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911 physics for dummies

And once having done a little digging, do you think it likely most would come back to report they reject the truth mvt version of collapse physics?

It might take quite a bit of digging, and a certain amount of self-education, but ultimately I can't see a rational physicist coming to any other conclusion. Ultimately, though, there's so much more than the physics that doesn't make sense about the truth movement's arguments, that it becomes a minor point.

You have to understand that the central scientific argument of the truth movement, boiled down, is, "Physics says this couldn't have happened without explosives or incendiaries". That places a burden of watertight proof on the movement, where in fact there is nothing but fallacy and supposition. A responsible physics professor who actually took the trouble to look at the evidence thoroughly and objectively couldn't fail to see this. The fact that some physics professors still achieve that failure is something I find rather depressing.

Dave
 
Let me put it this way. If the question appeared on a physics exam, worded like this:

In the collapse of a high rise building, what would be the path of most resistance?



would the correct answer be

A up
B sideways
C down
D up, then sideways, then down
E all of the above

No. The correct answer would be "This is a meaningless question that was worded by a complete idiot, and why exactly are you presuming to examine my knowledge of physics?" Suppose the falling portion were to levitate into space, orbit Jupiter three times and then pass through the centre of the Sun, finally returning to Earth and falling into its own footprint. Would that be the path of most resistance? It's certainly a path of greater resistance than any you've listed above. Paths of least resistance are a sensible concept in physics because resistance may be presumed to have a minimum of zero. Paths of most resistance are not, because it is always possible to construct an infinitely long path with infinite resistance (and, of course, zero probability of being followed).

So the best answer to anyone who claims that the towers fell through the path of maximum resistance is probably to say that "path of maximum resistance" is an absurd concept.

Dave
 
Advice for chris lz - an afterthought.

Your local physics professor probably isn't the right person to ask.

At the higher levels of physics education, we tend to become less of a generalist, more specialised in a narrower range of expertise. Hence, you'll find that someone who specialises in muon-catalysed fusion, or interface states in sillicon-silica structures (to take two examples purely at random ;)) is unlikely to remember the sort of real-world experience that's needed for a critical examination of a theory that tries to spread itself around as many disciplines as it can mis-spell. University professors tend to be very much of this stamp, so it's quite possible that, when presented with a line of argument that looks authoritative but doesn't touch on their specialist research area, they'll initially be fooled.

For a more balanced and objective view with a solid grounding in the real world, you may be better looking to someone who's used to answering off-the-wall questions from people with very different perspectives, who regularly has to express physical principles by means of real-world examples, and who has to be a generalist rather than a specialist. In other words, you're probably better off asking a high school physics teacher, whose BS meter is likely to be rather more finely tuned.

Dave
 
Given what has been said above, may I tell said truthers I've never met a debunker who thinks the towers should have fallen up? That would make my day. :D

As an aside, Jim Hoffman claims that there was more energy expended in expanding the dust clouds thrown out by the Twn Towers than the total GPE of the towers themselves, and that this energy must have come from explosives. In effect, therefore, he's the one claiming that the towers should have fallen up; that's the most likely result of a detonation that large.

Dave
 
Given what has been said above, may I tell said truthers I've never met a debunker who thinks the towers should have fallen up? That would make my day. :D
That's actually an excellent reply, and may get them to think a bit.
 
Quote: One thing I know for certain.. is that under no circumstances can straight down be considered the path of "most" resistance, given any reasonable definition of resistance.

versus

Originally Posted by FramerDave
The "path of most resistance" in this case happens to be down


So in what sense then, if any, is the latter statement correct?

The only way I can imagine that the latter statement above being seen as correct is for what I'd consider to be irrational and unreasonable definitions of at least one of the following words: most, resistance, or down.

Part of the problem is truthers aren't very precise and tend to imply alot of things when they speak. When truthers say that the "path of most resistance" is down, they don't really mean that. What they are trying to say is that of some reasonable subset of paths, the path of most resistance is straight down. DaveRogers touched on this idea earlier. There are an infinite number of paths and presumably resistance doesn't have an upper bound.. therefore there is no path of maximal resistance when all possible paths are considered. Truthers tend to leave out their implied assumption that the paths under consideration aren't all paths, but some subset of paths they are considering. Of course what defines their reasonable subset is completely left up in the air.. and how they decided that this particular path is maximally resistant goes unmentioned.

