9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[dudalb]

The way things are going, 9/11 Investigator will be talking to himself in this thread in a week or so.

 

[Kurse]

I've got tree fiddy on two ignores in two pages.

Damn loch ness monsta!!

 

[240-185]

Wow, this thread is still alive...

Let me guess, has 9/11-I still plenty of bare assertions, evidence-free claims and tries to make his own vision of events by ignoring some facts and stressing on other irrelevant ones?

 

[Kurse]

Wow, this thread is still alive...

Let me guess, has 9/11-I still plenty of bare assertions, evidence-free claims and tries to make his own vision of events by ignoring some facts and stressing on other irrelevant ones?

You got it. He has also Ignored Me, Pure_Argent, and Toke. Apparently he can't handle us. =/

 

[sonofgloin]

I was trying to see if the North Korean political education of prisioners in the Korean war had its origins in Soviet political education of German prisoners. I got nowhere. )

Did you look at the Chinese, N Korea probably took a leaf out of their book.

 

[Uzzy]

You argue that Hoess was tortured, yet even if he was, why does his testimony broadly match up with the testimony of men like Pery Broad?

 

[TSR]

You argue that Hoess was tortured, yet even if he was, why does his testimony broadly match up with the testimony of men like Pery Broad?

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Not to mention the fact that pretty much the only way we know Hoess was tortured is...




that Hoess wrote that he was.
.

 

[Nonpareil]

Wow, this thread is still alive...

Let me guess, has 9/11-I still plenty of bare assertions, evidence-free claims and tries to make his own vision of events by ignoring some facts and stressing on other irrelevant ones?

Pretty much, except that you forgot to mention his constant ad hominem attacks.

 

[Toke]

The way things are going, 9/11 Investigator will be talking to himself in this thread in a week or so.

That is his only chance of "victory", a tread with nobody left to oppose his gibberish.

 

[Simon39759]

This is a bit weird but isn't Wolzek a person's second name like "Smith". I'm wondering if it is german nomaclature like the "Todt" organisation or Kampgruppe "Piper" where he is using the name of someone from the earlier camp's organisation rather than its location. I guess that is a research issue.

It is, indeed, a very common last name, from what I saw (I don't speak Polish).
There is also a town named Wolzcek East of Lublin, just a few miles South from Sobibor, so, Sobibor being a tiny town, it is possible that the prisoners would have been 'on the line toward Wolzcek' until the last bifurcation.
I don't know, I don't really have any good idea where the error comes from, but, heh, Hoss was a Nazi, so we already know there was something wrong with his brain.

You got it. He has also Ignored Me, Pure_Argent, and Toke. Apparently he can't handle us. =/

HE CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

The front line troops were liberators but the political commisars that followed scoured the refugee camps forcing the citizens of the states they ruled back to Russia. For many it was a trans Siberian adventure in the ghulags for being so unpatriotic as to be captured. Now there was a dictator,Joe Stalin out dictated Adolf every day of the week and Adolf knew it.

Actually, most of the Western Jews were freed and send back home after the war or left alone to go back on their own.
No real point for Stalin to piss-off the Western powers over the few victims that the zealous Nazi missed.

Also, a lot of the camps were evacuated toward Germany before the Soviet approach and that's where they were finally freed. They were already quite close from the Western lines, closer from them, in fact, than from the commissars.

 

[Nonpareil]

HE CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

I find it incredibly entertaining, as well, that he ignored me because I "took up too much time for too little content". He never even bothered to respond to any of my posts.

 

[9/11-investigator]

yes, if millions of Jews were settled in Russia by the Nazis, where are these communities?

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Hilsenrath

Hilsenrath was born in Leipzig. In 1938 his mother escaped with her child to Siret (Sereth), in Romanian Bukovina, where they enjoyed a respite from persecution. At the time that he should have received an entrance card to higher education, he and his mother were interned in the ghetto of Cernăuţi (Czernowitz).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernivtsi

Chernivtsi (Ukrainian: Чернівці; German: Czernowitz; Romanian: Cernăuţi; Russian: Черновцы; see also other names) is the administrative center of Chernivtsi Oblast (province) in western Ukraine.

Map:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cherniwzi-Ukraine-Map.png

In 1944, when Axis forces were driven out by the Red Army, the city was re-incorporated in the Ukrainian SSR. Over the following years, most of the Jews left for Israel;

I am afraid my opponents will have some explaining to do. I thought that the story was that Jews from Leipzig were exterminated in so-called death-camps. Now it turns out that at least some (all?) were merely deported to the East, if they could not be used in the war effort, and then moved to Israel where they could carry out a Final Solution (which means deportation) of their own at the expense of the Palestinians.

