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A "Before" the Big Bang?

Which is not the same thing as "came from nothing." That one is your strawman, as we have seen many times. Don't be a coward and try to run from your record; it is too easily found.
And this has obviously become your strawman, because I see no point in arguing it now, do you? But then again, if someone wishes to argue that the Universe is expanding into nothing which, I can only assume is the same nothing -- hey that's weird? -- that existed prior to the Big Bang, what am I supposed to do? ... Pretend like it was nothing?

:dl:
 
And this has obviously become your strawman,
Well, no, actually. We can actually point to instances of your using it, attributing it to us, with no prior post of ours corresponding. It is, quite simply, your strawman.
because I see no point in arguing it now, do you?
Oh, please, then, say you will stop.
But then again, if someone wishes to argue that the Universe is expanding into nothing which, I can only assume is the same nothing -- hey that's weird? -- that existed prior to the Big Bang, what am I supposed to do?
For a start, try figuring out that "nothing" is not a thing. You are continuing to treat "nothing" like it was a dimensional space. You are quite wrong in this.
... Pretend like it was nothing?
You could...or you could, if you honestly found the topic as interesting as you say you do, ask for some sources where you might learn more about it.
 
For a start, try figuring out that "nothing" is not a thing. You are continuing to treat "nothing" like it was a dimensional space. You are quite wrong in this.
Do you think Tricky should retract what he said in his post then, that the Universe is expanding into nothing?
 
Do you think Tricky should retract what he said in his post then, that the Universe is expanding into nothing?
Not at all. He is quite correct; your failure to understand does not make you right.
 
For a start, try figuring out that "nothing" is not a thing. You are continuing to treat "nothing" like it was a dimensional space. You are quite wrong in this.
Read this, Iacchus. Try to understand it. Nothing is not a thing. It is not a thing that the universe expands into. It is not a thing that the universe comes from. It is not a space. It is not a point. It is not a time. It is nothing. It is No Thing.

While it is true that this is a difficult concept for many to comprehend, just like it is difficult to comprehend that infinity is not a very large number, it is one of those concepts that you must learn to deal with if you are ever to discuss the concept of the universe in any meaningful manner.

The world you live in is just a tiny little part of the universe. Do not expect that the concepts that you use within that tiny little speck to be applicable on a cosmic scale. This is why only very intelligent people like Hawking have any real understanding of it. I am not in their league, but I can grasp the basic outline. You should endeavor to do likewise, since you are never going to learn the math and physics required to have a deep understanding. Start with this: Infinity and Zero are not numbers. If you can grasp this, then maybe you'll be able to move on to more difficult concepts.

Belz said in the ID thread that it expands into itself. He is more correct than I. As it expands, existence expands. I see that by saying it expanded into "nothing" I fueled your fallacious concept that nothing is something. That was a mistake on my part. I should choose my words more carefully.
 
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Read this, Iacchus. Try to understand it. Nothing is not a thing. It is not a thing that the universe expands into. It is not a thing that the universe comes from. It is not a space. It is not a point. It is not a time. It is nothing. It is No Thing.

I know that Lennon and McCartney weren't renowned physicists, but according to them:

"Nothing is real" (Lennon / McCartney 1967)

Lennon J. & McCartney P. 1967, 'Strawberry Fields Forever' in Magical Mystery Tour, Capital Records, Los Angeles
 
Read this, Iacchus. Try to understand it. Nothing is not a thing. It is not a thing that the universe expands into. It is not a thing that the universe comes from. It is not a space. It is not a point. It is not a time. It is nothing. It is No Thing.
Never said it was. ;)

While it is true that this is a difficult concept for many to comprehend, just like it is difficult to comprehend that infinity is not a very large number, it is one of those concepts that you must learn to deal with if you are ever to discuss the concept of the universe in any meaningful manner.
I understand it full well. It is beyond the reach of that which is reachable, and beyond that, and beyond that, and beyond that ...

The world you live in is just a tiny little part of the universe. Do not expect that the concepts that you use within that tiny little speck to be applicable on a cosmic scale.
Oh really? Then why try to explain that it all began with the Big Bang?

This is why only very intelligent people like Hawking have any real understanding of it.
Bully! I also understand that he claims to be a Pantheist.

I am not in their league, but I can grasp the basic outline.
Which is?

You should endeavor to do likewise, since you are never going to learn the math and physics required to have a deep understanding.
Well, you know what they say? ... Never say never. ;)

Start with this: Infinity and Zero are not numbers. If you can grasp this, then maybe you'll be able to move on to more difficult concepts.
Let's see, Zero can be used as point of reference or, departure, while infinity becomes the continuum, extending out past your point of departure. You know, like 0 + 1 = 1, 1 + 1 = 2, 2 + 1 = 3, so on and so forth ... on out to, "infinity."

Belz said in the ID thread that it expands into itself. He is more correct than I. As it expands, existence expands. I see that by saying it expanded into "nothing" I fueled your fallacious concept that nothing is something.
Yes, either that or, this is what you believed along. Could it be that you don't wish to look like the baffoon?

That was a mistake on my part. I should choose my words more carefully.
Yes, you should choose your arguments more carefully.
 
Hand Me a Balloon ...

