzs60
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Please spare us from argument by YouTube. Participants on this forum can read, and arguments in text are more convenient to examine and reply to.
 
Kestrel said:
Please spare us from argument by YouTube. Participants on this forum can read, and arguments in text are more convenient to examine and reply to.
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My primary conjecture was in textual form. Do you wish to respond to that?

I shared the videos, because I believed the videos were interesting.
 
Sabretooth said:
I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, that what you posted in correct despite the fact the you haven't provided where you are sourcing this idea...

...that being said...how do you propose the US gets a better handle on this? Keep in mind, the US/Mexican border is rather large and BP can't get a handle on the drugs/people that are cruising across on a daily basis.
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El Paso Times: Most guns at Mexican crime scenes traced to US.

As for solutions, we could start by tracking firearms registrations with computers, perhaps doing it online. Making it easier to detect purchase patterns that indicate a straw buyer. Close the private seller loophole and make it a crime to transfer any firearm without a background check and registration to the new owner.
 
Kestrel said:
El Paso Times: Most guns at Mexican crime scenes traced to US.
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Thank you.

As for solutions, we could start by tracking firearms registrations with computers, perhaps doing it online. Making it easier to detect purchase patterns that indicate a straw buyer.
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I don't disagree with the theory...just not sure on the practice. I wonder if these folk, intent on distribution, won't just spread out the operations and/or use aliases to continue stockpiling?

I think it would help in the short term, though.

Close the private seller loophole and make it a crime to transfer any firearm without a background check and registration to the new owner.
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We agree on something.

I'd also add that sales to non-citizens of the USA are prohibited.

Further, I'd recommend mandatory, and immediate, reporting of stolen or "lost" firearms.

I have other ideas as well...but I'm pooling them for one of the other threads.
 
seycyrus said:
I find it ironic that appeal to emotion is the primary driver of the anitgunner's in JREF, a forum which purportedly is dedicated to critical thinking and abhors (again supposedly) logical fallacy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BEdBbor7p0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzKXrqdpbd4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQiVBvy0m0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...&feature=iv&src_vid=eeQiVBvy0m0&v=0R3uLTnzs60
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Lots of appeals to emotion and rhetoric in those links. Nothing really in the way of evidence and argument rather than logic.
 
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