If you pin a truther down and make him tell you exactly how and/or why the path the buildings followed they've decided to be of "most resistance" their arguments tend to fail gloriously. Most of their arguments relate to the incredibly oversimplified argument that because there is "stuff" in the way in the direction of straight down, it therefore has the most resistance (compared with other, unspoken, but presumably reasonable paths). Of course, this fundamental assumption in their argument is absurd, as it's trivial to create scenarios where the path of "least resistance" is, in fact, straight through something, as opposed to going around.
 
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Dave's Probably Right....

Well Dave's right, most profs do specialize, and unless they've been very bad and relegated to teaching Classical Mechanics for the last 10 years they may be of little use to you. Then again, profs who have been teaching Classical Mechanics for 10 years have an uncanny ability at making you feel like a complete idiot when they do explain stuff. ("What do you mean you don't know Lagrange's Method?!!?!")
But in the hallowed halls of academia Chris has a very good chance of finding a Teachers Assistant or even student very well versed in Newtonian Mechanics and more than willing to lend his or her expertise in this area. Perhaps even spark his or her interest in, for lack of a better word, "Woo Physics", creating strong allies in the war on stupidity. Plus Chris has been afforded the luxury of living in what is the modern day hotbed of physics activity, Boston. (Unless he some how makes it to Geneva, Boston must have the highest per capita concentration of physics students in the world)
So why not do it? There's nothing to lose and only knowledge to be gained. And if for some reason you recieve a cold reception in the physics department there's always the *snicker* Engineers. Those kiss asses will do anything for attention...;)
 
Given what has been said above, may I tell said truthers I've never met a debunker who thinks the towers should have fallen up? That would make my day. :D

That's actually an excellent reply, and may get them to think a bit.


You know, if someone could get Judy Wood to change her thesis to a gravity beam, we could claim we've seen a truther think this!

Yukka yukka yukka yukka yukka...
 
Okay, look, if those folks are going to invoke "path of most/least resistance", why don't they also admit that forces involved dictate much of this? Engineers and physicists, please correct me if I'm grasping this wrong, but: Whatever resistance the lower levels provide must be weighed against the force applied by gravity to the upper sections. At that point, this simply (blah! Simply!...:rolleyes:) becomes a calculation of the forces in question, like what Bazant's work involved. Does the force imposed by the upper sections overcome the "resistance" of the lower ones [/rhetorical question]? I realize there are threads discussing this (as well as digressions in other threads not centered on this topic), but my point is that this is the proper way to analyze the whole concept of "path of most/least resistance".

On top of that, many people invoking that argument also claim the towers should have toppled over to the side. Again, what force is acting laterally to make this happen [/second rhetorical question]? Folks who make the "toppled over to the side" argument should be asked that question as well.

[/rant]
 
There's nothing to lose and only knowledge to be gained. And if for some reason you recieve a cold reception in the physics department there's always the *snicker* Engineers. Those kiss asses will do anything for attention...;)

It's true =[

On a side note, Structural engineers are basically just physicists who have specialized in newtonian mechanics. It's all we do. Well, besides business related stuff.
 
On a side note, Structural engineers are basically just physicists who have specialized in newtonian mechanics. It's all we do. Well, besides business related stuff.

Mind you, if one of my optical switches doesn't work too well, it tends to kill rather fewer people than if one of your buildings doesn't work too well.

Dave
 
Thanks everyone for another round of excellent answers and insights.

I'd like to return to the issue of "free fall/near free fall," as it seems to be the truthers' cleverest trick. Forget the definition of "near free fall" for now. The more fundamental truther claim is, the towers fell "too quickly." I'm under the impression this is one of the more easily refuted claims. If so, is it a matter of some basic physics equations?
 
Thanks everyone for another round of excellent answers and insights.

I'd like to return to the issue of "free fall/near free fall," as it seems to be the truthers' cleverest trick. Forget the definition of "near free fall" for now. The more fundamental truther claim is, the towers fell "too quickly." I'm under the impression this is one of the more easily refuted claims. If so, is it a matter of some basic physics equations?
This silliness doesn't even need equations. Simple observation shows this to be utterly stupid. If you look at the photos, you see debris from the building falling way ahead of the main collapse front. Therefore, this claim of "freefall/near freefall", is absolute nonsense. Where anyone came up with that idiotic idea, only the FSM knows!
 
I'd like to return to the issue of "free fall/near free fall," as it seems to be the truthers' cleverest trick. Forget the definition of "near free fall" for now. The more fundamental truther claim is, the towers fell "too quickly." I'm under the impression this is one of the more easily refuted claims. If so, is it a matter of some basic physics equations?

As with everything else, there are layers to this one. In order of decreasing absurdity, they look something like this.

