A Conversation with Ruby

[Ruby]

Excellent stuff, Ruby!

Thanks. You have no idea how good that is to hear!

 

[LFTKBS]

Are you a bigot because you believe the set of {all non-Christians} is going to hell?

"No, I'm not. Because I'm not labeling a group with negative characteristics."

Well, I would say that the state of being "unsaved" and destined "to burn in hell for all eternity" is a negative characteristic. Wouldn't you?

How do you know so much about sadism and fear?

Spend any amount of time with religious people and you learn about it rather quickly.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby,

You are one of the most peaceful and respectful people on the board, I don't know why Christian would feel that you have constantly badmouthed christians or anything. I have a hard time undestanding why C. is having this conversation with you, I have read the thread a number of times. At least you make sense.

Peace

You are a sweetheart!

 

[wollery]

I don't know why Christian would feel that you have constantly badmouthed christians or anything.

I can't figure this one either, I've read a lot of Ruby's posts, some of them have a go at Christianity, but she always tries to be nice about people, even the ones that treated her badly. Some of her posts relate first hand experiences of the way some christians behave, behaviour which she considers hypocritical and unchristian, but I don't see how giving your opinion on events that you have experienced is "badmouthing" somebody.

 

[Dancing David]

Dear Christian:

I have read this thread three times and I am still trying to understand what your problem is, Ruby has always been very careful to state that her beliefs and thoughts and feelings are her own and that they are a product of her own personal history and life experience. I think that you have some pie in the sky attitude towards a church that is just fu;; of shot to the point of overflowing.

You seem to want to even tell Ruby why she did the things she did, who the heck are you to tell her what she thinks or feels or why she does what she does.

I present you with a tool a maturity

boundaries

Maybe you are not Ruby, maybe you are not one of the crap filled hatemongering bigots that seem to dominate the Xian faith.

Get over it, you are the one telling Ruby what she thinks ot feels. Why don't you present your ideas in refutation.

If youw ant a knock down drag out, I not only deconverted I went the other way completly.

Xians are :
-far from the treachings of Jesus
obeseesseed with power and contol
-mysoginsitic
-fanatic to the point that they can't tolerate opposing views.

If these observation of mine don't fit you , then fine don't wear them but most of the followers of christ have made a travesty of his message.

As in many occasion before, the lack of objectivity shown with members in this group is evident.

No your selfish little tantrum and demanding that everyone goosestep along with you is what i see. the church bauses alot of harm.


The lack of ability to READ this information is also evident.

Those who can't express themselves always resort to insults!


But, just for my sake and the record, I will offer a synopses.

This is paraphrasing (not what actually was said).

Ruby: I think Christians are crazy. They also involve themselves in worthless rituals, their beliefs are based on fear (not reason), they are sadists and delight in the idea that people will go to hell. They have been brainwashed, and are paranoid. They are immoral and the biggest backstabbing gossips. They spread false and malicious stories is rampant. They are abusers of every sort...including sexual.

Yeah so, that is the wat alot of Xians are, maybe you are lucky and have just never met those kind. There are plenty around.

And do you have any idea of how much domestic violence is approved of by the church and how matital rape is approved of?


They present no legitime arguments for their beliefs, and I characterize on of such (from Christians) to be the most ridiculuos I have ever heard. The Bible is full of factual contradictions, and most of the refutations by Christians are illogical.


This is all stuff I find to be true, maybe it just hurts your feelings that there are Xians who are full of crap!

Me: I state as a fact that you know very little of Christian dogma.

Yeah, and you cabs tate that the Catholic church never approved of slavery either.

You are apparently living is some pink cloud!


Ruby: I studied 13 years this stuff.

Me: Furthermore, you say a lot but not show very little evidence of intelectual work. In this subject you show that your decision are emotions based, that you are being intellectually lazy about it.

Yeah so what?

It just goes to show that you haven't read squat at how Ruby arrived where she is, you are the lazy presumtive twit!

What intelectual reasons do you have to believe that the bible is true.

What proof do you have that Ruby did not have to live with the abusive dogma, characteristic of Xiams.

Do you have any proof that Ruby didn't? Well then shut up!
[/b]

Ruby: You are insulting me, you are a bad person.
[/b]
What a crock! Where did Ruby say this , you are so full of it , just like most Xians!


