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Merged 9th Circuit Strikes Down "May Issue" Concealed carry In California

WildCat

NWO Master Conspirator
Joined
Mar 23, 2003
Messages
59,856
So California had a "may ssue" concealed carry licensing system, in which it was left up to the opinion of the local sheriff whether or not the license was issued. San Diego County, for all intents and purposes, denied this right to every applicant - unless, of course, you had the appropriate political connections. The 9th Circuit just tossed that law out the window, ruling that self defense outside the home was a core right guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment's right to bear arms.

The ruling.

Some relevant passages:
Our conclusion that the right to bear arms includes the right to carry an
operable firearm outside the home for the lawful purpose of self-defense is perhaps unsurprising—other circuits faced with this question have expressly held, or at the very least have assumed, that this is so.

Put simply, a law that destroys (rather than merely burdens) a right central to the Second Amendment must be struck down.


We thus disagree with those courts—including the district court in this
case—that have taken the view that it is not necessary (and, thus, necessary not) to decide whether carrying a gun in public for the lawful purpose of self-defense is a constitutionally protected activity. See, e.g., Drake, 724 F.3d at 431; Woollard, 712 F.3d at 876; Kachalsky, 701 F.3d at 89; cf. Masciandaro, 638 F.3d at 475.


Understanding the scope of the right is not just necessary, it is key to our analysis. For if self-defense outside the home is part of the core right to “bear arms” and the California regulatory scheme prohibits the exercise of that right, no amount of interest-balancing under a heightened form of means-ends scrutiny can justify San Diego County’s policy.

And the 8th criticized recent 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Circuit Court decisions upholding "may issue":
Our reading of the Second Amendment is akin to the
Seventh Circuit’s interpretation in Moore, 702 F.3d at 936–42,20 and at odds with
the approach of the Second, Third, and Fourth Circuits in Drake, 724 F.3d at
431–35, Woollard, 712 F.3d at 876, and Kachalsky, 701 F.3d at 89, 97–99.
a
We are unpersuaded by the decisions of the Second, Third, and Fourth
Circuits for several reasons. First, contrary to the approach in Heller, all three
courts declined to undertake a complete historical analysis of the scope and nature
of the Second Amendment right outside the home. Compare Heller, 554 U.S. at
605 (examining the post-ratification interpretations of the Second Amendment
because “the public understanding of a legal text in the period after its enactment
or ratification” is “a critical tool of constitutional interpretation” (emphasis
omitted)), with Drake, 724 F.3d at 431 (noting that the court was “not inclined to
address [text, history, tradition and precedent] by engaging in a round of fullblown
historical analysis” and relying on the Second Circuit’s conclusion that
“[h]istory and tradition do not speak with one voice” (quoting Kachalsky, 701 F.3dat 91)); Woollard, 712 F.3d at 874–76 (declining to “impart a definitive ruling”
regarding the scope of the Second Amendment right), and Kachalsky, 701 F.
3d at 91 (refusing to look at “highly ambiguous history and tradition to determine the
meaning of the Amendment”). As a result, they misapprehend both the nature of
the Second Amendment right and the implications of state laws that prevent the
vast majority of responsible, law-abiding citizens from carrying in public for
lawful self-defense purposes.

For example, in Kachalsky, the Second Circuit’s perfunctory glance at the
plaintiffs’ historical argument misunderstood the historical consensus regarding the
right to bear arms outside the home. Relying on three cases, the court concluded
that “history and tradition [did] not speak with one voice” regarding the ability to
restrict public carry because at least three states “read restrictions on the public
carrying of weapons as entirely consistent with constitutional protections.”
Kachalsky, 701 F.3d at 90–91 (citing Fife v. State, 31 Ark. 455 (1876), English, 35
Tex. at 473, and Andrews v. State, 50 Tenn. 165 (1871)). But in its brief historical
analysis, the court missed a critical factor: the cases it cites in favor of broad public
carry restrictions adhere to a view of the Second Amendment that is and always
has been incorrect. Cf. Moore, 702 F.3d at 941 (referencing “disagreement . . .
with some of the historical analysis in [Kachalsky because] we regard the historical
65 issues as settled in Heller”). All three cases interpret the Second Amendment as a
militia-based (rather than a self-defense-centered) right; they uphold regulations on
carrying pistols in public because pistols are not the type of weapons that would be
used by militia men. See Fife, 31 Ark. at 461 (upholding a prohibition against
carrying pistols in public because such weapons are “used in private quarrels and
brawls” and are not “effective as a weapon of war, and useful and necessary for
‘the common defense’”); English, 35 Tex. at 475 (“[W]e shall be led to the
conclusion that the [Second Amendment] protects only the right to ‘keep’ such
‘arms’ as are used for purposes of war, in distinction from those which are
employed in quarrels and broils, and fights between maddened individuals . . . .”);
Andrews, 50 Tenn. at 186–87 (affirming the constitutionality of a law regulating
public carry of certain weapons which were not the “usual equipment of the
soldier” but remanding for consideration of whether a revolver was the “character
of weapon” used in warfare).

