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$9/h minimum wage

sir drinks-a-lot said:
Of course, if we didn't have welfare, alot of those people would decide that it was time for them to get to work and the productivity of the country would increase.
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Really, now?

Please show your evidence for this claim to fact.

Thank you in advance.

The irony of all that is that US productivity has increased hugely, but salary equivelents have not.
 
I have literally never even seen a full service gas station since I have been driving (23 years) I assume some still exist, but they are wayyy in the minority
 
Wirelight said:
I'm now on a moral soapbox because I simply think having a sustainable min wage is a good thing.
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You're trying to make this into a moral argument with those who disagree with your view as being against the poor. I am sure there are some people that dislike the poor, but it is really more a question of understanding how economic policy decisions and price fixing affect the market. I am concerned about the poor, and think the minimum wage is a bad idea. So do alot of Nobel prize winning economists. So, yeah, get off your moral high horse and address/understand the economic arguments.

It wouldn't take long for $1.00/hr to become status quo, would it? It's in every corporation/company's mandate to try to pay for the cheapest labour possible, especially in the "unskilled" labour market because there they can get away with it (at least easier) and with the people having no bargaining power and the government sitting back and letting capitalism "run free" the underclass would double in an instant, IMO.
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Of course the people have bargaining power, and of course the underclass wouldn't double in an instant. What kind of person could not get to the point where they can do something that is more valuable that $1/hour? Disabled? Mentally insane? The extremely obese?
 
jj said:
Really, now?

Please show your evidence for this claim to fact.

Thank you in advance.

The irony of all that is that US productivity has increased hugely, but salary equivelents have not.
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There are two propositions, both somewhat common sense. Which one is troubling you?
 
daenku32 said:
Ah, but if their wages only represent a very tiny amount of total wages earned in the country, then their increase would amount to pennies at most at the store. So they get a 20% raise, but only have to pay a penny or two extra for their stuff.
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You would think, but it never seems to work out that way.
 
StankApe said:
I have literally never even seen a full service gas station since I have been driving (23 years) I assume some still exist, but they are wayyy in the minority
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NJ still has them. As I recall on my last visit, a local was telling me its about the only place in the US that still has them.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
Of course, if we didn't have welfare, alot of those people would decide that it was time for them to get to work and the productivity of the country would increase. But, given the purchasing power of a dollar today I don't think you'd find too may willing to work for such a low wage. You could make more panhandling or dumpster diving, both of which are a bit more on the entrepreneurial side. We don't know what price would be set by the market for minimum wage - it would be lower if there was no welfare, but I doubt there would be many people working for $1 an hour.
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I admit that I don't have data on the incomes of panhandlers and dumpster divers in a post-welfare 1st world economy. But their wages would unlikely to be over $1/h because of the amount of competition for the scarce resources.
 
IMST said:
The unstated major premise that unemployment is voluntary?
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That's not a correct major premise of the argument, since you neglected to specify the modality - which is very important in this case.

But, anyways, since you're just trying to derail and avoid the conversation anyways, why don't you take your pedantry to daenku32, who was the first to make the claim in this thread? Is he on the wrong side of the argument you wish to derail?
 
CORed said:
Nearly all of them have. Most still have at least one cashier on duty to handle cash purchases or people whose cards won't work in the pump.
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And if you make it more expensive to employ that person, one option is to get rid of them altogether and operate a 100% automated system. My query was with the claim that gas station attendants would always be needed - I disagree, I think they are on the way out as more people move to card payments. At some point the percentage of cash sales will not justify paying a salary.

Alternatively the gas station becomes a corner shop with pumps attached - the fuel acting as a loss leader to get folk into the shop for impulse buys.
 
Jaggy Bunnet said:
And if you make it more expensive to employ that person, one option is to get rid of them altogether and operate a 100% automated system. My query was with the claim that gas station attendants would always be needed - I disagree, I think they are on the way out as more people move to card payments. At some point the percentage of cash sales will not justify paying a salary.

Alternatively the gas station becomes a corner shop with pumps attached - the fuel acting as a loss leader to get folk into the shop for impulse buys.
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Works for me. Most of my career has been implementing automated systems or more efficient systems so the company can get rid of low level employees.

The more they increase minimum wage, the more work I get
 
DrDave said:
Works for me. Most of my career has been implementing automated systems or more efficient systems so the company can get rid of low level employees.

The more they increase minimum wage, the more work I get
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I agree, although there are some jobs that are relatively immune to automation which would have made a better example - gas station attendant seemed a very odd choice.
 
Just so that you folks know, gas station attendants are there mostly to sell the goods in the store. We are long ways off from having automated stores. I know they've tried them, but we are awfully long ways off. Even in the areas where gas station attendants are paid more (not because they work harder than those that are paid minimum wage, but because of shortage of workers) the gas stations still look just the same.
 
daenku32 said:
I think the jobs themselves are fairly flexible. Most would just end up paying more. Gas station attendants for example, will always be needed. But now they would start at $9 rather than $7.25/h.

I think the benefits definitely outweigh the costs. A current minimum wage worker would get a 20% pay increase. But those wages are very teeny tiny portion of total wages paid in the country.

We used to have labor unions do this so that governments didn't need to get involved. But labor unions are dying.
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I think more businesses will end up automating jobs and eliminating them. For example, I was in Japan the other year and went to a restaurant. The menu was automated and you inserted either money or credit card and pushed a button to make your menu selection. A ticket came out and you handed the ticket to the chef who prepared the food. No need to have a waiter.

I could see McDonald's or other fast food places adopting this technology and eliminating jobs.
 
McDonald's already have the fast payment ordering in Europe. Several tills with automatic ordering and one person to look after them. Probably removes the need for 3 or 4 staff during busy periods.
 
DrDave said:
McDonald's already have the fast payment ordering in Europe. Several tills with automatic ordering and one person to look after them. Probably removes the need for 3 or 4 staff during busy periods.
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Also, alot of grocery stores here in SF are starting to have self-checkout lanes to replace checkout cashiers for people paying by credit card. I'm sure these automation trends will continue, and as the minimum wage rises, there will be more incentives for employers to adopt costlier automation strategies.
 
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