1. Faster than freefall. On a quick Google search last week, I found three sites with content originating in 2007 that made this claim, so claims by the truth movement that they've moved on from this assertion are as weak as the claims that they've moved on from pods or the missing 4,000 Jews. The claim is that explosives created a partial vacuum that sucked the buildings downwards. If you're talking to someone who actually needs to hear a physics argument to refute this, give up talking to them right now.

2. At freefall. This is usually backed up by reference to the NIST report, which gives times from collapse initiation to the first exterior panels hitting the ground. Not surprisingly, this refers to free falling debris, which did indeed hit the ground at the time free falling debris would be expected to hit the ground. The collapses were significantly slower than this, and the irrefutable evidence can be found - as the steely-eyed killed of the deep says - in still photos. It's a remarkably poor dynamic argument that can be refuted by a single static picture.

3. Near freefall. Now we get to the heart of the issue, which is that truthers claim that the towers fell slower than freefall, but not slowly enough. This is a classic example of the undefined inequality, where a truther argues that A is less than B, but refuses to evaluate A or B. The simple response, therefore, is to evaluate both, and show that in fact they aren't different. And this is where the argument gets serious, as you'll see from one or two current threads.

The problem here is that neither the predicted nor the actual collapse time is known to great accuracy. Actual times are based on a combination of video evidence and seismic data, because the final stages of the collapse were hidden by dust clouds, and are generally estimated to be in the range 12-16 seconds for the main collapse. Predicted times are more difficult, because the collapse was such a complex event that it is essentially impossible to model. There are various simplifications that can be made to give an estimate of the collapse times, and Frank Greening's papers give the most thorough analysis of these simplifications that I've seen - see http://www.911myths.com/html/other_contributions.html - but these rely on an understanding of the failure properties of steel that are far from trivial, and on numerical modelling (albeit simple enough that it can be done in a spreadsheet). The result is that the observed collapse times are exactly what they would be expected to be, to within the errors of both the measurement and the model.

Truther responses to this tend to take two tacks. One is to try to repeat the calculations but generate an estimate far in excess of the actual collapse time; Kenneth Kuttler and Charles Beck both do this, but their results are based on wildly inaccurate and unrealistic assumptions about the failure properties of steel. The other is to try and cast doubt on the simplifications used in the model; Major Tom, on this forum, appears to be heading this way. The problem with this argument is that it doesn't offer a line of disproof, because even if we accept these criticisms we're then back to the situation where the collapse is not amenable to modelling. Given that the truth movement is trying to prove that the collapse times cannot be consistent with gravity based collapse, this therefore invalidates their whole argument, but generally they choose not to acknowledge this minor point.

So the answer is, no, there aren't any particularly basic physics equations that help here; it's a complex situation to model, and requires detailed understanding of steel failure mechanisms. I've learned a lot about the subject on this forum, and there's still a lot I'm not up to speed on. However, so far all the evidence is that there was nothing unusual about the speed at which the Twin Towers collapsed, and any claimed evidence to the contrary has been shown to be fatally flawed.

Dave
 
Dave, very helpful and informative, and much appreciated.

Observation: "first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated" meaning the debris that was falling ahead of the main structure is a good point, and I didn't realize that's what they meant. Just wondering why NIST would have preceded this with the misleading question: "How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)." That's probably caused a lot of unnecessary confusion for truthers and debunkers alike.

Follow-up question: We have heard from Leslie Robertson, NIST, Brent Blanchard, and others, that in theory a gravity driven collapse (for any building) resulting in the same approximate fall rate as the twin towers, is not surprising, but more or less expected. So forgetting the exact parameters of the twin towers collapses, is there a basic equation that shows why in theory a building may collapse as quickly as that observed on 9/11?

Thanks for your time.
 
Follow-up question: We have heard from Leslie Robertson, NIST, Brent Blanchard, and others, that in theory a gravity driven collapse (for any building) resulting in the same approximate fall rate as the twin towers, is not surprising, but more or less expected. So forgetting the exact parameters of the twin towers collapses, is there a basic equation that shows why in theory a building may collapse as quickly as that observed on 9/11?

Follow-up to the follow-up: or if not an equation, then just a concise but detailed explanation in layman's terms.

Here's a typical exchange I see over and over again

truther: "how do you account for the absurdly fast collapse times, given all the resistance? That violates physics.

debunker response 1 "You're obviously ignorant of physics"

debunker response 2 "Show me a peer review paper supporting this"

debunker response 3 "So all, the structural engineers in the world are ignoramuses."

