911 Facts Consolidated

[Mudcat]

eroded? Seriously? What a weird choice of words for "crushed beyond recognition". Anywhoo, why didn't they just plant some fake black boxes along with all the other planed parts?

If the black boxes aren't found, it's suspicious. If they are found, it's suspicious.

If this line of reasoning is supposed to be a joke, I don't find it a very funny one.

 

[tsig]

No.



It is also possible they were destroyed beyond any possible recovery, which wouldn't be a first either.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why an unrecovered black box is in any way suspicious.

Everything is suspicious.

Even the date, 911 = emergency # coincidence or conspiracy?

 

[Mudcat]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/misc.php?do=bbcode#table

Thank you. CM, for your viewing pleasure; a list of commercial aircraft crashes where the black boxes were not recovered:

Date of Crash|Flight Number|Airline|Plane Type|Presumed Location|Notes
1965-08-16|389 |United Airlines|Boeing 727-22|Lake Michigan, off Chicago, Illinois|Resting in 76*m (249*ft) of water; FDR recording media never found
1973-07-22|816 |Pan American World Airways|Boeing 707-321B|Pacific Ocean, off Papeete, Tahiti|Resting in 700*m (2,300*ft) of water; neither recorder found
1975-09-30|240|Malév|Tupolev Tu-154|near the Lebanese shoreline|Resting in between 600 and 1,000 m (2,000 and 3,300 ft) of water.
1979-01-30|cargo|Varig aircraft PP-VLU|Boeing 707-323C|in the Pacific Ocean, around 200 kilometers East Northeast from Tokyo, Japan|The aircraft debris were never located and thus, neither the CVR and FDR was found and the cause of the crash was never determined.
1985-01-01|980|Eastern Air Lines|Boeing 727-225|25*nmi (46*km) from La Paz at the 19,600*ft (5,970*m) level of Andean peak Mt. Illimani.|Due to the extreme high altitude and inaccessibility of the accident location, the FDR and CVR were never recovered.
1987-11-28|295 |South African Airways|Boeing 747-244B Combi|Indian Ocean, near Mauritius|CVR located at 4,900*m (16,100*ft); FDR not found.
1987-11-29|858 |Korean Air|Boeing 707-3B5C|Andaman Sea |Neither flight recorder was ever found.
1992-10-04|1862|El Al Israel Airlines|Boeing 747-258F |Groeneveen and Klein-Kruitberg flats in the Bijlmermeer, Amsterdam Zuidoost| One Black Box was found. The tape was broken in 4 pieces. The last 2:45 minutes were unreadable.
2001-09-11|11|American Airlines|Boeing 767-223ER|North World Trade Center, New York City|Neither flight recorder found, destroyed in the building.
2001-09-11|175 |United Airlines|Boeing 767-222|South World Trade Center, New York City|Neither flight recorder found, destroyed in the building. See above.
2001-10-04|1812|Siberia Airlines|Tupolev Tu-154|Black Sea|Neither flight recorder found.

 

[jaydeehess]

Anyone have a picture of the FDR or CVR from aircraft in which they were unreadable. You know, to show CM what it looks like when its only subjected to a crash and still cannot be used as opposed to being torn apart by a 100 storey high speed rock crusher.

 

[jaydeehess]

This is the cockpit voice recorder of AA77. Less building crushed down on it than those of AA11 and UA175.

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Flight_77_CVR.jpg/658px-Flight_77_CVR.jpg[/qimg]

,,, and that one still contained usable data!

 

[Robrob]

Simple, ignorant supposed thread contribution.

And yet you weren't able to answer it...

Anyone have a picture of the FDR or CVR from aircraft in which they were unreadable. You know, to show CM what it looks like when its only subjected to a crash and still cannot be used as opposed to being torn apart by a 100 storey high speed rock crusher.

Further example of CT's willingness to theorize about things they don't actually understand.

FDR/CVR barely survive typical plane crashes. Typical crashes meaning belly landings by pilots attempting to land as slowly and softly as possible. Not 90 degree full speed impacts.

 

[JohnG]

Hey, you know those black box deals on airplanes? They're supposed to be indestructible, right? So why don't they make the entire airplane out of the black box material? I mean come on, people! And what's the deal with airplane food?

Truthers; like hacky standup comedians from the 80s, only less funny:

1 black box not found? Okay it's possible.

2 black boxes not found? Maybe.

3 black boxes not found? Huh?

4 black boxes not found? Nope.

Don't black boxes have transmitters that would have been transmitting so that they can be located? Isn't that what they do?

Strange that the only people who find the absence of the black boxes suspicious are people who know NOTHING about black boxes.

And of course by "Strange" I mean "Typical".

 

[Justin39640]

1 black box not found? Okay it's possible.

2 black boxes not found? Maybe.

3 black boxes not found? Huh?

4 black boxes not found? Nope.

Don't black boxes have transmitters that would have been transmitting so that they can be located? Isn't that what they do?

They do but they're pretty useless when they've been torn to shreds. How good would your iPod work if you threw it into a wood chipper??? Get it???

