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$9/h minimum wage

Are you young? Just curious.

[Obi Wan]I am young, from a certain point of view.[/Obi Wan]

Skeptical Ginger said:
A gradual increase in wages and prices is not a sign of a bad economy, it's a healthy one. What we have here now is a growing imbalance between some people's wages and inflation. By not adjusting the minimum wage to keep up with the rest of the economy it's become too far out of balance.

If what you say is true why not set the wage to adjust by inflation/deflation like that one poster suggested?

Skeptical Ginger said:
This has many drawbacks, the largest one is the rest of us are subsidizing the labor costs of the Walmarts and the McDonalds while those corporations reap more than sufficient profits. While it appears that income is being shifted downward in the form of things like Medicaid and food stamps, income is really being shifted up in the form of corporate labor subsidies. The people who benefit encourage the false image that welfare recipients are all getting free stuff from the government, but the truth is corporations are getting supplemented labor costs paid to the working poor.

And that's not even mentioning the suppressed demand that is hurting the economy right now which increasing wages on the lowest incomes would help to correct.

I can honestly say I did not understand a word I just read.
 
[Obi Wan]I am young, from a certain point of view.[/Obi Wan]
:)

If what you say is true why not set the wage to adjust by inflation/deflation like that one poster suggested?
Politics.

I can honestly say I did not understand a word I just read.
Perhaps an example will help.

Walmart worker qualifies for Medicaid and food stamps despite working full time. Taxes pay for medical benefits instead of Walmart. Walmart's competitors pay employees' medical benefits.

Walmart has cheap products because the cost of the tax subsidized food stamps and medical care are not included in the price of the items for sale.

Walmart labor costs are essentially subsidized by the taxpayer. The end result, Walmart gets the government to subsidize their costs, more profits go to the owners.

It looks like those taxes were redistributed downward to the people getting government 'free stuff'.

In reality those taxes were distributed upward to the people benefitting from subsidized labor costs.

Walmart funds political message that taxes are going to freeloaders. It's smoke and mirrors. Taxes are going to the working poor while Walmart benefits.

Eventually Walmart's competitors have to adopt the same business model of an underpaid work force. The taxpayer subsidizes more and more big box stores. You buy that cheap laundry soap not knowing you are also paying an unseen tax that goes to the employees who need it to survive.
 
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Okay, snark and sarcasm aside, seriously?

Seriously, I think the real problem is not that we're paying unsilled laborers too little to do low-value work.

I think the real problem is that we're not doing enough to produce citizens who enter the workforce with actual valuable skills that are worth paying for.

I think that there's too much emphasis on college education, too much subsidizing of low-value liberal arts degrees, and not nearly enough of a trade school track for students. Our high-schoolers are producing too many fry clerks, too many indebted college students, and not nearly enough apprentice welders or entry-level IT support technicians.

Bingo. There are trades skill shortages in Australia now, and we are importing a lot of qualified tradespeople to work on mines and major infrastructure projects.

The reality now is that a competent tradesman will earn many times that of an Arts graduate. One of the problems we may face is that wages for people working in trades will increase substantially and fuel inflation. Inflation is well under control now, but skill shortage is a threat.
 
Do you have any evidence this is the case? Because I posted lots of studies that did not find the job loss claim was true.

You posted the link! :)

You had to follow through to the Saltman piece and then follow his links, which were to studies from economists from Cornell, American University, Cal-Irvine, MIT, Michigan State and the Federal Reserve. As some of the links went dead, I went and tracked them down http://www.nber.org/papers/w7519.pdf for you. Some of those apply to the OP of the thread, whether an increase in the minimum wage would be a boon to the poor, and some to your specific request above: do minimum wage increases (generally) cause unemployment?

