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A bad way to address underperforming students?

I don't think this addresses the root of the problem. Instead of cutting back on science education, wouldn't it be more beneficial to address whatever factors are potentially reducing the number of non-white students in the science labs?

I think you're misunderstanding the proposal.

They're not concerned about too few non-white students in the science labs. They're concerned about poor performance by non-white students across the board, which will require major overhaul to address.

Unfortunately, a major overhaul takes money and resources to carry out, money and resources that need to come from somewhere. They could just as easily find the money by cutting new book purchases from the library or eliminating the computer technology department -- what they can't do is simply conjure the resources out of thin air.

Given that something must be cut to address the racial gap, what do you propose instead of cutting lab science?

(I should point out that I'm just as horrified as you at the idea of cutting lab science out of the curriculum. But I bet there are no "easy" cuts left.)
 
I agree. I wouldn't want my child going to that school if this move were to take place.

They are taking away science labs because it is making whites smarter than blacks? Preposterous. What do they hope to accomplish? Bring the smart whites down to the level of the dumb blacks? What about the smart blacks? They will suffer also.

The whole school performance will go down because of it. Why stop there? Why not just get rid of all curriculum and have the kids all sit around in a circle all day talking about their feelings? That would put an end to the gap for sure.

ETA: "Paul Gibson, an alternate parent representative on the School Governance Council, said that information presented at council meetings suggests that the science labs were largely classes for white students. He said the decision to consider cutting the labs in order to redirect resources to underperforming students was virtually unanimous."

What information would suggest that the labs are for whites? There is a show on TV that I sometimes watch, where lab experiments are done by a black MC scientist, and he even has a DJ that reads off the safety rules and equipment requirements in between his scratches. If labs were just for whites, you wouldn't see something like this on TV.
 
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They are taking away science labs because it is making whites smarter than blacks?

Again, you are misunderstanding. They are taking away science labs because they are expensive and serve only a small segment of the high school, and they have other more pressing things to spend that money on that would be of much broader impact.
 
Sounds like this is one of many proposals to help with the funding problem. The story doesn't tell us what the other proposals are and what combination of proposals may need to be implemented to bridge the gap.

This one sure sounds like a very bad idea. It may be on the list simply to give the school board something to get behind and unanimously vote against. This is a tactic local community groups regularly use in County Commissioner's meetings I attend here in NC.
 
I don't understand the whole grading scale system in the United States. I teach teachers to pass the teaching certification exams and one of the things that the Constructivist approach stresses is that teachers are not teaching, rather students are learning. Assessment is not supposed to be used for grading, only for giving the students feedback on their performance. The idea that a student must master each task totally ignores the fact of free will. Some kids are just not interested and it is fine. They won't be the kids that go into science or math. Some kids don't like reading and it's fine. They won't be the ones who go on to college.

I don't understand this streamed form of education. I finally stood up for my son who is an avid reader but thinks school is boring and a waste of time. I told the school they were lying when they told him that his performance in school would make it hard for him to get a job. That because he didn't like doing homework he'd fail in college and at work. Total ********. You don't do homework at every job, teachers do homework at their job. However there are plenty of other jobs that don't require this sort of discipline.

I am doing an experiment now with my youngest where I've pulled him out of school and I'm going to focus his education on what he enjoys and does well on. Of course we'll get to the basics but I want to see what happens.

Elementary and Secondary school is not the benchmark for life achievement. It really has absolutely nothing to do with real education to me.
 
I don't understand the whole grading scale system in the United States.

Is this relevant?

I teach teachers to pass the teaching certification exams and one of the things that the Constructivist approach stresses is that teachers are not teaching, rather students are learning.

Yes, well, that's one of the problems with the Constructivist approach. Unfortunately, sometimes the teacher NEEDS to teach, because left to their own devices, the children will not be able to learn. No amount of reasoning from first principles will tell you that there are three branches of government or that the capital of Idaho is Boise; those are simply facts that need to be memorized as a basis for future work (which can be more self-generated once the students have mastered the basics).

Assessment is not supposed to be used for grading, only for giving the students feedback on their performance.

I see, and what are you supposed to use for grading?

Because, unfortunately, sometimes you need to evaluate the kids. If a student wants to get a job as a computer programmer, the employer needs to know which of the twenty (or two hundred) applicants actually know how to program. If Whatsamattta U. only has forty slots for biology students, it needs to make sure that the students it accepts actually know high school biology and won't need two years of remediation.