Me: I'm making factual observations to you. If I'm wrong show me your work. You say Christians are crazy, illogical, with beliefs based on fear and that is your critizism of them. I chanllenge your judgements, and what you to show me the intellectual work that brings you to those conclusions.

i am making the factual observation that you are lazy and full of crap.
Thgis is the way most Xian behave, get over it.
Show me that you were here when Ruby gave her story, oh well that's why you say such stupid stuff.

Gee, is it enough for me to know that my mother in law beat my wife with her churches permission?

The Xian faith is full of crap, she doesn't have to prove it , we already know it.


Ruby: You are not my god, you are not my king. You can't make do anything.

Me: That's is not what I'm saying. If you call other people illogical, these people have the right to challenge you reasoning. Of course you don't have to answer any of it. But then, your statements become worthless. And it could be perceived as hypocrisy.

Yeah well you got a huge beam in your eye buddy, Ruby giving her story does not give you the right to judge her.

It does give me the right to say that you are .... a typical child of god. maybe you should open your heart to the fact that the church hurts people everyday.


Ruby: You are a villian, and others agree with me.


Others: Ruby is entitled to her opinion and she has the right to say whatever she wants about Christians. Besides, you are very ugly.


Me: I'm not arguing about her right to say those things (she has). I'm not even arguing about the right of her to villify me (she has).

I'M STATING THAT I HAVE THE RIGHT CHANLLENGE WHAT SHE SAYS AND TO ASK HER FOR THE INTELLECTUAL WORK BEHIND HERE STATEMENTS

She has her reason, no one has to justify them, are you going to sanctify all the evil done in churches everyday?
Why don't you present YOUR REASON'S and we can go over them instead.
Typical messianic paranoia, you stuck your foot in the crap, I wonder why people say you shoe stinks?


She has the right to not to answer me.

AND I HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL THAT HYPOCRISY

Not if you are a follower of jesus you don't , rather typical of christians throw out christ when ever it suits them.

'turn the other check'
[b}


And she has the right to villify all over again.

Nah, you are just thin skinned, if you can't play with the big dogs stay on the porch.

So , what pray tell, are your intellectual reasons for believing that the church is not the beast of the anti_christ?

 

[Ruby]

Spend any amount of time with religious people and you learn about it rather quickly.

I lived steeped in fear as a Christian. That's one reason I feel so free now. That's one reason I have made remarkable recovery in the past six months or so concerning Social phobia and anxiety, and have been completely freed of panic attacks.

I know a lot of Christians who live in such fear because they attribute so much power to "Satan" and "demons". Since "God" is bound by not infringing upon people's freewill............and sometimes not intervening to help...depending on what denomination you talk to.........then "Satan" is treated like he is more powerful than "God". Add to that the argument that "Satan's" power exists because "God" allows it...then it really gets even more insidious. You have Christians running about believing that demons are attached to everything, and that only ritual, magic-like incantations can get rid of them, and even then, they might come back.

Any sickness, mental or physical, might be blamed on demons. Unbelief is blamed on demons. Temptations are often blamed on demons. Some denominations accuse other denonimnations of being of the Devil, and full of demons. Children misbehaving might be blamed on demons. Nightmares, anger, depression, and even fear itself is attributed to demons in many cases.

Not all Christians believe such things, thankfully. I do have some dear friends who are Christians who laugh at that the above type of thinking. They are more liberal in their thinking compared to most Christians here in the bible belt.

 

[Christian]

Dacing David:

And you are the type of person who is defending Ruby. And this is the type of people who Ruby wants as friends.


You show exactly the phylosophy of hate you denounce.


You know what is funny (meaning ironic). That your heart is full of hatred and resentment and you don't see it.

Again I say, you have very little power in here, and the one you have have in insignifant.

I'm very glad that in the outside world you have to behave. And that moderation here also keeps you in check.


Ruby

You suggested I start this thread, you have yet to answer my questions and I feel you wont.

I stand by my assertions. And I stand by the view that I have the right to make them and to question you.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Christian:

Dacing David:

And you are the type of person who is defending Ruby. And this is the type of people who Ruby wants as friends.

You have no idea what type of people Ruby wants as friends and it is immaterial to this thread.

You show exactly the phylosophy of hate you denounce.

As do you.