So, let's get this straight here, everything exists on the inside and there's nothing on the outside but, it continues to expand? Okay Bozo, let's try an experiment ... Can you hand me a balloon?

:dl:
 
What, No Materialism?

But then again folks, if there is no outside but, only the inside, aren't we in fact refuting materialism? :jaw-dropp
 
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To answer the question. Before the big bang the FSM created god.
Oh, what balls he has!

Iacchus, Your balloon analogy has convinced me that conventional science is totally wrong. Oh wait a minute a balloon has something on the outside. Never mind you were so close.
Please explain.
 
Please explain.
Well there I was happy in my understanding of the world when suddenly reading your post I realised that my life was sham, I didn’t know what was true and what was false. I was in a quandary. Was life worth living? Where am I going? Where have I been? Then a nanosecond later normality restored. I realised you haven’t a clue.
 
Hey, maybe I am ignorant but, have you ever tried blowing hot air into a balloon.
OK, let's look at the balloon analogy.

Take a balloon, blow it up a little and draw some dots on it on it. Consider only the surface of the balloon, not what is inside or outside; this gives us a closed two-dimensional "universe." Now blow some more air into the balloon. The dots will get further apart, as the balloon expands, but the two-dimensional surface we are considering hasn't expanded into any two-dimensional surface around it: it's just got bigger.
 
You said there was nothing there. So, how is it possible for space to expand into nothing?
Try thinking it this way. What's out there stopping the universe from expanding?
Nothing? *RIMSHOT* :D


What about my earlier post:
This got me to thinkg about virtual particles that appear and cancel eachother in a void. Would those appear in Iacchus' example without the cardboard box? How would their relative motion relate to time, would time exist if there were virtual particles or do we need actual particles for time?
 
Never said it was.
Yes you have, many times. I've just pointed them out to you.

I understand it full well. It is beyond the reach of that which is reachable, and beyond that, and beyond that, and beyond that ...
Nope. I see you still don't understand. You are still speaking of it as if it it were a thing.

Oh really? Then why try to explain that it all began with the Big Bang?
No honest person claims to know "why" or even if there is a "why". You don't know, but you claim to. That is one reason you are not in that catagory.

Bully! I also understand that he claims to be a Pantheist.
Which is to say that he doesn't believe in a personal god or an intervening god or possibly even a conscious god. You might want to be careful who you get into bed with.

Well, you know what they say? ... Never say never.
True. You might make a complete reversal of your previous philosophy and decide to back up your claims with evidence. I'm not holding my breath.

Let's see, Zero can be used as point of reference or, departure, while infinity becomes the continuum, extending out past your point of departure. You know, like 0 + 1 = 1, 1 + 1 = 2, 2 + 1 = 3, so on and so forth ... on out to, "infinity."
LOL. What happens when you add zero to one? What if you add zero to one a hundred times? A million? Nothing happens. You still have one. So you are not doing math. You are doing nothing.

What happens if you multiply by zero? lets say zero times 2. If you multiply one by two, you take get a single two. If you multiply four times two, you get eight twos. But if you multiply nothing by two, you have done nothing. You have not even done any math. If you take a large complex equation and multiply it by zero, you are saying essentially, "take this large equation and do nothing with it".

Zero is not a number, Iacchus. Here's a test. Try taking the reciprocal. You can do that with any real number.

And when you say "out to infinity", you are speaking of it as if it were a number. You can't count to infinity, Iacchus.

Yes, either that or, this is what you believed along. Could it be that you don't wish to look like the baffoon?
It's the same thing, Iacchus. Saying it doesn't expand into anything is exactly the same as saying it expands into nothing. It's just confusing to little minds like yours, so I am simply saying Belz phrased it better than I. But I'm not worried about looking like a baffoon. I'm not sure what a baffoon is.

Yes, you should choose your arguments more carefully.
I admit I'm not the world's best teacher. As my exchanges with you illustrate, I would have great difficulty being patient with the slow students. Though in defense of most of them, they don't usually argue that they know something when they don't. Only a few very slow people are so slow that they don't even know they are slow.
 
OK, let's look at the balloon analogy.

Take a balloon, blow it up a little and draw some dots on it on it. Consider only the surface of the balloon, not what is inside or outside; this gives us a closed two-dimensional "universe." Now blow some more air into the balloon. The dots will get further apart, as the balloon expands, but the two-dimensional surface we are considering hasn't expanded into any two-dimensional surface around it: it's just got bigger.
Yes, and if you were living inside the balloon, and had only two brain cells, this is all you would ever know, the inside of the balloon. Hey, ever see the movie, The Truman Show? :D
 
If you take a large complex equation and multiply it by zero, you are saying essentially, "take this large equation and do nothing with it".

I was going to reply with 0 * x = 0. So when you take a complex equation and multiply it with 0 you are actually removing it. (That would be doing something to it though not with it?)

But after I read that sentence couple of times I'm not sure exactly what you mean by it.

Could you explain a bit deeper why 0 can't be considered a number? I've allways considered it as number you can't divide with. I've been taught it belongs to the set of real numbers like any other number. And it is well defined so you can use it like any other number.
0 * x = 0
0 + x = x
x / 0 = undefined

I understand you are not denying the usefull concept of zero though.
 

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