 

[Nonpareil]

I am afraid my opponents will have some explaining to do. I thought that the story was that Jews from Leipzig were exterminated in so-called death-camps. Now it turns out that at least some (all?) were merely deported to the East, if they could not be used in the war effort, and then moved to Israel where they could carry out a Final Solution (which means deportation) of their own at the expense of the Palestinians.

No.

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Hilsenrath

Hilsenrath was born in Leipzig. In 1938 his mother escaped with her child to Siret (Sereth), in Romanian Bukovina, where they enjoyed a respite from persecution. At the time that he should have received an entrance card to higher education, he and his mother were interned in the ghetto of Cernăuţi (Czernowitz).

Self-owned.

 

[Simon39759]

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Hilsenrath

Hilsenrath was born in Leipzig. In 1938 his mother escaped with her child to Siret (Sereth), in Romanian Bukovina, where they enjoyed a respite from persecution. At the time that he should have received an entrance card to higher education, he and his mother were interned in the ghetto of Cernăuţi (Czernowitz).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernivtsi

Chernivtsi (Ukrainian: Чернівці; German: Czernowitz; Romanian: Cernăuţi; Russian: Черновцы; see also other names) is the administrative center of Chernivtsi Oblast (province) in western Ukraine.

Map:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cherniwzi-Ukraine-Map.png

In 1944, when Axis forces were driven out by the Red Army, the city was re-incorporated in the Ukrainian SSR. Over the following years, most of the Jews left for Israel;

I am afraid my opponents will have some explaining to do. I thought that the story was that Jews from Leipzig were exterminated in so-called death-camps. Now it turns out that at least some (all?) were merely deported to the East, if they could not be used in the war effort, and then moved to Israel where they could carry out a Final Solution (which means deportation) of their own at the expense of the Palestinians.

You realize, of course, that the area was never under the jurisdiction by your Nazis friend but by the Romanians?
Because, you are quite fond of arrogantly pointing the mistakes in other poster, such as Pure-Argent, but that'd be quite a big misunderstanding on your part.


None the less, the Romanians had their own version of the Holocaust, I am not as familiar with it was with the (how so very) real German-made one, but it seems like the policy was less purposeful and systematic in its extermination, although the final result was often similar.
Basically, it seems like the Romanian version of the Holocaust stayed at the level the German's one was before October 1941- mid-1942 when Aktion Reinhard started and the Wannsee conference was held.

Here is what Wiki has to say on the subject:

Many Jews were deported to Transnistria from Bessarabia and Bukovina. During the period 1941–1944, 200,000 Roma people and Jews became victims of the Romanian occupation of Transnistria. Not being Romanian territory, Transnistria was used as a killing field for the extermination of Jews. Survivors say that in comparison with the Holocaust of Nazi Germany, where deportations were carefully planned, the Romanian government did not prepare to house thousands of people in Transnistria, where the deportees stayed. The people were instead placed in crude barracks without running water, electricity or latrines. Those who could not walk were simply left to die.

In Odessa, between 80,000 and 90,000 of the city's roughly 180,000 Jews remained at the time the Germans and Romanians captured the city on October 16, 1941. Six days later, a bomb exploded in the Romanian military headquarters in Odessa, prompting a massacre of Jews; many were burned alive. In October and November 1941 alone, Romanian troops in Odessa killed about 30,000 Jews. Transnistria was the site of two concentration camps and several de facto ghettos (which the Romanian wartime government referred to as "colonies"). In addition, most of the remaining Jews in Bessarabia (84,000 of 105,000) and northern Bukovina (36,000 of 60,000) were herded into these as well. The Holocaust Encyclopedia (United States Holocaust Memorial Museum) writes that "Among the most notorious of these ghettos… was Bogdanovka, on the west bank of the Bug River… In December 1941, Romanian troops, together with Ukrainian auxiliaries, massacred almost all the Jews in Bogdanovka; shootings continued for more than a week." Similar events occurred at the Domanevka and Akhmetchetkha camps, and (quoting the same source) "typhus-devastated Jews were crowded into the 'colony' in Mohyliv-Podilskyi." Other camps, also with very high death rates, were at Pechora and Vapniarka, the latter reserved for Jewish political prisoners deported from Romania proper. Many Jews died of exposure, starvation, or disease during the deportations to Transnistria or after arrival. Others were murdered by Romanian or German units, either in Transnistria or after being driven across the Bug River into the German-occupied Ukraine. Most of the Jews who were sent to the camps in Transnistria never returned. Those who survived, around 70,000, returned to Romania in 1945 to find that they had lost their houses.