You know what is funny (meaning ironic). That your heart is full of hatred and resentment and you don't see it.

Indeed, you don't seem to see it.

Again I say, you have very little power in here, and the one you have have in insignifant.

"Power"? The only power anyone has in here is the power of their arguments.

I'm very glad that in the outside world you have to behave. And that moderation here also keeps you in check.

I'm sure you are very much in favor of suppression and conformity.

You suggested I start this thread, you have yet to answer my questions and I feel you wont.

What question might that be?

I stand by my assertions. And I stand by the view that I have the right to make them and to question you.

You can ask any question you like. Isn't that a nice change from the dogma you normally inhabit?

 

[espritch]

Progress? There will always be progress. How can progress be avoided in chronological time?

There will always be change. Change and progress are not necessarily identical concepts. A new consensus as to the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin is change but it is not progress. The rejection of the institution of slavery is progress.

Civilization? Hard to imagine civilizations getting off the ground without religion.

It is entirely possible that religion played an important role in the development of civilization but this doesn’t mean it isn’t now acting as an impediment. A multi-stage rocket cannot attain orbit without a first stage. But if it doesn’t achieve separation from the first stage at some point, it will come crashing back down to earth.

Your rhetoric is certainly divisive and inflammatory. I know you would never do anything like make religion illegal, imprison religious, or worse kill religious types.

No. I’m a secular humanist, not a communist. I would never consider making any view illegal or imprisoning or killing anyone for holding a view. That is anathema to me. I do however reserve the right to challenge those view and to offer arguments against them. If you choose to label my arguments as divisive and inflammatory and summarily dismiss them, that is certainly your prerogative, but it isn’t a valid refutation of the points raised.

We have to be tolerant of each other, regardless of their beliefs. I don't fault science for nuclear bombs. Science is cool.

We are in complete agreement on this. I think tolerance is an excellent thing. Tolerance requires that I accept your right to hold a different view and to argue in favor of that view. It even requires that I be willing to listen to your arguments and give them fair consideration. It doesn’t require that I not challenge those view.

I also find science cool. The coolest thing about it is that it has no sacred cows. Even such fundamental theories as evolution, relativity, and quantum mechanic may legitimately be challenged provided the challenger presents sufficient evidence to support the challenge or an alternative theory that better matches the evidence available.

 

[DanishDynamite]

espritch:

I also find science cool. The coolest thing about it is that it has no sacred cows. Even such fundamental theories as evolution, relativity, and quantum mechanic may legitimately be challenged provided the challenger presents sufficient evidence to support the challenge or an alternative theory that better matches the evidence available.

Well said, espritch. Perhaps off-topic, but I wanted to congratulate you anyway.

 

[Dancing David]

Dacing David:

And you are the type of person who is defending Ruby. And this is the type of people who Ruby wants as friends.


I am defending Ruby, because I read the thread where she came to an intellectual descision despite what here emotions told her.
And also because while there are good christians they are in minority.


You show exactly the phylosophy of hate you denounce.

No I actualy follow a philosophy of compassion, but my personal beliefs cause me to point out that alot of christian churches abuse thier memebers and approve of that abuse.



You know what is funny (meaning ironic). That your heart is full of hatred and resentment and you don't see it.

You know what is ironic, you don't know anything about me, but you make statements like that. I am as aware of my interior state as I am sure you are.


Again I say, you have very little power in here, and the one you have have in insignifant.

Your the one on the power trip, I am judging your behavior, why don't you share your intellectual reasons for believing that all christian churches do good all the time.


I'm very glad that in the outside world you have to behave. And that moderation here also keeps you in check.

I am glad that reality keeps the power hungry Xians from taking over the world!

[/B]

Why isit Christian that if we see all the pain that churches cause , you tell us we are wrong.
I like the teachings of jesus, I wish more churches actualy followed them.

Why is Ruby wrong , or I for that matter, for feeling that there are many churches that do great evil?

 

[elliotfc]

Well, I would say that the state of being "unsaved" and destined "to burn in hell for all eternity" is a negative characteristic. Wouldn't you?

Of course it is, and nobody will be forced into a state of Hell.

Spend any amount of time with religious people and you learn about it rather quickly.

I think you're full of it, or yourself. I spend time with religious people constantly and I don't see sadism and fear. You see what you want to see, that's all you're saying. Believe what you want.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Like most words in the language, 'belief' has more than one possible meaning. The one you are using here is not the one most relevant to this discussion.