And everyone needs to know that the student has a work ethic, even if all they're doing is showing up on time to flip burgers.
 
This last part of this paper offers a critique of the Constructionist approach by one of the founders of modern cognitive psychology, Herbert Simon. http://act-r.psy.cmu.edu/papers/misapplied.html
"To argue for radical constructivism seems to us to engender deep contradictions. Radical constructivists cannot argue for any particular agenda if they deny a consensus as to values. The very act of arguing for a position is to engage in a value-loaded instructional behavior. It would seem that radical constructivists should present us with data about the consequences of various educational alternatives and allow us to construct our own interpretations. (But data beyond anecdotes are rare in such constructivist writings.)

It is not clear how many of those who describe themselves as constructivists really subscribe to an outright rejection of evaluation and instruction. A less radical contructivism may contain no contradictions and may bear some truth. However, to repeat our conclusion with respect to situated learning, such a moderate constructivism contains little that is new and ignores a lot that is already known."
 
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Wait I'm not saying they should do away with the grading system. What I mean is that there are different kinds of learners.

Example My oldest son has never had a problem in school. He excelled in every single class and with very little effort he gets As. He's got a clear idea of what he wants in life, he's 16 now and wants to be an architect and goes to LaGuardia High School (the fame school). He's driven and does well. He however hates to read and never does. He ********s his way through the English classes.

My second son hates school. He's bored throughout it. He on the otherhand loves to read. He'll sit in school and read and read and read. He also is interested in swimming and art. He's always gotten As in art and Spanish. He picks up languages easily and doesn't study but nearly scores perfect scores on each of his Spanish tests. He's bored in school and wants adventure. He'd like to travel and do rock climbing, etc. He's also quite the philosopher and I think will do well in college. I hated school and excelled in college because I was able to learn what I wanted.

I fail to see how a mainstreamed form of education is going to address the very different needs and interests of those two students. My second son doesn't take notes because he's an auditory and kinesthetic learner. My older son needs to take notes to study. Yet the school grades them on their "portfolios and note taking" My second son failed every semester (or to me he failed he got a 60 average) but they passed him through every year. Why? Because on the standardized tests my son is in the 97th percentile. He rocks the exams. So the school passes him. Yet they berate him throughout the year for not doing it "their way"

I have no problem with standardized testing. I do have a problem with the standardized testing being used to "grade" students. To me as you say, the employer will test students to see if they actually know how to program. This sets a standard that if a student wants that job they will need to pass. The idea that we'll assess failure below that mark and slap a grade on it is weird to me. Maybe if they just used pass fail it could change the perspective. Here in NY they have done with grades which I think is a good idea.

Please explain to me how letter grades make any sense in assessment.
 
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Wait I'm not saying they should do away with the grading system. What I mean is that there are different kinds of learners.

There are indeed. And there are certainly good and bad ways to evaluate students; I fought my way through high school arguing at every turn that the requirement to turn in a "rough draft" of papers was silly. (I wrote all my papers on a word processor -- my father was a very early adopter of technology -- so I would be continually revising and rewording sections and never had a paper at any stage that was complete enough to call a "draft" until it was nearly finalized and no longer "rough.") I also fought my way through math class arguing that I shouldn't have to do all the odd-numbered problems from 1 to 47 because I had picked up the material in lecture and didn't need the practice. Some teachers agreed, others didn't.

But I think the baby-to-bathwater ratio of your proposal is a bit high.


Example My oldest son has never had a problem in school. He excelled in every single class and with very little effort he gets As. He's got a clear idea of what he wants in life, he's 16 now and wants to be an architect and goes to LaGuardia High School (the fame school). He's driven and does well. He however hates to read and never does. He ********s his way through the English classes.

My second son hates school. He's bored throughout it. He on the otherhand loves to read. He'll sit in school and read and read and read. He also is interested in swimming and art. He's always gotten As in art and Spanish. He picks up languages easily and doesn't study but nearly scores perfect scores on each of his Spanish tests. He's bored in school and wants adventure. He'd like to travel and do rock climbing, etc. He's also quite the philosopher and I think will do well in college. I hated school and excelled in college because I was able to learn what I wanted.

I fail to see how a mainstreamed form of education is going to address the very different needs and interests of those two students.

You're conflating two very different things; what a student needs is usually exactly the opposite of what interests that student, precisely because students will learn (by themselves) what interests them. Your first son may not like reading and writing, but he'll be a piss-poor architect if he doesn't master them. Which is why core curricula exist at every level; if he can't fight his way through high school English class, that doesn't bode well for his ability to pass college level freshman comp, which in turn doesn't bode well for his ability to write a persuasive description of how the building he wants to design/build would work or understand the journal article about the revolutionary new uses for Cheez-its as building insulation.

