911 commission destroys mmoore's F/911

[wjousts]

I'll try again,

What was the purpose of detailing the information about the flights in F911?

To show that the Saudi and bin Laden family members left at the earliest possible opportunity and without an extensive interview.

 

[Nasarius]

Nope.

The original, incorrect, quote says: No one was allowed to fly... except the Bin Ladens.

After Sept 13 anyone in a charter aircraft was allowed to fly, including the Bin Ladens.


MattJ

Try again. "Even Ricky Martin couldn't fly. But really, who wanted to fly? No one...except the Bin Ladens."

 

[Grammatron]

To show that the Saudi and bin Laden family members left at the earliest possible opportunity and without an extensive interview.

Actually, that last part is not true.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flight.htm

 

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by RandFan

quote:
I'll try again,

What was the purpose of detailing the information about the flights in F911?

Reply:
quote:
Originally posted by wjousts
To show that the Saudi and bin Laden family members left at the earliest possible opportunity and without an extensive interview.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Grammatron
quote:
Actually, that last part is not true.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flight.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------


OK, then that ISN'T what Moore meant, he clearly meant something else...errr yeah, that's the ticket!!

 

[RandFan]

To show that the Saudi and bin Laden family members left at the earliest possible opportunity...

And that is important because?










#@%$ like pulling teeth sheesh

 

[aerocontrols]

No try again:

Even your incorrect statement says the bin Ladens flew out after september 13th and this was not disputed by the quote from the 9/11 commission.

Good grief.

Yes. The statement (the correct part, not the incorrect part) says that they flew out after Sept. 13. Feel free to point out why this is relevant to the issue at hand, or where you think I've disputed that.

The incorrect part, the part that I put in bold, the part that I said was wrong, the part that Michael Moore didn't say, was the sentence that doesn't give dates. It says (I quote yet again) No one was allowed to fly... except the Bin Ladens.

That statement is wrong. There was not a moment in time after 9/11 when no one but the Bin Ladens could fly. You keep pointing to "Sept 13" - do you believe that on Sept 13 that statement was true?

No one was allowed to fly... except the Bin Ladens.

What about Sept 12?

No one was allowed to fly... except the Bin Ladens.

Sept 14?

No one was allowed to fly... except the Bin Ladens.

At what time do you think that statement is true, or is it false, as I said?

On Sept 12, no one except government officials and military could fly.

On Sept 13, anyone in a charter airplane as well as empty commercial aircraft could fly.

On Sept 14, commercial airplanes could carry passengers again.

When was the bolded sentence true? At what point in time were the Bin Ladens the only ones allowed in the sky?

Sorry for the length, but one of us just isn't following the other.

MattJ

 

[aerocontrols]

Try again. "Even Ricky Martin couldn't fly. But really, who wanted to fly? No one...except the Bin Ladens."

Yes, that's why I edited my post and put the correct quote in it 10 minutes after I first posted. Wjousts is saying that even my misquote would not be a false statement, had Moore said it, which we agree he did not.

MattJ

 

[daredelvis]

Re: Re: Re: 911 commission report destroys mmoore's F/911

Ive seen the movie 3 times....I downloaded it.

moore skillfully chose his words so that findings like these wouldnt make him into a complete jackass,...

Unfortunately a skill you have not mastered.

Daredelvis

 

[RandFan]

If the right-wing zombies insist on bringing up (and doing a dang bad job of refuting it), Moore's F911, that's fine with me.

Hi Charlie,

RandFan AKA right-wing zombie here.

I can't seem to get an answer. Perhaps you could help. What was the purpose of the saudi and Bin Ladens leaving on the 13th in F911?

 

[rikzilla]

Hi Charlie,

RandFan AKA right-wing zombie here.

I can't seem to get an answer. Perhaps you could help. What was the purpose of the saudi and Bin Ladens leaving on the 13th in F911?

Hmm...could it be that he's a lying rat-bastard doing his best to make the President of his own country look like a bad guy in the midst of a national crisis???