 

[Clayton Moore]

They do but they're pretty useless when they've been torn to shreds. How good would your iPod work if you threw it into a wood chipper??? Get it???

That shredder crap is just plain stupid. A black box, or even an iPod, would be smashed and flattened not shredded to the point it would be unrecognizable.

 

[Giordano]

That shredder crap is just plain stupid. A black box, or even an iPod, would be smashed and flattened not shredded to the point it would be unrecognizable.

I don't think you understand the physical forces generated by the collapse of buildings that tall and heavy, let alone the effects of heat of the fires. You are imagining what an iPod would look like if a car rolled over it; imagine instead an iPod after it was placed in a hydrolytic press, concrete mixer, and blast furnace.

Also imagine two pits with all the structural components of two 110 story buildings torn apart and crushed into chunks, plus all the contents of the offices within those buildings, charred, burned, and melted. Now imagine finding two deformed, burnt, ripped black boxes (probably pieces of black boxes) within this multi story mass of debris.

Harder than you thought, yes?

 

[Mudcat]

I don't think you understand the physical forces generated by the collapse of buildings that tall and heavy, let alone the effects of heat of the fires. You are imagining what an iPod would look like if a car rolled over it; imagine instead an iPod after it was placed in a hydrolytic press, concrete mixer, and blast furnace.

Also imagine two pits with all the structural components of two 110 story buildings torn apart and crushed into chunks, plus all the contents of the offices within those buildings, charred, burned, and melted. Now imagine finding two deformed, burnt, ripped black boxes (probably pieces of black boxes) within this multi story mass of debris.

Harder than you thought, yes?

Finding that needle in the hay stack seems that much easier in comparison.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I don't think you understand the physical forces generated by the collapse of buildings that tall and heavy, let alone the effects of heat of the fires. You are imagining what an iPod would look like if a car rolled over it; imagine instead an iPod after it was placed in a hydrolytic press, concrete mixer, and blast furnace.

Also imagine two pits with all the structural components of two 110 story buildings torn apart and crushed into chunks, plus all the contents of the offices within those buildings, charred, burned, and melted. Now imagine finding two deformed, burnt, ripped black boxes (probably pieces of black boxes) within this multi story mass of debris.

Harder than you thought, yes?

No. The premise that somehow 1/5 of a 110 story building demolished the 4/5 of the building below it by pushing down through it is madness. Pontificating that obvious madness borders on ........

 

[dafydd]

No. The premise that somehow 1/5 of a 110 story building demolished the 4/5 of the building below it by pushing down through it is madness. Pontificating that obvious madness borders on ........

Sigh. Go and learn some physics.

 

[brazenlilraisin]

No. The premise that somehow 1/5 of a 110 story building demolished the 4/5 of the building below it by pushing down through it is madness. Pontificating that obvious madness borders on ........

On what, madder madness? Mad-mad-madly mad madness? Or maybe you're just wrong about, well, everything.

 

[triforcharity]

1 black box not found? Okay it's possible.

2 black boxes not found? Maybe.

3 black boxes not found? Huh?

4 black boxes not found? Nope.

Don't black boxes have transmitters that would have been transmitting so that they can be located? Isn't that what they do?

Yes, if they're operational. They're designed to withstand certain events. Not designed to be able to survive an impact of ~550 MPH into a building, burn for a while, then go through a proverbial blender when the WTC collapsed, then survive hours, or even days of being burned some more.

It wouldn't have been recognizable after the collapse, let alone operational.

Your suspicions are based on your own ignorance. Please feel free to look up what a Honeywell FDR and CVR are tested to be able to withstand. It's not as much as you think.

 

[tsig]

No. The premise that somehow 1/5 of a 110 story building demolished the 4/5 of the building below it by pushing down through it is madness. Pontificating that obvious madness borders on ........

I see you don't understand the ² part about gravity.

 

[twinstead]

No. The premise that somehow 1/5 of a 110 story building demolished the 4/5 of the building below it by pushing down through it is madness. Pontificating that obvious madness borders on ........

Ladies and gentlemen, THIS is argument by simple incredulity 101.

PROVE IT

 

[Animal]

Finding that needle in the hay stack seems that much easier in comparison.

Yep, finding pieces of this
http://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/black-box6.htm
among all the other computer parts that would have been crushed along with it, would be next to impossible....especially with the focus on human remains.

 

[Bell]

No. The premise that somehow 1/5 of a 110 story building demolished the 4/5 of the building below it by pushing down through it is madness. Pontificating that obvious madness borders on ........

Haven't we been over this already?

For the lurkers:

+/- 15 floors for WTC1 and +/- 30 floors for WTC2 crushed 1 floor below, then those 15+1 and 30+1 crushed the next floor below and so on and so forth.

 

[twinstead]

Haven't we been over this already?

For the lurkers:

+/- 15 floors for WTC1 and +/- 30 floors for WTC2 crushed 1 floor below, then those 15+1 and 30+1 crushed the next floor below and so on and so forth.

Who in their right mind would call this "madness"?