Let alone write that article.


I have no problem with standardized testing. I do have a problem with the standardized testing being used to "grade" students. To me as you say, the employer will test students to see if they actually know how to program. This sets a standard that if a student wants that job they will need to pass. The idea that we'll assess failure below that mark and slap a grade on it is weird to me. Maybe if they just used pass fail it could change the perspective.

Actually, that would be much worse from the employer's perspective. They don't just want someone who can program. They want someone who can program well. Out of the twenty or so applicants, they want the single best one, not any of the top fifteen chosen at random.

Please explain to me how letter grades make any sense in assessment.

Because I want to know how good this person is. I have, for example, two scholarships at my disposal this year, scholarships that will pay for a student to help me with my research. I want to pick the best of the candidates. I want a student who got top marks in her relevant classes, a student who brings knowledge and creativity and a strong work ethic into the group. I want a student who will be able not only to participate in the research, but who will be able to help train the next generation a year or so from now (when I have another scholarship or two to give away). I don't want a C student, I want an A student.
 
Again, you are misunderstanding. They are taking away science labs because they are expensive and serve only a small segment of the high school, and they have other more pressing things to spend that money on that would be of much broader impact.

Just wanted to say that I agree with that.

What's disappointing is that there are comments on that news article that just sound... well..
This is social engineering and more racial paternalism.
...racist. I mean, the thinking there is that the minorities perform worse because they are simply inferior.
 
There are indeed. And there are certainly good and bad ways to evaluate students; I fought my way through high school arguing at every turn that the requirement to turn in a "rough draft" of papers was silly. (I wrote all my papers on a word processor -- my father was a very early adopter of technology -- so I would be continually revising and rewording sections and never had a paper at any stage that was complete enough to call a "draft" until it was nearly finalized and no longer "rough.") I also fought my way through math class arguing that I shouldn't have to do all the odd-numbered problems from 1 to 47 because I had picked up the material in lecture and didn't need the practice. Some teachers agreed, others didn't.

But I think the baby-to-bathwater ratio of your proposal is a bit high.




You're conflating two very different things; what a student needs is usually exactly the opposite of what interests that student, precisely because students will learn (by themselves) what interests them. Your first son may not like reading and writing, but he'll be a piss-poor architect if he doesn't master them. Which is why core curricula exist at every level; if he can't fight his way through high school English class, that doesn't bode well for his ability to pass college level freshman comp, which in turn doesn't bode well for his ability to write a persuasive description of how the building he wants to design/build would work or understand the journal article about the revolutionary new uses for Cheez-its as building insulation.

Unfortunately that's total ********. My son gets As on all his papers. I caught him once using Cliff notes to read up and he wrote a paper in 20 minutes and got a 98 percent on it. Your condemnation of the ethical issue with this (which I agree with) is based on a flawed premise. That is that teachers can always tell who is doing the real work. Ask any student on this thread if they've ever ********ted their way through an assignment and received high marks and I would wager almost everyone has done so. This stems from the patronizing idea that educators promote that there is some sort of "high art" aspect to standardized education and that it's about learning to learn. In reality it isn't. It's about learning how to beat the system.

I've watched scholarships be handed to students that had straight As on their report card in high school because they cheated their way through it. And before you go on to say they will eventually get busted, not really. Many academic institutions have turned into business ventures rather than halls of learning. The president of my high school class freely admitting to cheating on every exam she could in order to keep her 4.0 and get scholarships. It's also classist to make assessments about high school performance in order to give out scholarships because many poor families keep their kids at home to baby sit siblings or need them to work after school in order to put food on the table. The fact that they have straight Bs has nothing to do with their capabilities in real life.

Pretending that education is some sort of sophisticated ideal is just not facing the fact that the majority of people who have college degrees these days just slid through the school and have a diploma to show for it. It has nothing to do with really learning.

My son however who isn't doing well in the system is learning on his own and with the guidance of school. But the school is not directing the learning, only the system.



Let alone write that article.




Actually, that would be much worse from the employer's perspective. They don't just want someone who can program. They want someone who can program well. Out of the twenty or so applicants, they want the single best one, not any of the top fifteen chosen at random.