Finally, Moore's line, "But really, who wanted to fly? No one. Except the bin Ladens,” happens to be a personal lie. Stranded in California on September 11, Michael Moore ended up driving home to New York City. On September 14, he wrote to his fans "Our daughter is fine, mostly frightened by my desire to fly home to her rather than drive." Moore acceded to the wishes of his wife and daughter, and drove back to New York. It is pretty hypocritical for Moore to slam the Saudis (who had very legitimate fears of being attacked by angry people) just because they wanted to fly home, at the same time when Moore himself wanted to fly home.

LINK

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

Hi Charlie,

RandFan AKA right-wing zombie here.

I can't seem to get an answer. Perhaps you could help. What was the purpose of the saudi and Bin Ladens leaving on the 13th in F911?

I can only give my opinion. The Saudi's in the US probably felt there would be a backlash against them and called a personal favor from the Bush family (both Sr and JR) to get their butts out as soon as possible. Moore clearly showed that there was a Bush/Saudi connection (IMHO for business purposes).

Does this imply the Saudi's were responsible for 9/11? No.

Does this imply Bush knew the attack prior to 9/11? No.

Charlie (opinions are cheap, but thanks for asking) Monoxide

 

[UserGoogol]

That all depends on what you mean by "wanted to fly" and "except the Bin Ladens." Was flying in-of-itself something he greatly desired to do? Not really. But was he willing to do it if it allowed him to get to his family quickly? Yeah. Of course, by that same definition one could argue that the Bin Ladens didn't want to fly. "Except the Bin Ladens," however, can be taken a little sarcastically. (Mikey likes sarcasm.) One could intepret it to mean, "Except, apparently, the Bin Ladens." What he's really implying is, "Well obviously the Bin Ladens didn't want to fly. But they flew anyway, because they felt they had to leave the country very quickly. Why?"

Of course, the Bin Laden had some very reasonable reasons to want to leave the country, so Moore's point is dulled a little. But he wasn't neccesarily lying.

Now, I haven't watched Fahrenheit 9-11, so I don't know if my interpretation is likely or not. (Tone of voice is key.) But it seems like the way he'd say it.

 

[curi0us]

I'll try again,

What was the purpose of detailing the information about the flights in F911?

IMO you have to look at the other points being brought around the issue to understand where Moore is going with it.

What's Moore purpose in mentioning the guy who has the FBI show up at his house because in casual conversation he called "Bush an a**hole"?

What purpose did telling the story of nonviolent peace activists PeaceFresno being covertly infiltrated have? Especially consider the detail of they only found out about because of really unusual circumstances.

What's the point of mentioning the hundreds(?) of Arabs detained by the US? That one is in the middle of the discussion about the Bin Laden flights. Personally I think Moore should have spent more time on that issue but he does clearly bring it up. As an example, I think the Arar case is probably worthy of it's own documentary, but here is a quick summary:

On September 26, 2002, Maher Arar was seized by FBI and INS agents while transiting through JFK Airport to a connecting flight home from a family vacation. After holding Mr. Arar in harsh and punitive conditions, coercively interrogating him for hours on end, and depriving him of contact with his family, his consulate, and his lawyer, federal officials rushed Mr. Arar off in a private jet to Jordan and then on to Syria.

The lawsuit alleges that United States government officials made the decision to deport Mr. Arar to Syria with the full knowledge of the existence of state-sponsored torture in that country, and in direct contravention of the Convention Against Torture, a treaty signed and ratified by the United States in 1994. Syria is one of seven countries the Bush administration has designated as sponsors of state terrorism. Federal officials deported Mr. Arar to Syria under the Government’s “extraordinary renditions” program precisely because that country can and does use methods of interrogation that would not be legal or morally acceptable in this country or any other democratic country. Maher Arar is the first victim of an “extraordinary rendition” able to tell the story.http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report.asp?ObjID=vRQgEt97ZX&Content=318

If you read the pdf what happend is way messed up before he is even deported. And when he was deported nobody even bothered to tell the Canadian consulate (who had assured Arar that he couldn't be deported to Syria) or his family!!!! Arar just went missing, as if we're some f*cked third world dictatorship. His family and Canada didn't know where he was while he was being tortured in syria. What's scary is that the only evidence against him appears be along the lines of "he once knew someone were pretty sure was a terrorist". If there's anything more I haven't seen it.