Neumark and Washer 2006 p.166-7 said:
In sum, we view the literature – when read broadly and critically –as largely solidifying the view that minimum wages reduce employment of low-skilled workers, and as suggesting that the low-wage labor market can be reasonably approximated by the neoclassical competitive model. Of course, as we have argued elsewhere, the effect of the minimum wage on employment represents only one piece of the analysis necessary to assess whether minimum wages are a useful policy tool for improving the economic position of those at the bottom of the income distribution – which we believe is the ultimate goal of minimum wage policy. In particular, a more comprehensive review that includes the implications of the minimum wage for the levels and distributions of wages, employment and hours, incomes, and human capital accumulation, as well as consideration of alternative policies, is ultimately needed to assess whether raising the minimum wage is good economic policy. Given that the weight of the evidence points to disemployment effects, any argument in favor of pursuing higher minimum wages would appear to require that the benefits of a higher minimum wage outweigh the costs of the employment losses for those workers who are adversely affected.

The oddity is that even if there was no adverse effect on employment raising the minimum wage, it just so happens that most of the people working near or at the minimum wage don't actually come from poor households. They're often second and third jobs for households, with a disproportionate percentage of teenagers, and thus generally significantly above the poverty line already:

Sabia & Burkhauser 2010 abstract said:
Using data drawn from the March Current Population Survey, we find that state and federal minimum wage increases between 2003 and 2007 had no effect on state poverty rates. When we then simulate the effects of a proposed federal minimum wage increase from $7.25 to $9.50 per hour, we find that such an increase will be even more poorly targeted to the working poor than was the last federal increase from $5.15 to $7.25 per hour. Assuming no negative employment effects, only 11.3% of workers who will gain live in poor households, compared to 15.8% from the last increase. When we allow for negative employment effects, we find that the working poor face a disproportionate share of the job losses. Our results suggest that raising the federal minimum wage continues to be an inadequate way to help the working poor.
 
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Politics.

How lame.

SG said:
Perhaps an example will help.

Walmart worker qualifies for Medicaid and food stamps despite working full time. Taxes pay for medical benefits instead of Walmart. Walmart's competitors pay employees' medical benefits.

Walmart has cheap products because the cost of the tax subsidized food stamps and medical care are not included in the price of the items for sale.

Walmart labor costs are essentially subsidized by the taxpayer. The end result, Walmart gets the government to subsidize their costs, more profits go to the owners.

It looks like those taxes were redistributed downward to the people getting government 'free stuff'.

In reality those taxes were distributed upward to the people benefitting from subsidized labor costs.

Walmart funds political message that taxes are going to freeloaders. It's smoke and mirrors. Taxes are going to the working poor while Walmart benefits.

Eventually Walmart's competitors have to adopt the same business model of an underpaid work force. The taxpayer subsidizes more and more big box stores. You buy that cheap laundry soap not knowing you are also paying an unseen tax that goes to the employees who need it to survive.
Thanks for the clarification. I think I'll bow out now, this conversation is already past my pay grade.
 
Like many free market positions, I think the argument against minimum wage and to some extents against minimum wage increases ignore externalities.

People talk about all those jobs that employers and workers would be willing to have exist for a few bucks an hour that we're keeping from existing by having minimums.

To the extent that there are wages at which someone can be working full time and living in poverty, it creates costs that we all bear. We have a social safety net, so we all pay taxes to create programs that essentially subsidize low wage jobs.

Poverty is associated strongly with crime, lack of health insurance which raises the cost of health care for all of us and a laundry list of ills that cost us money and cost the health of the economy on a number of levels.

So to me, allowing companies to pay poverty level wages creates a system where we the public are essentially subsidizing the companies paying these low wages.

Human beings take a certain amount of value just to keep existing and they tend to create costs when operating below those value levels.

When market forces price labor below the level of these human maintenance costs, they don't make these costs disappear, they shift them to the rest of the country. In a first world country like ours, creating jobs below the poverty line is essentially stealing from taxpayers.
 