I see your point. There are different kinds of proof, knowledge, etc etc.

Yes. What is important is that I don't have any choice about believing this.

I'm sorry about that! Good thing you're not like a murderer or something. I'm being serious. If you can't control your beliefs (if they were abominable) I wouldn't want to be around you. If you can't control your beliefs (if they are relatively harmless, like yours), all I can say is sometimes you can in fact do things if you really put your mind to it.

This is in fact precisely the erroneous assumption Christians so often make that atheists reach their conclusions by the same methods they themselves use (i.e., trying to make the facts fit the pre-drawn conclusions). I do not doubt that for many atheists, this is in fact the case.

That was my point. All of this works both ways.

I think that regardless of perspective -- religious, political, emotional, philosophical, whatever -- a reasonable (even indispensible) assumption is that there is more commonality than variation between individuals with regard to certain fundamental qualities of experience.

I guess you're sort of right, and I guess that explains why most people are theistic, or religious.

I take excessive enthusiasm as evidence of doubt, no matter what direction it's pointing in.

It could be any of a number of things, including immaturity and spitefulness and sheer joy.

I wasn't actually making any broad claims about being able to do any more than that, but I do feel that my personal experience is a valid (if imperfect) model in trying to understand others.

As long as you admit that, no problem.

-Elliot

 

[Christian]

Dancing David wrote:
Why is Ruby wrong , or I for that matter, for feeling that there are many churches that do great evil?

I never said Ruby was wrong. I never said, she can't have her view.

She said I was insulting her for saying I didn't see the intellectual work behind her statements.

I stand by that assertion. It was not me who made I big deal about my comment. She was the one who suggested I start this thread and show her her comments about Christian.

I told her I would and she agreed to join. I would have dropped the whole thing if she had not said I was insulting her for making the comment that I felt she was being intellectually lazy about the specific topic on the other thread. And furthermore, I stated that I did not see the intellectual work behind her conversion.

I understand this is a very biased crowd. I don't mind. I don't mind at all. What I'm not going to do is back down from a position I believe to be legimite.

I get questioned about my position all the time and I get comments (like yours) all the time. I don't mind them. They don't bother me. But it gives me evidence that I'm not that off on what I see as very subjective thinking. Very little analysis involved.

 

[Christian]

And for the record. Most Christian are not sadists. And people who say most Christians are sadist and who say Christianity (and Christians) is bad for the world are demonstrating bigotry towards them.

But this is a new point that has come to light in this thread.

My point to Ruby is that if she is going to critize Christianity for intellectual reasons (they are illogical) then she must show the intellectual work behind that thinking. If not, it is just hypocrisy.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Christian:

Dancing David wrote:
Why is Ruby wrong , or I for that matter, for feeling that there are many churches that do great evil?

I never said Ruby was wrong. I never said, she can't have her view.

She said I was insulting her for saying I didn't see the intellectual work behind her statements.

I stand by that assertion. It was not me who made I big deal about my comment. She was the one who suggested I start this thread and show her her comments about Christian.

I told her I would and she agreed to join. I would have dropped the whole thing if she had not said I was insulting her for making the comment that I felt she was being intellectually lazy about the specific topic on the other thread. And furthermore, I stated that I did not see the intellectual work behind her conversion.

Of corse you insult someone when you call them lazy, intellectual or otherwise.

I understand this is a very biased crowd. I don't mind. I don't mind at all. What I'm not going to do is back down from a position I believe to be legimite.

An admirable view.

I get questioned about my position all the time and I get comments (like yours) all the time. I don't mind them. They don't bother me. But it gives me evidence that I'm not that off on what I see as very subjective thinking. Very little analysis involved.

Whether or not you get comments on your cult-membership and whether or not they are flattering has nothing to do with whether they are true or not.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Christian:

And for the record. Most Christian are not sadists. And people who say most Christians are sadist and who say Christianity (and Christians) is bad for the world are demonstrating bigotry towards them.

How do you know most Christians aren't sadists?Don't they believe in eternal torture and suffering for those who aren't members of their cult? Do they expound on this view? Often?

How do you know that they don't enjoy this warped idea?

But this is a new point that has come to light in this thread.

It is a very sad, sad old point.