OK, back to movie. What's Moore's point in showing the one state trooper who guards the orgeon coast by maybe driving by it once or twice a week? In a movie where he clearly is suggesting that fear is being used to control people is he really saying we should freak out about the lack of coastal supervision? Or, is he trying highlight how out of whack some of fears (and the associated behaviors) are? IMO, it's the same thing with the Bin Laden family getting special treatment. Isn't interesting how we use the argument Iraq had some sort of connection to OBL to invade Iraq while we were good friends with others connected to OBL? Oh wait, as Prince Bandar says on Larry King live, we were once helping out OBL ourselves. What did Bandar himself call that? "Ironic" I think.

Moore's point IMO: The stated reasons for the actions of the adminstartion are not sincere and by comparing the responses to various actions one can get a clear sense of that. If we really were so concerned about an attack on our country might we being doing a little more to protect our own costalines rather than invading a country on the other side of the world. If we were really so concerned about terrorism that we think we are justified ignoring our traditonal notions of civil rights why are we going out of our way to make life easier for people associated with (blood relations at least) with the main terrorist. Call Bush an a**hole, FBI shows up your house. Goto to a wedding with OBL in 2001, just tell the FBI you don't agree with his poltics and your on your way?!? If the bin Ladens were really extended no extra courtesies as the FBI says then which branch of the FBI is assigned to deal with the families of Islamic terrorists beacuse I know some peace activists and enviromentalist who would absolutely love to get that kind of treatment. And you probably know of some other messed stuff done by FBI that I don't even know about. . .

(Bush's comments about drug users supporting terrorism was something I was surprised didn't make it into the movie.)

 

[RandFan]

I can only give my opinion. The Saudi's in the US probably felt there would be a backlash against them and called a personal favor from the Bush family (both Sr and JR) to get their butts out as soon as possible.

Therein lies the confusion. They did not need a favor from Bush. Richard Clarke had cleared them and there were no restrictions.

Thanks though.

 

[crimresearch]

curi0us, good job of putting Moore's points into the larger context.

Which then makes room to put Moore's claim's of 'censorship', '100% accuracy', '$10,000 prize for a single error', and 'non-fiction' documentaries into their context.

 

[RandFan]

IMO you have to look at the other points being brought around the issue to understand where Moore is going with it.

{snip}

Huh? I'm sorry to be so dense. I read your post twice and I did not understand, what does the Saudis and Bin-Ladens leaving on planes lhave to do with anything? Is it possible to be a bit more pithy?

 

[curi0us]

To show that the Saudi and bin Laden family members left at the earliest possible opportunity and without an extensive interview.

Actually, that last part is not true.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flight.htm [/QUOTE]
Actually, snopes doesn't conclusively prove what wjousts said was wrong. They have contractivory quotes from FBI officials and prove things "untrue" that Moore never said, not to mention we aren't dealing with F911 but comments made much earlier (and likely less well researched since he says "little interview" in the movie). Here's part of Moore's response:

FAHRENHEIT 9/11: The FBI conducted “a little interview, check[ed] the passport.”

Last year, the National Review reported that the FBI conducted brief, day-of-departure interviews with the Saudis -- in the words of an FBI spokesman, "at the airport, as they were about to leave." Experts interviewed by the National Review called the FBI's actions "highly unusual" given the fact that those departing were actually members of Osama bin Laden's family. "They [the FBI] could not have done a thorough and complete interview," said John L.Martin, the former head of internal security at the Justice Department. "The Great Escape : How did assorted bin Ladens get out of America after September 11?" National Review, September 29, 2003.

“Thirty of the 142 people on these flights were interviewed by the FBI, including 22 of the 26 people (23 passengers and 3 private security guards) on the Bin Ladin flight. Many were asked detailed questions. None of the passengers stated that they had any recent contact with Usama Bin Ladin or knew anything about terrorist activity." National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, Threats and Responses in 2001, Staff Statement No. 10, The Saudi Flights, p. 12; http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing10/staff_statement_10.pdf
“I talked to several people who were with the FBI during the actual repatriation. And they told me there was a lot of back-and-forth between the FBI and the Saudi Embassy. And the Saudi Embassy tried to get people to leave without even identifying them. The FBI succeeded in identifying people and going through their passports. But, in many cases, you had the FBI meeting people for the first time on the tarmac or on the planes themselves as they were departing. That was not time for a serious interview or a serious interrogation.” Interview with Craig Unger, CNN, September 4, 2003.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/index.php?id=18

 

[curi0us]

Huh? I'm sorry to be so dense. I read your post twice and I did not understand, what does the Saudis and Bin-Ladens leaving on planes lhave to do with anything? Is it possible to be a bit more pithy?

