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9/11 Physics from Non-Experts

I hear ya...and agree. My understanding of mechanical physics is college 1st-2nd year level, but it is also over a decade since I had to use it.

If any of the mechanical engineers amongst us would care to show us, through simplified calculations, why the towers collapsed via the top portion coming atop the bottom, it would be most helpful.

TAM:)

Just how many times do you want it.

Or is it that you do not wish to know?
 
"The ground pushes up", wow that's just stupid. :jaw-dropp
Uhh, not really. It is perhaps an unfortunate wording, but the ground provides the equal and opposite force that keeps a building from sinking in. If you placed it on water, it would sink in until the "push" from the water pressure on the bottom was equal to it's weight (ignoring that buildings are not watertight, etc.). So, on any building, the ground provides am upward "push" equal to the weight of the building. In fact, it also does the same for you.

Hans
 
Uhh, not really. It is perhaps an unfortunate wording, but the ground provides the equal and opposite force that keeps a building from sinking in. If you placed it on water, it would sink in until the "push" from the water pressure on the bottom was equal to it's weight (ignoring that buildings are not watertight, etc.). So, on any building, the ground provides am upward "push" equal to the weight of the building. In fact, it also does the same for you.

Hans



He's talking about "normal force", and although "the ground pushes up" is how it's explained to high school students, that's not really what it is. It's essentially the force delivered by a surface that prevents an object resting on that surface from penetrating through it.

Thus in the theoretical case of the upper section of the WTC falling on the lower section and stopping, it's the normal force of the upper surface of the lower section which is "pushing up" against the upper section to produce a net force of zero. Not the ground.

(Of course when the shock wave travels down through the steel to the ground, there's then another normal force from the ground surface acting on the bottom surface of the lower intact section to produce another net force of zero.)

-Gumboot
 
I think the guy in the video just really enjoyed hearing himself say "Force=Net zero". Must make him feel like he understands physics. Not only are there so many other factors that he leaves unaccounted for, he just simply has no grasp of the very basic concepts of physics. I have a feeling that he is the loner at his school and he has became wrapped around conspiracy theories because the people that agree with him make him feel accepted. Its sad really.


Someone failed physics

In all of your classes someone failed
 
He's talking about "normal force", and although "the ground pushes up" is how it's explained to high school students, that's not really what it is. It's essentially the force delivered by a surface that prevents an object resting on that surface from penetrating through it.

Oh, I'm not definding the chap in the video (does anybody know who he is?), I'm just pointing out that, in all fairness, saying that the ground pushes up, while a rather naive way to word it, is not incorrect.

Thus in the theoretical case of the upper section of the WTC falling on the lower section and stopping, it's the normal force of the upper surface of the lower section which is "pushing up" against the upper section to produce a net force of zero. Not the ground.

Oh, eventually, the force would be transferred to the ground. However, this whole line of argueing is indeed silly: IF the lower portion of the building had been strong enough to stop the top part, then the buildings would not have collapsed. And what exactly does that prove? It proves that the lower part of the building was not that strong. No more, no less.

(Of course when the shock wave travels down through the steel to the ground, there's then another normal force from the ground surface acting on the bottom surface of the lower intact section to produce another net force of zero.)

Right.

Hans
 
Oh, eventually, the force would be transferred to the ground. However, this whole line of argueing is indeed silly: IF the lower portion of the building had been strong enough to stop the top part, then the buildings would not have collapsed. And what exactly does that prove? It proves that the lower part of the building was not that strong. No more, no less.



He seems to think that some how a surface's normal force is capable of changing directly proportional to the force acting on it... :faint:

-Gumboot
 
Oh, the hypocrisy

Too bad this post reveals an inability to explain the content. Cut and paste is easy, but explanations are obviously incredibly challenging when engineering is not the posters area of expertise.

I think the "mathematical dummy" part was easy to understand and I have to agree with that conclusion.

(ahem)

And this somehow invalidates the argument?

It only proves content means nothing and that this is all just a game to you.

MM

So... what was that you said about Gravy's explanations, again?
 
He seems to think that some how a surface's normal force is capable of changing directly proportional to the force acting on it... :faint:

-Gumboot

Which is exactly where the "ground pushs up" statement breaks down as MRC Hans points out.

The Earth's surface has an ability to resist the force on exerted by objects on it. This capability is related to the strength of the particular surface. A sand base would in no way be able to support the towers but granite bedrock can.

If the upward force exerted by the bedrock was always equivalent to the force exerted by the completed tower then any attempt to build the tower would have resulted in the partially completed tower accelerating into the air since that force would be greater than the force due to the mass of the partially completed tower. In fact if this were the case then as the tower did collapse and shed mass to the side the tower should have rose upwards.

The ability to resist the force of mass of objects on the surface of the Earth can indeed be overcome. Just put enough mass on one spot and it will sink into the bedrock but that would be a very large mass.

However this has no bearing on the collapse since the bedrock did not fail. The steel columns failed. they have a much lesser ability to resist the force of the mass on them. They are designed to take the force due to the gravity load of the portion of the building above them. There was another force involved in the collapse though, the impulse of the falling upper section. (actually there were a lot of ways the energy of the falling mass was used, this is one) The mass came down and acheived a certain velocity and thus a certain value of momentum. It acted upon the columns below which slowed the upper section by some degree. The force exerted on the columns would be the change in momentum divided by the time it took to reduce that momentum PLUS the force due to gravity.
I don't recall where I read it but it had been calculated that the columns would have deflected enough to snap only a few milliseconds after being hit by the falling mass that would be when the loss of momentum would stop.
 