Because the Second Amendment has always been an individual right to
defend oneself, cases that—like these—uphold gun regulations because they do not offend the militia-based nature of the right are inapposite and should not factor into
a historical analysis of the right’s scope. See, e.g., Heller, 554 U.S. at 605. And
with these cases off the table, the remaining cases speak with one voice: states may
not destroy the right to bear arms in public under the guise of regulating it. See,
e.g., Kachalsky, 701 F.3d at 90 (recognizing that some state courts “offered
interpretations of the Second Amendment” consistent with the plaintiffs’ position
that “though a state may regulate open or concealed carrying of handguns, it cannot
ban both”); see also Drake, 724 F.3d at 449 (Hardiman, J., dissenting) (noting that
the “crux of the[] historical precedents[] endorsed by the Supreme Court, is that a
prohibition against both open and concealed carry without a permit is different in
kind, not merely in degree, from a prohibition covering only one type of carry”).
In light of Heller, the Second Circuit erred in outright rejecting history and tradition as unhelpful and ambiguous, and the Third and Fourth Circuits erred in
following suit.

A great victory for civil rights in California, now with the circuit split (7th and 9th cs. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th) clarification by the SCOTUS looks unavoidable, and I'm betting they rule consistent with Heller and the plain meaning of the 2nd Amendment.
 
But before the SCOTUS hears it, the loser has to appeal it.
 
Good ol' 9th circuit. They read past "keep" all the way to the next phrase "and bear".

Next test, "Open Carry Restrictions" which just lately took effect. Though I haven't heard about any cases in the works.
 
Good ol' 9th circuit. They read past "keep" all the way to the next phrase "and bear".

Next test, "Open Carry Restrictions" which just lately took effect. Though I haven't heard about any cases in the works.
The 7th Circuit ruled, and the 9th cited it in this opinion, that you have to allow either open carry or concealed, either one satisfies the right to bear arms.

I like how 13 pages was devoted to calling out the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th circuits on their bizarre legal reasoning and using rational basis but pretending it was intermediate scrutiny.
 
Deleted Post, , my fat fingers hit some keyboard short cut. Prbaly Windows/t?
 
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The gun board 'experts' are saying that because the three justices did such a good job of looking into precedents, it's not likely to be accepted by either 9th En Banc, nor the SCOTUS.

Plus in another case decided today, the L.A. Sheriff's Dept has to publish their regs re: CCW. And also be a prime regulator, it's OK to go around the local PD and direct to the LASD. But that one is only local and is being overshadowed by the OP case.

The OP case will be binding on the whole 9th Circuit area- Ca, Wa, Or, Hi, Nv, all the islands.....
 
I thought the dissenting opinion (by Justice Thomas) was very persuasive.
 
Another case of reality not getting into the head of gun nuts.

No, 'they're' not coming for your guns. 'They're' actually making things easier. Its as plain as day!
 
Another case of reality not getting into the head of gun nuts.

No, 'they're' not coming for your guns. 'They're' actually making things easier. Its as plain as day!

"Put simply, a law that destroys (rather than merely burdens) a right central to the Second Amendment must be struck down."
 
Ninth Circuit strikes down California concealed carry "may-issue" license policy.

California must allow law-abiding citizens to carry concealed firearms in public, a federal appeals court ruled Thursday, striking down the core of the state's permit system for handguns.

In a 2-1 decision, the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco said San Diego County violates the Constitution's Second Amendment by requiring residents to show "good cause" - and not merely the desire to protect themselves - to obtain a concealed-weapons permit.


http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Court-strikes-California-law-restricting-5232386.php

This is something that's been in the works for awhile now, post Heller and Mcdonald.

