9/12 Tea Party Protests: Crowd Estimates?

Nate Silver over at FiveThirtyEight.com has a really good analysis on this...

Size Matters; So Do Lies
... But yesterday, someone told a real whopper. ABC News, citing the DC fire department, reported that between 60,000 and 70,000 people had attended the tea party rally at the Capitol. By the time this figure reached Michelle Malkin, however, it had been blown up to 2,000,000. There is a big difference, obviously, between 70,000 and 2,000,000. That's not a twofold or threefold exaggeration -- it's roughly a thirtyfold exaggeration.

The way this false estimate came into being is relatively simple: Matt Kibbe, the president of FreedomWorks, lied, claiming that ABC News had reported numbers of between 1.0 and 1.5 million when they never did anything of the sort. A few tweets later, the numbers had been exaggerated still further to 2 million. Kibbe wasn't "in error", as Malkin gently puts it. He lied. He did the equivalent of telling people that his penis is 53 inches long. ...

... Malkin herself did not lie; she merely repeated a lie. It does not particularly call into question her character. It does, however, call into question her judgment. The reason is that if there had in fact been 2 million protesters in Washington yesterday, there would have been no need to lie about it -- the magnitude of the protests would have been self-evident. I was in Washington for the inauguration, an event at which there really were almost 2 million people present -- and let me tell you, it was a Holy Mess. Hotels, charging double or treble their usual rates, were booked weeks in advance. Major stations on the Metro system were shut down for hours at a time. The National Guard was brought in. At least 3,000 people got stuck in a tunnel. Essentially the entirely of the National Mall, from the Capitol to the Washington Monument, was dotted with onlookers. Heaps of trash were left behind. The entire city was basically a warzone for a period of about 20 hours, from midnight through mid-evening.

The more I look at this, the more it seems to be (pardon the pun) a tempest in a teapot. ;)
 
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Well it's nice to know that Nate Silver believes that Kibbe's penis is roughly 1.77 inches long.
 
Just do a little back of the envelope calculation. As anyone can see in the video that's been linked on this forum of the marchers on Pennsylvania Avenue, the marchers were 40 to 50 (or more) abreast as they went up the street towards the Capital. Say they were *strolling* at just 2 miles per hour. Reports say the march was about 2 hours long. 2 miles per hour means that in 2 hours marchers could travel more than 21,000 feet. Now let's say there is an average of one line of 40-50 people every TEN feet throughout the march. That seems conservative. That would mean there were about 2100 * 40-50 people = 84000 - 105,000 people in the march alone. And of course not everyone who came participated in that march. Many could not walk that distance so they went direct to the mall. Many chose not to walk for other reasons (like small children). Many arrived late and missed the march itself. So by this simple estimate, the "tens of thousands" and 60-70 thousand estimates are nonsense.

Here are two different analyses that both yield a number in the hundreds of thousands. Go ahead, challenge the assumptions underlying these analyses. Or don't.

http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=21884

Analysis 1: This gives a range of 240,000 to 320,000 marchers down Pennsylvania Ave, and is based on the time-lapse march route video plus measurements of the route taken from Google Maps. The time-lapse sequence was taken from a webcam over Freedom Plaza at 14th St and E NW, looking ESE down Pennsylvania Avenue toward the Capitol. The time-lapse video is 41 seconds long (0-40), is labelled as covering 8 AM to 1130 AM on 9/12/09, and thus scales at just over five minutes real-time per second of video. The video shows the march starting out of Freedom Plaza at 17 seconds (~9:30 AM) with the tail end leaving the plaza at 36 seconds (~11:10 AM). Google Maps sat view, meanwhile, shows Pennsylvania Ave. to be just over 220 feet wide (eight traffic lanes plus sidewalks) along the march route, and the length of the march route from the exit of Freedom Square to where the road reaches the Capitol West Lawn to be just over 4400 feet. The video seems to indicate marchers filled both road and sidewalks for the entire march route for most of the time of the march, FWIW.

The video does not seem to provide enough resolution, spatial or time, to directly measure the rate of advance of the march. The speed with which the route initially fills up shouldn’t be used (the fast ones always end up out front) nor the speed with which it empties (the slow ones are at the back). I’ll make the assumption here that the march averaged 1 mph - large dense peaceable crowds tend to have much internal friction and move slowly, 1-2 mph in my experience; I think 1 mph is mildly conservative.

So we know the crowd took ~100 minutes to march past the east end of Freedom Square on a route ~220 feet wide, and we’re assuming they averaged a 1 mph rate of advance. That would make the entire crowd about 8800 feet long by 220 feet wide (had the route of march actually been that long). In other words, the crowd occupied about 1.94 million square feet at their march density, at an assumed march speed of 1 mph.

We now need a second assumption: how tightly packed the crowd was as they marched.

I estimate that a really tightly jammed crowd (stage-front at a concert) takes about two square feet per person. A dense elbow-to-elbow crowd on the move is three to four square feet per person, and a polite relaxed crowd on the move is six or more square feet per person. This marching crowd seemed very densely packed in the overhead video, but from various closeups I’ve seen it seemed more like 6-8 square feet per person. 1.94 million square feet divided by six square feet per marcher gives about 320,000 marchers; divided by 8 gives about 240,000 marchers.