My point to Ruby is that if she is going to critize Christianity for intellectual reasons (they are illogical)...

The Christianity cult is entirely illogical. Is that what you meant?

...then she must show the intellectual work behind that thinking. If not, it is just hypocrisy.

It is not hypocracy. It is just that Ruby needs some time to get her views sorted out.

If you want the intellectual working behind the self-contradictory and absurdity of your cult, just ask one of us regulars.

 

[Humphreys]

My point to Ruby is that if she is going to critize Christianity for intellectual reasons (they are illogical) then she must show the intellectual work behind that thinking. If not, it is just hypocrisy.

Do you believe based on intellectual reasons, Christian? If you cannot argue that you and/or other Christians do, then I think it's fair to say you are indeed illogical.

 

[Dancing David]

Dancing David wrote:
Why is Ruby wrong , or I for that matter, for feeling that there are many churches that do great evil?

I never said Ruby was wrong. I never said, she can't have her view.

She said I was insulting her for saying I didn't see the intellectual work behind her statements.

I stand by that assertion. It was not me who made I big deal about my comment. She was the one who suggested I start this thread and show her her comments about Christian.

I told her I would and she agreed to join. I would have dropped the whole thing if she had not said I was insulting her for making the comment that I felt she was being intellectually lazy about the specific topic on the other thread. And furthermore, I stated that I did not see the intellectual work behind her conversion.

I understand this is a very biased crowd. I don't mind. I don't mind at all. What I'm not going to do is back down from a position I believe to be legimite.

I get questioned about my position all the time and I get comments (like yours) all the time. I don't mind them. They don't bother me. But it gives me evidence that I'm not that off on what I see as very subjective thinking. Very little analysis involved.

I agree that I don't know the basis for why you feel that churches don't abuse thier memebers. I have lived it, I have seen it , and I get to hear about it all the time.

I ask again, if I see churches that say

-"Believe as I do or you will go to hell."
(A statement that is being repeatedly made to my son by the children of Xians)
-"Condemn a whole category of people because they are .... fill in the blank..."
(Fred Phelps being the most outrageous example)
-"If you leave the church(specific building) you are turning your back upon god."
(Happened to many people who look for a new church)
-"Being a human is a bad thing, especialy if you are a young woman."
(Why is it that the women are whores and the men are just studly)
-"Child abuse is the way to raise moral children."
(Spare the rod and spoil the child, the father is always right.)
-"The woman should alwys submit to the husband."
(Approving of marital rape.)

then i am seeing and hearing them say these things, these are all beielfs held by different churchs and they are the most agregious that I can think of, so IF I see the Churches causing Harm to People, why am I a bigot.

There is a lot of suffering created by the churches and the people who herd themselves into the churches. I do not see the amelioration of suffering in churches, I see the exaserbation of suffering.

I do not condemn christianity as a spiritual belief, I condemn the people who abuse it for thier own personal pwoer. I don't condemn the people who refuse to see the suffering that churches cause, but i do point it out.

And I think that you missed the hundreds of posts where Ruby worked through a very strong intellectual process to show her journey to where she is today.

You dear sir/madam are the intellectualy lazy one for merely champing at the bit and assuming that Ruby is a bigot she, as I, is discussing the behavior of real people in real churches.

You may be a very reasonable person who would condemn the harmful behavior of churches, but to say that Ruby is intellectualy lazy just says that you are ignorant of her process.

 

[Dancing David]

And for the record. Most Christian are not sadists. And people who say most Christians are sadist and who say Christianity (and Christians) is bad for the world are demonstrating bigotry towards them.

You are right, most people are very safe as individuals, it is when they get toether in groups that they behave more stupidly.

But this is a new point that has come to light in this thread.

Nah, it is not new at all, I have condemned most churches for a very long time now. Everytime some self righteous reverend goes and sexualy assaults thier charges, it just confirms my view that churches are the problem.


My point to Ruby is that if she is going to critize Christianity for intellectual reasons (they are illogical) then she must show the intellectual work behind that thinking. If not, it is just hypocrisy.

No , you are just demanding she do so, she went through her intellectual process, and if you don't like it then ... oh, well.

So do you deny all the evil that churches do, do you approve of the evil, or do you condemn it?

For example, the establishement of the Southern Babtist Convention to support slavery?