Because I want to know how good this person is. I have, for example, two scholarships at my disposal this year, scholarships that will pay for a student to help me with my research. I want to pick the best of the candidates. I want a student who got top marks in her relevant classes, a student who brings knowledge and creativity and a strong work ethic into the group. I want a student who will be able not only to participate in the research, but who will be able to help train the next generation a year or so from now (when I have another scholarship or two to give away). I don't want a C student, I want an A student.



Ok then you are approaching learning as if it is your requirement. True learning has nothing to do with grades or whatnot. It also has nothing to do with degrees or these kinds of social constructs. People who educate themselves can be the best candidate. You are setting up a system for the basis of juding merit for those who wish to remain in the system through their life. But not all people want to do that. It is also increasingly changing in the world where many people are choosing to freelance in life rather than commit to one agency. So as it continues on who is to say this won't expand out into the world.

It is the world view of an educator and unfortuantely it is very narrow minded. And since educators generally are slaves to the system anyway, it becomes impossible after a while to actually think outside the box and to understand that your path to success is not the only one. The things you have done in your journey worked for you but you can't condemn others for failing to be interested or respect your chosen path.

There are many different intelligences, styles of learning and potential jobs and careers and paths that have absolutely nothing to do with grades and scholarships.
 
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... They are taking away science labs because they are expensive and serve only a small segment of the high school, and they have other more pressing things to spend that money on that would be of much broader impact.
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Like extracurricular sports, school plays and prom night? These also serve only small segments of the high school student body -- jocks, emos and the beauty queens/kings respectively. Why pick only on the geeks?
 
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Like extracurricular sports, school plays and prom night? These also serve only small segments of the high school student body -- jocks, emos and the beauty queens/kings respectively. Why pick only on the geeks?

How much money do the extracurricular sports, school plays, and prom night bring in? How much money do the science labs bring in?
 
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Like extracurricular sports, school plays and prom night? These also serve only small segments of the high school student body -- jocks, emos and the beauty queens/kings respectively. Why pick only on the geeks?

Because you'd be surprised how little school plays and prom night actually cost (and much of the cost gets picked up by user fees, such as tickets to prom.) I doubt that cutting the prom would save as much money as firing a single science teacher would.

Now, you're certainly right that sports can be a major cost sink -- especially the equipment-intensive sports like football. On the other hand, football is usually tremendously popular with the community, which makes it politically difficult to cut, especially for an elected body like the school board. Smaller sports, though, are usually fairly early casualties of budget crunches; I'd be surprised to learn that there was still a volleyball team (despite the fact that volleyball costs almost nothing to run).
 
There are many different intelligences, styles of learning and potential jobs and careers and paths that have absolutely nothing to do with grades and scholarships.

That's right. And unfortunately, if you don't master grades and scholarships, you won't be able to participate in any of those potential jobs and careers and paths. Because there are too many people who want to participate, and if you're too much of a prima donna to show you can play nicely within the rules of the academy, you're probably too much of a prima donna to play nice within the rules of my job site.

Congratulations. You just talked yourself out of a potential job.
 
There is also the overhead to consider. How much does it cost to maintain a baseball diamond, a basketball court, a football field, a production stage, an assembly hall and a swimming pool? How much to light and/or heat these facilities each time they're used outside of regular school hours?

Then compare those overhead costs to maintaining a single science classroom that is likely to be used only during regular school hours.

How about pay for a coach for each sport? If they're regular teachers, then do they get paid overtime during sporting events? Compare that to how much overtime would have to be paid to a laboratory science teacher.

But why fight the dumbing-down of American education? It ain't done nobudy no hert as fer as spelin and gramer is consernd.
 
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There is also the overhead to consider. How much does it cost to maintain a baseball diamond, a basketball court, a football field, a production stage, an assembly hall and a swimming pool? How much to light and/or heat these facilities each time they're used outside of regular school hours?
Yep. Now how much money do they bring in?

Then compare those overhead costs to maintaining a single science classroom that is likely to be used only during regular school hours.
Yep. Now how much money does the science classroom bring in?

How about pay for a coach for each sport? If they're regular teachers, then do they get paid overtime during sporting events? Compare that to how much overtime would have to be paid to a laboratory science teacher.
Yep. Now how much money do they bring in?

But why fight the dumbing-down of American education? It ain't done nobudy no hert as fer as spelin and gramer is consernd.

Get as snarky as you like, you're still making an argument from ignorance until you find out how much money the programs bring in.
 
So "Bringing Money In" is more important to a high school than "Education"?

Are we turning our high schools into workhouses?
 

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