You posted the link! :)his[/i] links, which were to studies from economists from Cornell, American University, Cal-Irvine, MIT, Michigan State and the Federal Reserve. As some of the links went dead, [url="http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/16/opinion/saltsman-minimum-wage?iid=EL"]I went and tracked them down http://www.nber.org/papers/w7519.pdf for you. Some of those apply to the OP of the thread, whether an increase in the minimum wage would be a boon to the poor, and some to your specific request above: do minimum wage increases (generally) cause unemployment?postid=8999291#post8999291]
Try again[/url]. I posted one link with a lot of links
While I'm sure there must be a Laffer Curve principle involved, where is the evidence here that raising the minimum wage results in less jobs. Every study I've seen says that simply isn't true.

Research Papers on The Impact of the Minimum Wage on Jobs - The job loss myth

Employment and the Minimum Wage—Evidence from Recent State Labor Market Trends

The impact of a $9 minimum wage
A projected loss is an assertion. We have plenty of real examples that studies can be done on.

I'd love to see the counter evidence, not the GOP assertions like those in the CNNMoney article.
...Then followed through with another post discussing half the links from the link.
Guess some spoon feeding is in order.

MINIMUM WAGE EFFECTS ACROSS STATE BORDERS: ESTIMATES USING CONTIGUOUS COUNTIES
Quote:
For cross-state contiguous counties, we find strong earnings effects and no employment effects of minimum wage increases
Do Minimum Wages Really Reduce Teen Employment? Accounting for Heterogeneity and Selectivity in State Panel Data
Quote:
Put simply, our findings indicate that minimum wage increases—in the range that have been implemented in the United States—do not reduce employment among teens
The Wage and Employment Impact of Minimum‐Wage Laws in Three Cities
Quote:
The experience of smaller establishments in San Francisco and Santa Fe – whether they were initially below or just above the size exempted by the new laws – suggests that small establishments do not respond to minimum wages differently than larger firms. Small establishments below the size cutoffs in those cities did not experience systematic changes in employment. The same was true for small establishments just above the size cutoffs in these cities.
The Economic Effects of a Citywide Minimum Wage
Quote:
The authors find that the policy increased worker pay and compressed wage inequality, but did not create any detectable employment loss among affected restaurants.

Right winger's turn.
And I don't know which links were dead to you but none of the links in the link I opened were.

Here are the ones I didn't include in my follow up post:
http://www.ibrc.indiana.edu/ibr/2008/fall/article1.html
http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/FPISmallBusinessMinWage.pdf
http://emlab.berkeley.edu/~card/papers/njmin-aer.pdf
http://nelp.3cdn.net/02b725e73dc24e0644_0im6bkno9.pdf
http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp150/

The oddity is that even if there was no adverse effect on employment raising the minimum wage, it just so happens that most of the people working near or at the minimum wage don't actually come from poor households. They're often second and third jobs for households, with a disproportionate percentage of teenagers, and thus generally significantly above the poverty line already:
Where is this evidence? It's another one of the tiring propagated myths, people geting minimum wage don't really need the money.:rolleyes:
 
So if you don't mind, Kaosium, instead of falsely claiming I really haven't posted any evidence, how about just posting the studies that support your claims?
 
What nonsense, especially considering that only a small percentage of the workforce makes as little as minimum wage. Do you really think that the economy is built on the backs of high school students working part time jobs for gas and beer money? Or was your intention simply to argue against a fictional opponent?

By that counter argument, I'm to conclude that rising the minimum wage has no great impact on the national economy, as the jobs are done by people with no skills, resulting in no great benefit for the country.

So why not pay them more? If that results in fewer jobs at that level, then it's a no-loss situation.
 
So if you don't mind, Kaosium, instead of falsely claiming I really haven't posted any evidence, how about just posting the studies that support your claims?

I didn't 'falsely claim' anything about you not posting evidence, instead I directed you where you'd actually posted the evidence you appeared to be looking for: it was inside the links for the CNN piece you posted, but some of the links were dead and I dug them up for you.