Instead, I'd like to be able to answer the skeptic with an uncontroversial explanation utilizing the key concepts involved, such as gravitational potential energy, and so on. I've seen bits and pieces of this explanation scattered in various posts, but not comprehensively in a short paragraph in layman's terms. If this is possible to do, I welcome anyone's suggestion.
 
Follow-up to the follow-up: or if not an equation, then just a concise but detailed explanation in layman's terms.

Here's a typical exchange I see over and over again

truther: "how do you account for the absurdly fast collapse times, given all the resistance? That violates physics.

debunker response 1 "You're obviously ignorant of physics"

debunker response 2 "Show me a peer review paper supporting this"

debunker response 3 "So all, the structural engineers in the world are ignoramuses."

Instead, I'd like to be able to answer the skeptic with an uncontroversial explanation utilizing the key concepts involved, such as gravitational potential energy, and so on. I've seen bits and pieces of this explanation scattered in various posts, but not comprehensively in a short paragraph in layman's terms. If this is possible to do, I welcome anyone's suggestion.


I tell people this: "Without having specific values for 'all that resistance' or the force of the falling structures, what is your basis for saying the collapse time is 'absurdly fast'? How do you know which value is greater?"

It doesn't help, of course.
 
Follow-up to the follow-up: or if not an equation, then just a concise but detailed explanation in layman's terms.

Here's a typical exchange I see over and over again

truther: "how do you account for the absurdly fast collapse times, given all the resistance? That violates physics.

debunker response 1 "You're obviously ignorant of physics"

debunker response 2 "Show me a peer review paper supporting this"

debunker response 3 "So all, the structural engineers in the world are ignoramuses."

Instead, I'd like to be able to answer the skeptic with an uncontroversial explanation utilizing the key concepts involved, such as gravitational potential energy, and so on. I've seen bits and pieces of this explanation scattered in various posts, but not comprehensively in a short paragraph in layman's terms. If this is possible to do, I welcome anyone's suggestion.
I would suggest you ask them to provide the calculations supporting their assertion that the collapse times were "absurdly fast". Actually, don't ask, demand. Based on everything I've seen to date, you will either never hear from them again or they will change the subject.
 
truther: "how do you account for the absurdly fast collapse times, given all the resistance? That violates physics.

debunker response 1 "You're obviously ignorant of physics"

debunker response 2 "Show me a peer review paper supporting this"

debunker response 3 "So all, the structural engineers in the world are ignoramuses."

I don't like any of those responses.

The truther has asked a question and also made a claim. The "correct" response is to ask the truther to demonstrate this claim that the official collapse narrative would violate the laws of physics. If he can't do such a thing, he cannot conclude that the official narrative violates any laws of physics.. only that it -might-. He has failed to falsify the official narrative.

As for the question the truther asked, I think it's valid. How do we account for the speed of the collapse? One can construct -very- simple models of the collapse and solve for times on the order of those seen.. however truthers will attack these models for their absurd simplicity. Truthers don't feel the need to determine how much the simplification effected the results.. they believe it's simply enough to point out it didn't happen "exactly" like that, therefore your math is wrong. In a truther's messed up state of mind, he believes if your calculation involves any simplification at all, or if any of your assumptions clearly aren't valid, your entire calculation can be tossed out... when this simply isn't true. The burden on the truther is to demonstrate that that violated assumption renders the result meaningless. If some assumption I make in my calculation only effects the decimal-point in the third decimal place, is it really meaningless? It's simply insufficient to demonstrate that some simplying assumption is incorrect (by definition, in a sense).

If you want the simplest possible mathematical model that roughly approximates what happens in the tower, we can give you one. It's probably treating each floor as a solid mass, with a dropped mass on top, undergoing a series of compeltely inelastic collisions. It requires pretty simple algebra to solve this particular problem. People have done this. And from there... it goes upward in complexity. We can show you how it would increase in complexity and accuracy up to and including the papers from Bazant et al. which involve pretty sophisticated mathematics.

A whole mess of models in this range exist and have solutions scattered about the internet.. all of them put the collapse time in the same order of magnitude, in direct contradiction to the flawed mathematics of Judy Wood and others.
 
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If you want the simplest possible mathematical model that roughly approximates what happens in the tower, we can give you one. It's probably treating each floor as a solid mass, with a dropped mass on top, undergoing a series of compeltely inelastic collisions. It requires pretty simple algebra to solve this particular problem.


Thanks. I take it "inelastic" is key here. Is there a sample algebraic model (or whatever you'd call it) somewhere on the net I could look at- as opposed to the more complex equations I see in the WTC science papers that throw me for a loop?
 

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