I'm sure that it will end up in front of the SC, but California and the other 7 states clinging to "may-issue" or "no-issue" licensing schemes are in for an interesting ride.

The existing California law has been successfully challenged in certain counties (in general, all Concealed Carry permits are issued at the county level) with the result that the issuing agency goes to "shall-issue" in everything but name, but the urban counties are just digging in and refusing to cooperate to the point that in S.F. county it's extremely difficult to obtain just the application for the license (a violation of state law in itself) unless the applicant is known to the agency before the request is made and the OK has already been given to supply the application to the individual in question.

Another road block that S.F. and some other agencies use is that they have only one point of contact for the application and vetting process, and that individual is either unavailable or otherwise occupied unless the individual applicant has already been Ok'ed by either agency administration or other political authorities - depending on the jurisdiction, the guy they don't know that walks in off the street requesting a CCP might find it impossible to make contact with that appropriate officer for up to a year before they can finally meet.

One factor that has contributed to the success of earlier civil actions against individual counties is that during the discovery phase, it's been found that some agencies that refuse to issue carry permits do in fact issue permits to political supporters, wealthy locals, etc. who in fact note in their application that the good cause purpose of the permit is for "self-defense," and these same agencies reject self-defense as good cause for other applicants.

It also helps that when you have two plantiff's in a case and one is a lesbian who has been the victim of a hate crime that also happens to be a former LEO and a certified firearms instructor and the other a retired LEO who simply moved from one county to the next, and neither was issued a carry permit by the agency they successfully filed action against... no political connections and neither had donated money to the Sheriff's re-election campaign, when that turned out that in cross-checking of successful applicants shows that contributing to the Sheriff's war chest was a prerequisite for permit issuance...

I'll be watching for future developments.
 
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Wildcat beat me to it:

California must allow law-abiding citizens to carry concealed firearms in public, a federal appeals court ruled Thursday, striking down the core of the state's permit system for handguns.

In a 2-1 decision, the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco said San Diego County violates the Constitution's Second Amendment by requiring residents to show "good cause" - and not merely the desire to protect themselves - to obtain a concealed-weapons permit.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/C...ng-5232386.php

This is something that's been in the works for awhile now, post Heller and Mcdonald.

I'm sure that it will end up in front of the SC, but California and the other 7 states clinging to "may-issue" or "no-issue" licensing schemes are in for an interesting ride.

The existing California law has been successfully challenged in certain counties (in general, all Concealed Carry permits are issued at the county level) with the result that the issuing agency goes to "shall-issue" in everything but name, but the urban counties are just digging in and refusing to cooperate to the point that in S.F. county it's extremely difficult to obtain just the application for the license (a violation of state law in itself) unless the applicant is known to the agency before the request is made and the OK has already been given to supply the application to the individual in question.

Another road block that S.F. and some other agencies use is that they have only one point of contact for the application and vetting process, and that individual is either unavailable or otherwise occupied unless the individual applicant has already been Ok'ed by either agency administration or other political authorities - depending on the jurisdiction, the guy they don't know that walks in off the street requesting a CCP might find it impossible to make contact with that appropriate officer for up to a year before they can finally meet.

One factor that has contributed to the success of earlier civil actions against individual counties is that during the discovery phase, it's been found that some agencies that refuse to issue carry permits do in fact issue permits to political supporters, wealthy locals, etc. who in fact note in their application that the good cause purpose of the permit is for "self-defense," and these same agencies reject self-defense as good cause for other applicants.

It also helps that when you have two plantiff's in a case and one is a lesbian who has been the victim of a hate crime that also happens to be a former LEO and a certified firearms instructor and the other a retired LEO who simply moved from one county to the next, and neither was issued a carry permit by the agency they successfully filed action against... no political connections and neither had donated money to the Sheriff's re-election campaign, when that turned out that in cross-checking of successful applicants shows that contributing to the Sheriff's war chest was a prerequisite for permit issuance...

I'll be watching for future developments.


ETA, I'll ask the mods to delete the thread I started this AM.
 
Finally, the 9th Circuit Court gets it right. This ruling is going to do so much for freedom-loving Californians when it comes to creating the illusion of personal security.
 
Unless I'm misreading this, this is a case of a more stringent gun law being struck down, no?