Even for the general population, food in Transnistria was very scarce, through lack of Romanian planning. According to one survivor's account, people would gather outside a slaughterhouse and wait for scraps of meat, skin and bones to be thrown out of the slaughterhouse after the cleaning each morning. He remembers that they were fighting for the bones "just like dogs would" and that people were starving to death. Among the survivors were Liviu Librescu and Norman Manea.

 

[9/11-investigator]

You realize, of course, that the area was never under the jurisdiction by your Nazis friend but by the Romanians?
Because, you are quite fond of arrogantly pointing the mistakes in other poster, such as Pure-Argent, but that'd be quite a big misunderstanding on your part.

I see your point. I read this in the article: "In 1944, when Axis forces were driven out by the Red Army", concluding that the area was under German rule all the time, not realizing that Romanians were part of the Axis as well and that they occupied the place. So you are right that this can not serve as an example of a ghetto beyond the infamous 6 Polish camps used by the Germans to resettle Jews. My mistake.

 

[Nonpareil]

Oh, good. We're making progress.

 

[9/11-investigator]

While investi-googling the matter I came across this book that discusses the same theme: the resettling by the Jews in the newly conquered territories in the Soviet Union:

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/tsbc/

Steffen Werner

The Second Babylonian Captivity

The Fate of the Jews
in eastern Europe since 1941

I never heard of it before, I don't know what to make of it and I don't endorse it. I just want to keep a link to it here for sake of the discussion.

 

[Ignorantbystander]

I see your point. I read this in the article: "In 1944, when Axis forces were driven out by the Red Army", concluding that the area was under German rule all the time, not realizing that Romanians were part of the Axis as well and that they occupied the place. So you are right that this can not serve as an example of a ghetto beyond the infamous 6 Polish camps used by the Germans to reschettle Jews. My mistake.

Like every time when you stray away from copy/paste-ing good old denier claims, you go flat on your face.
You might consider educating yourself about the holocaust before defending the revisionist stance.

And you still haven't answered why you showed the delousing chamber as the 'marketed' homocidal gas chamber, while this was obviously wrong. Known to anybody with just minor knowledge of Auschwitz-Birkenau. And for sure known by anybody who visited the place and paid a little attention.

Let me guess, you visited Auschwitz, but missed Birkenau.
Nothing to be ashamed of though ,it happened to me on my first visit (long time ago)and it happened to many others.
The reason is that the Poles considered Auschwitz more as a monument for their suffering instead of that of the Jews. Many roadsigns lead to Auschwitz (museum), only a few to Birkenau. And still the emphasis is more on Auschwitz I then on Birkenau as I was told by a Polish guide last year when I was walking with her in a nearly deserted Birkenau while Auschwitz was crowded with tourists.
The same was the case with Sobibor and Belzec. Sobibor's former monument mentioned Poles, not Jews. And Belzec was more/less neglected.
This contradicts the denier claim that Poles and Russians like to plug the Jewisch holocaust. No wonder ,since they had their own.

 

[9/11-investigator]

As an aside to our Treblinka discussion I want to safeguard this picture of a model made by a survivor of the camp:

http://www.nafcash.com/nafcash_files/image001.jpg

Observe how small the camp is and that it should be extremely easy to establish with forensic means whether or not once in this location 870,000 people were buried here, dug up, burned and the remains buried again. Not very likely that Krege could have made many mistakes while doing his GPR research.

“Eyewitness” Yankel Wiernik’s model of the phantom “huge mass graves” of Treblinka that allegedly contain;

Millions of pounds of bone fragments, tens of millions of teeth and tens of thousands of bullets and shell casings.

http://www.nafcash.com/

 

[TSR]

As an aside to our Treblinka discussion I want to safeguard this picture of a model made by a survivor of the camp:

.
Yeah - see all those buildings? Any proof that they were built on the surface, with no foundations? See all those poles for the fences -- those all had little platforms they stood on?

No?


Then your own source shows the kind of soil disturbance the non-existent Krege Report states never occurred.
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Observe how small the camp is and that it should be extremely easy to establish with forensic means whether or not once in this location 870,000 people were buried here, dug up, burned and the remains buried again. Not very likely that Krege could have made many mistakes while doing his GPR research.

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Really? What was Krege's experience with the use of GPR and interpreting its results, again? Surely you can point to other instances where his intimate knowledge of the subtlties of this tool can be demonstrated?

I'll wait right here.
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