Here's another one from a study of French and American minimum wage levels:

Abowd said:
Conclusion

We have shown that, mostly for persons 35 years old and under, in both France and the United States, movements in the real minimum wage are associated with significant employment effects, typically in the direction predicted by competitive labor market theory. In France, as the real SMIC increased over the period from 1981 to 1989, a certain share of young French workers had real wages that fell between the increasing consecutive real minimum wages. For workers in this situation, subsequent employment probabilities fell significantly. However, participation in employment promotion programs apparently shielded the youngest of these workers from some of the effects of the increasing real SMIC, and when this eligibility ended, the probability of subsequent nonemployment shot up dramatically. In the United States, a comparable effect from the real minimum wage moving in the opposite direction occurred, as many workers had market opportunity wage rates that were passed by the declining real minimum wage over the period from 1981 to 1987. American workers whose current real wage rate would have been below the real minimum wage in earlier periods were much less likely to have been employed in those earlier periods.
By comparing effects of minimum wage movements on workers employed at the minimum with those employed marginally above it, we identify the direct effects of the minimum wage, as distinct from heterogeneity across the wage distribution in labor force attachment and response to macroeconomic shocks. We suppose that workers in these two groups have identical labor supply behavior. We find that those employed between two real minima have much lower subsequent employment probabilities in France and much lower prior employment probabilities in the U.S. Across the population as whole, however, our results also suggest that youth in both countries and women in the U.S. are most affected by movements in the real minimum wage.

Even if the conditional elasticities in question are large, the at-risk groups (workers between two minimum wages) are relatively small, specifically, 1% of adult men and 2% of adult women in France, 6.5% of adult men and 11.6% of adult women in the U.S. Thus, overall unconditional elasticities tend to be much lower than the elasticities conditional on being between
the two minima. If the relevant policy question concerns the impact of the minimum wage on those individuals most likely to be affected by it (i.e. those currently paid at the minimum wage), our results suggest that there are much larger negative employment effects on this group, especially as compared to the group in the wage distribution marginally above the minimum, than other research has found.

Our results, which are based on direct data evidence from households, contrast sharply with the results of Card and Krueger (1994, 1998), which are based on direct data evidence from establishments. Recently, Kramarz and Philippon (1998) have analyzed the French data for 1990 to 1997, focusing carefully on the effects of targeted payroll tax subsidies on the total labor cost of minimum wage and low-wage workers. Their results, for a period of analysis that contains intervals in which the total labor cost of minimum wage workers rises and falls, are essentially the same as the ones we find here. A priori, there is no reason to prefer household analyses over those based on establishments; however, the strong similarity between the French and American results in our paper present a stronger challenge to the Card and Krueger results than would be the case for an analysis of either country taken by itself.
 
By that counter argument, I'm to conclude that rising the minimum wage has no great impact on the national economy, as the jobs are done by people with no skills, resulting in no great benefit for the country.

So why not pay them more? If that results in fewer jobs at that level, then it's a no-loss situation.

Because it deprives the employer of their right to decide what wages to offer.

It's easy enough for the President to say what the minimum wage should be, when he's talking about spending other people's money.

If raising the minimum wage doesn't magically fix the economy, why should your right to offer such and such a job at such at such a wage be the victim of government interference?
 
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I didn't 'falsely claim' anything about you not posting evidence, instead I directed you where you'd actually posted the evidence you appeared to be looking for: it was inside the links for the CNN piece you posted, but some of the links were dead and I dug them up for you.
I posted a dozen studies. What are you claiming, I only posted one distant link to a real study?

You have one rebuttal study (which I do appreciate):
Here's another one from a study of French and American minimum wage levels:
The abstract is not cut and paste-able so I have to summarize: they conclude that a 1% increase in the minimum wage results in a 1.3% decrease in a European man being employed at the minimum wage and a 0.4% decrease in the chance of and American man being employed at the minimum wage.