I had to look up pithy, I'm wary of shortening my response to the point that I oversimplify away details that I think are important so instead here's a little snip from Moore's page on that part of the film:

The film puts this in perspective. Imagine President Clinton facilitating the exit of members of the McVeigh family out of the country following the Oklahoma City bombing. Or compare this treatment to the hundreds of people detained following the 9/11 attacks who were held without charges for months on end, who had no relationship to Osama bin Laden.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911facts/index.php?id=4

[size=-2]Edit for clarity.[/size]

 

[Grammatron]

Actually, snopes doesn't conclusively prove what wjousts said was wrong. They have contractivory quotes from FBI officials and prove things "untrue" that Moore never said, not to mention we aren't dealing with F911 but comments made much earlier (and likely less well researched since he says "little interview" in the movie). Here's part of Moore's response:

FAHRENHEIT 9/11: The FBI conducted “a little interview, check[ed] the passport.”

Last year, the National Review reported that the FBI conducted brief, day-of-departure interviews with the Saudis -- in the words of an FBI spokesman, "at the airport, as they were about to leave." Experts interviewed by the National Review called the FBI's actions "highly unusual" given the fact that those departing were actually members of Osama bin Laden's family. "They [the FBI] could not have done a thorough and complete interview," said John L.Martin, the former head of internal security at the Justice Department. "The Great Escape : How did assorted bin Ladens get out of America after September 11?" National Review, September 29, 2003.

“Thirty of the 142 people on these flights were interviewed by the FBI, including 22 of the 26 people (23 passengers and 3 private security guards) on the Bin Ladin flight. Many were asked detailed questions. None of the passengers stated that they had any recent contact with Usama Bin Ladin or knew anything about terrorist activity." National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, Threats and Responses in 2001, Staff Statement No. 10, The Saudi Flights, p. 12; http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing10/staff_statement_10.pdf
“I talked to several people who were with the FBI during the actual repatriation. And they told me there was a lot of back-and-forth between the FBI and the Saudi Embassy. And the Saudi Embassy tried to get people to leave without even identifying them. The FBI succeeded in identifying people and going through their passports. But, in many cases, you had the FBI meeting people for the first time on the tarmac or on the planes themselves as they were departing. That was not time for a serious interview or a serious interrogation.” Interview with Craig Unger, CNN, September 4, 2003.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/index.php?id=18 [/B]

From the Snopes link as quoted by the New York Times:

While F.B.I. officials would not discuss details of the case, they said that in the days immediately after Sept. 11 bureau agents interviewed the adult relatives of Mr. bin Laden, members of one of Saudi Arabia's richest families, before the White House cleared them to leave the country. Mr. bin Laden is said to be estranged from his family, and many of his relatives have renounced his campaign against the United States.

"We did everything that needed to be done," said John Iannarelli, a bureau spokesman. "There's nothing to indicate that any of these people had any information that could have assisted us, and no one was accorded any additional courtesies that wouldn't have been accorded anyone else."

Exactly where is the confusion here?

 

[Grammatron]

I had to look up pithy, I'm wary of shortening my response to the point that I oversimplify away details that I think are important but here's a little snip from Moore's page on that part of the film:

The film puts this in perspective. Imagine President Clinton facilitating the exit of members of the McVeigh family out of the country following the Oklahoma City bombing. Or compare this treatment to the hundreds of people detained following the 9/11 attacks who were held without charges for months on end, who had no relationship to Osama bin Laden.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911facts/index.php?id=4

[size=-2]Edit for clarity.[/size]

I don't understand the example he brings up. If the McVeigh family was properly questioned so what if Clinton would have flown them out of the country? He brings it up as some kind of "shocking" comparison when in reality it doesn't seem odd at all. In fact if they paid for the flight like the Saudis did, they were free to leave the country like any other US citizen.