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I see myriad explained things a lot better than I did. That's what i get for not reading the entire thread.

MM writes:
Too bad this post reveals an inability to explain the content. Cut and paste is easy, but explanations are obviously incredibly challenging when engineering is not the posters area of expertise.

I think the "mathematical dummy" part was easy to understand and I have to agree with that conclusion.

So did you read through Greening's paper yet MM?
Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
Inappropriate remark removed.
Have you the mathematical ability to follow it? Marks is stating that with his relatively(that's relative to Greening's)mathematical knowledge he was still able to follow greening's calculations. Can you say the same? If so then please, by all means point out all the errors in math that Greening made and how they would be significant in determining the process of collapse. Then you can move on to B & Z's paper and do the same.

In fact you can come up with your own paper explaining when and where additional damage had to be inflicted on the buildings by incendiary heating and/or explosives in order to have the buildings collapse as they did.
 
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Let me raise a somewhat different point that these guys seem to be missing. Constant motion is a sign of NO external force entering the system. Last time I checked wasn't that an extremely basic principle of physics?

I think its the idea something in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by an outside force.
 
the velocity of an object will not change until acted upon by an external force.

Thus an object at rest remains at rest (velocity = 0), in relation to the frame of reference in which the object resides.

Its one of Newton's laws of motion.
 
Has anyone suggested to this guy that he put a large physics text book on the top of his head, note the force due to gravity that it displays. Then take that book and suspend it 3 inches above his head then release it to drop onto his head and note the difference in the force he feels between that and the staic book on his head. Now he can explain why the force of the dropping book was so much greater than that of the dropped book.

Yes, momentum is not force but a change in momentum over time IS a force.
 
I've left a comment on his first video.

me said:
In your opening example of the ball dropping to the ground. Shouldn't the ball bounce?

How would you explain a bouncing ball in terms of your equal and opposing forces? Surely the ball should only have enough energy to fall?

Even though it's fairly subtle, I expect it'll be deleted (especially if he's reading this thread). Maybe it'll be a niggle that sticks with him and he gives some thought at a later date, when his ego is no longer involved.

I certainly believed a lot of stupid things in my teenage years. And I was sure I knew it all as well.
 
Just how many times do you want it.

Or is it that you do not wish to know?

lol...I was adding my desire, along with gumboots, to have the science of it explained if possible, in relatively simplified Physics calculations...lol

I know it has probably been done before, but I havent seen it, although in this thread, it has been, somewhat, done...

TAM:)
 
This has got to be the best of the Stundie, for May:

Yandros42 said:
400 people have seen this video. 5 disagree enough to attempt to argue their points. 4 of those people are now blocked, as they had a fair go (20+ posts) and couldn't debunk me. I want to let some others have a go. That makes the deniers, or coincidentalists, approximately 1.25% of the youtube population, as depicted by the sample which has watched this video.

You are in the minority. Understand this. MINORITY. Public opinion IS AGINST YOU.

Not only is he bad at physics, but he fails at statistics as well.
 
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However this has no bearing on the collapse since the bedrock did not fail. The steel columns failed. they have a much lesser ability to resist the force of the mass on them. They are designed to take the force due to the gravity load of the portion of the building above them. There was another force involved in the collapse though, the impulse of the falling upper section. (actually there were a lot of ways the energy of the falling mass was used, this is one) The mass came down and acheived a certain velocity and thus a certain value of momentum. It acted upon the columns below which slowed the upper section by some degree. The force exerted on the columns would be the change in momentum divided by the time it took to reduce that.



Actually, watching the collapse, I suspect very little impact force was applied directly to the columns. I think that's one of the problems with the design that resulted in such a catastrophic collapse.

By nature of gravity, most of the collapsing mass fell inside the building's footprint (it had to). This means it was inside the exterior columns. We can see evidence of this in the fact that the exterior columns peel outwards as the collapse occurs. That means, immediately, half the mass-supporting structure is removed from the equation.

That leaves the core columns, but as we know the building twisted as it fell. That makes it highly unlikely that the core columns lined up.

Instead, the force of collapse was left on the light weight truss systems.

Designers of the WTC talked about aircraft impacts being like a pencil pushed through a mosquito net. I think that's a good analogy for what happened in the collapse. The lower core columns would easily punch through the floor trusses in the upper section, and the upper core columns would easily punch through the floor trusses in the lower section.

Consider the below very simplified collapse model:



In this model, what is actually taking the force of the collapse? The columns?

-Gumboot
 
I think its the idea something in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by an outside force.
In other words constant motion is a sign that there was NO external force. Read your own post backwards and you'll see.
 
the velocity of an object will not change until acted upon by an external force.

Thus an object at rest remains at rest (velocity = 0), in relation to the frame of reference in which the object resides.

Its one of Newton's laws of motion.
Correct and constant motion denotes nO external force. For example, say you go outsomewhere in space and you shoot a bullet with a muzzle velocity of say 3000 fps. If no outside force acts upon it, it will still be going 3000 fps in a year, decade, century and so on. Constant motion is a sign of no external force. Why do some people have such a hard time grasping that?
 
Has anyone suggested to this guy that he put a large physics text book on the top of his head, note the force due to gravity that it displays. Then take that book and suspend it 3 inches above his head then release it to drop onto his head and note the difference in the force he feels between that and the staic book on his head. Now he can explain why the force of the dropping book was so much greater than that of the dropped book.

Yes, momentum is not force but a change in momentum over time IS a force.
They (by they I mean the woo and the other truthers that believe this nonsense) think that the normal force is the be all and end all to woogic™.
 

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