The authors conclude that is a significant effect. Explain to me how that is significant.
 
Because it deprives the employer of their right to decide what wages to offer.

It's easy enough for the President to say what the minimum wage should be, when he's talking about spending other people's money.

If raising the minimum wage doesn't magically fix the economy, why should your right to offer such and such a job at such at such a wage be the victim of government interference?
You are ignoring the fact minimum wage employers enjoy the taxpayer supported subsidies the employees who cannot live on such poor wages then require to survive.

Care to comment on that dilemma?
 
Where is this evidence? It's another one of the tiring propagated myths, people geting minimum wage don't really need the money.:rolleyes:

The link was embedded in the first words of the post.

Incidentally, I don't happen to think that minor or regionally targeted minimum wage increases have much negative effect, and can in fact have a benign one. However this would be the second significant minimum wage increase in less than a decade and it would be federal and is quite likely to have adverse effects on a number of regions. You apparently think differently, and I did note your allowance that at some level there ought to be a 'Laffer curve' effect, but I'm just curious why you wouldn't expect such a thing from a near-doubling of the minimum wage in roughly eight years?

If I also recall correctly you didn't think there would likely be any inflationary effect, so where do you think an increase of that level would be seen? Unemployment and price inflation (which is where Card and Kruger found it incidentally) are where one would expect a massive (and going from ~$5.10-~$9.00 in eight years is massive) increase like that to be borne, what effect would you expect?

Why not increase it to $12.00/hour, or $15.00? At what point would you expect there to be something indicating (nominal) labor costs may have nearly doubled in less than a decade for some industries? Where does this money come from?
 
Hire me! i work hard and love your television programs ,pubs and weather!:D


ETA: much of those so called "golden parachutes" is the company agreeing to purchase back the stock options held by the executive. It's usually not just severance cash.

I'm guessing they do that for tax purposes.
 
I'm guessing they do that for tax purposes.

In an act which will infuriate the free marketeers here, the Australian Government guarantees redundancy payments, pay in lieu of notice, annual leave and long service leave entitlements when companies go bankrupt. In this way, ordinary workers can recover from the train wreck of a failed business with some dignity. There was no public anger at this policy decision at all.

There are regular reviews of the minimum wage here, and apart from half-hearted bleating by employer associations, the public at large merely shrugs it's collective shoulder.
 
You are ignoring the fact minimum wage employers enjoy the taxpayer supported subsidies the employees who cannot live on such poor wages then require to survive.

Care to comment on that dilemma?

Who do you think pays the taxes that fund those subsidies?

If an employer pays 20% over minimum wage, will the taxman pass them by? No? Then why should they pay a single cent above what is required by law?
 
I posted a dozen studies. What are you claiming, I only posted one distant link to a real study?

I wasn't claiming anything, I was noting that if you followed the links in the CNN post you'd find what you were looking for, though some of the links had decayed and I found alternate sources. :)

You have one rebuttal study (which I do appreciate):
The abstract is not cut and paste-able so I have to summarize: they conclude that a 1% increase in the minimum wage results in a 1.3% decrease in a European man being employed at the minimum wage and a 0.4% decrease in the chance of and American man being employed at the minimum wage.

The authors conclude that is a significant effect. Explain to me how that is significant.

Imagine the increase is on the order of 75%...

At any rate that's not quite what they found. It was a study of two countries that had opposite real (inflation-adjusted) minimum wage movements during that period: the United States didn't increase it, thus it slid in real terms, while France increased it significantly and then assured that it would continue to. Now, however, the United States is behaving more like France did, notably in the Eighties, and is considering increasing the federal minimum wage again after a sizable hike in '07.

Incidentally, do you suppose that increase in the minimum wage of ~40% from '07 to '09 might have had anything to do with the (net) jobless recovery we've experienced?
 
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