It's not so much a "gun law" per se but a policy of license issuance adopted pretty much statewide.

What news reports and the court decision leaves out is the whole of the process that a carry permit applicant needs to go through in California from the simple purchase of a handgun forward to the application itself, and the additional hurdles individual jurisdictions include in their local policies - million dollar liability insurance, psychological evaluations, reference statements from "prominent" community members, etc.

The local spin is that other courts have upheld restrictions on concealed carry license schemes, and the Ninth is somehow far out in left field with this ruling, ignoring the fact that 42 other states follow a "shall-issue" policy or in some cases a "no permit required" policy.

The local anti-gun folks (and there's a whole slough of orgs. funded by charitable funds, not individual members) are already spinning this ruling as requiring no standards for license issuance, which is ridiculous, but California anti's are not noted for accuracy in reporting.

The way this ruling would shake out (if upheld) for California is that most conditions of permit issuance would be fine (classroom and range training and qualification) some, like the million dollar liability policy (which I recommend highly but don't believe passes the Constitutional sniff test) will be struck down, and the list of permit holders can't be legally restricted to campaign donors, legislators, celebrities or politicians.

The real crux of this suit is the (completely subjective) "good cause" requirement that allows a Sheriff to issue a permit to a campaign donor for self defense but allows him to deny the permit for someone under real threat that claims self defense for their good cause - don't laugh - the Calguns foundation has instituted a statewide survey of the issuance policies of the 58 counties in California and over and over again in urban areas permits were approved for select individuals for the good cause of self defense when the written policy of the issuing agency was that self defense does not constitute good cause for permit issuance.

It would be funny if it wasn't such a violation of civil rights.
 
I am glad what has been corrupt abuse of power has been stopped. But I am saddened it appears it has become easier for not necessarily suitable people to have a gun.
 
I am glad what has been corrupt abuse of power has been stopped. But I am saddened it appears it has become easier for not necessarily suitable people to have a gun.
Way to ignore the facts--AKA "Cherry Picking"

It's not so much a "gun law" per se but a policy of license issuance adopted pretty much statewide.

What news reports and the court decision leaves out is the whole of the process that a carry permit applicant needs to go through in California from the simple purchase of a handgun forward to the application itself, and the additional hurdles individual jurisdictions include in their local policies - million dollar liability insurance, psychological evaluations, reference statements from "prominent" community members, etc.
The local spin is that other courts have upheld restrictions on concealed carry license schemes, and the Ninth is somehow far out in left field with this ruling, ignoring the fact that 42 other states follow a "shall-issue" policy or in some cases a "no permit required" policy.

The local anti-gun folks (and there's a whole slough of orgs. funded by charitable funds, not individual members) are already spinning this ruling as requiring no standards for license issuance, which is ridiculous, but California anti's are not noted for accuracy in reporting.

The way this ruling would shake out (if upheld) for California is that most conditions of permit issuance would be fine (classroom and range training and qualification) some, like the million dollar liability policy (which I recommend highly but don't believe passes the Constitutional sniff test) will be struck down, and the list of permit holders can't be legally restricted to campaign donors, legislators, celebrities or politicians.
The real crux of this suit is the (completely subjective) "good cause" requirement that allows a Sheriff to issue a permit to a campaign donor for self defense but allows him to deny the permit for someone under real threat that claims self defense for their good cause - don't laugh - the Calguns foundation has instituted a statewide survey of the issuance policies of the 58 counties in California and over and over again in urban areas permits were approved for select individuals for the good cause of self defense when the written policy of the issuing agency was that self defense does not constitute good cause for permit issuance.

It would be funny if it wasn't such a violation of civil rights.
 
I am glad what has been corrupt abuse of power has been stopped. But I am saddened it appears it has become easier for not necessarily suitable people to have a gun.

No, it hasn't. How do you figure? This has nothing to do with being able to obtain a gun. It only has to do with being allowed to legally carry it on one's person in public. The same people who have guns now will still have guns, and people who aren't allowed to have guns still will not be allowed to have guns.
 
The original California whackadoodle gun laws resulted from the mainstream culture's fear of the Black Panthers.

Restricting CCW on a "may issue" basis was intended to keep the right the sole domain of "acceptable" people, as identified by the cops.

Very bad idea.

Set a standard and hold everybody to it.

Good job, 9TH.
 

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