To sum up, the width of the march route and the time for the march to pass one point are known. The two main assumptions in this crowd estimate are the average speed of the march and the average spacing of the marchers. 1 mph and 6-8 square feet per person seem mildly conservative estimates; based on those we get a crowd size of multiple hundreds of thousands.

Note too that this march-route estimate does not cover anyone who arrived at the march destination by other routes.

Analysis 2: This one gives a range of 330,000 to 500,000 demonstrators in front of the Capitol, and is based on the NYT description of the crowd (”A sea of protesters filled the west lawn of the Capitol and spilled onto the National Mall) plus the first photo in the story at the Daily Mail, showing the Capitol West Lawn during the protest, plus measurements taken from Google Maps sat view of the area.

The overall West Lawn of the Capitol area is a square just over 1500 feet on a side. Between the Reflecting Pool, the Botanic Gardens building, and various other obstructions, I estimate about 75% of that area is actually available for a crowd. That’s comes out to about 1.7m square feet.

The National Mall, meanwhile, consists of eight squares of about 600 by 600 feet each, (about 360,000 square feet each) in a line west to the Washington Monument. I will assume for this analysis that the crowd described by the NYT extended only to the first of these eight blocks, giving us 1.7m + 360K square feet, or about 2 million square feet of crowd.

Crowds at rest take less room than crowds on the move; I therefore assume a range of 4 to 6 square feet per person in this crowd. The above-pointered picture in the Daily Mail seems to support the 4 square feet end of this range, but it was taken from just east of the Reflecting Pond and shows the front portion of the crowd - the crowd density likely drops further back. However, there is also uncertainty about just how far back the crowd goes - at least one attendee claimed in a blog comment that the crowd described by the NYT extended the entire length of the Mall. Applying the 4 to 6 square foot range to the West Lawn plus first block of Mall area seems reasonable for now, absent better data. This gives us an estimated 330,000 to 500,000 demonstrators in front of the Capitol yesterday.

Obviously there are significant error bands in both of these estimates. There’s also room for better data; in particular I’d be interested in any marchers who accurately timed their march from leaving Freedom Square to first arriving at 3rd St where the West Lawn starts, as well as any more info on how far back along the Mall the crowd extended and how dense the crowd was.

I think it’s already very clear, however, that “hundreds of thousands” is the correct description of the size of the 9/12/09 DC protest.
 
Where's the corroborating evidence of a crowd that size?

Where is all the trash? How many extra cops needed to come on duty to handle a crowd that size? How many hotels were booked solid? What was parking like? What was traffic in the area like? How many buses were used? How clogged was public transit?

There has just not been any corroborating evidence that there was a crowd of several hundred thousand. Hell, the Teabaggers couldn't even fill up one section of the mall past the Capitol.
 
Since BAC is essentially saying the same thing he did before:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5106581&postcount=143

The points to make:
1. One data source, no time marks on it.
2. Other data sources would be helpful.
3. The perspective and data compression makes it very hard to judge the density as the march moves.

Yes we have one assembly area that seems to have a onstant density, but the density of the march itself is another issue, there appear to be a number of low density patches that move down the street, they could be compression artifacts.
ETA
Here is a very non-random sample of pictures of the march:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5105429&postcount=123
 
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Beachooser is just making up stuff as usual.

Hes actually not making it up- the one he referenced just isnt a pre planned one. Engineering firms sometimes get called in ( in advance usually by a party that wants the information) and we do crowd estimates for events.

Unless someone has a closed event with headcounts- all it is is a very "reasonable" estimate ( under the best of circumstances)

( I'm doing this from memory and dont have the material over here)

Its gathered from plot plans,photogrammetry of the general area and a whole lot of other factors.

Its all a SWAG but its usually good enough for planning purposes

If I remember right its like 3 feet square for normal crowds and 2 feet for packed ones

You take the assembly area(s) and estimate at static points
 
What I find interesting about the whole thing is that maybe 200K show up for the teabag rally (I suspect it is much lower), and Fox goes overtime arguing that it shows that the nation is fed-up with Obama, that there is a popular revolt on-going in this country and the masses have to be heard...their voices are those of legitimate American patriots worried for the future of their country. Now, remember back to some of the anti-war protests during the Bush Administration which got similar if not larger numbers. Now, I'm no fan of ANSWR, and would agree with commentators at the time who suggested that some of those marching were simply wing-nut crazy lefties...but note the difference, similar size crowds and Fox takes one as a serious comment on Obama and the other as a dismissable amalgum of sad sacks and not a serious commentary on the policies of Bush.

CNN -- crap though it is -- gets it right when it says Fox distorts, not reports.

Ok, I know it is the lefty Huffpost, but Fox reporter ginning up crowd for camera shot:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/19/fox-news-producer-caught_n_292529.html
 
Little Green Footballs is suggesting somewhere around 70,000 based on metrorail figures.

Tim Blair thinks it is several hundred thousand also based on metrorail figures and an estimate from the photos.
 

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