9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Trojan]

From the Treblinka book, page 257:

According to Radio Moscow, several thousand French Jews were resettled in the Ukraine. In its issue Number 71 of April 1944, the Jewish underground
paper Notre Voix had the following news to report:

I thought you did not trust Russian sources -- oh wait, I see, when they say something you like, its trustworthy, when you do not like what they say, you ignore it.

Now we see how it works.

Kind of like putting your fingers in your ears when the big kids pick on you

So ok, lets say you found several thousand French Jews -- still about 5,992,000 to go

Report back as you progress forward

Should I repost the details for the Dutch Jews --- which you avoided the last time I posted it?

 

[Trojan]

Why would you exterminate a slave resource in a situation where you are outnumbered by Soviets, Americans and the like?

Why would you feed "worthless eaters" to coin a phrase, when your resources were limited? Same reason Hitler did not want to capture Leningrad outright, he wanted to starve it into submission, watch a million die, relieved of the burden to feed the huddled masses.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Disinformation and propaganda grows more difficult to debunk as time moves from the event.

Wise words that could easily be applied to the 'holocaust'.

You must consider on the ground realities such as most European cities had a vibrant Jewish citizenry that generally like all ethnic groups outside wherever they consider their homeland to be, lived in enclaves A jewish quarter so to speak, but they were empty after 45.

Nobody denies the deportations.

My relatives who as children and teens lived in these places told me that they all had seen the round up of Jews by the Auxiliary Police, they massacred them just miles from their villages, and after that they did not see any Jews other than the odd survivor, usually children and teens.

Your relatives, as far as they are not dyed in the wool communists will tell you that the brief Soviet occupation of the Baltics before Barbarossa was extremely brutal and nationalist Balts were all too willing to take revenge on those local elements who had been active enablers of that regime: the Jews.

Before the war the NAZI's considered deporting the Jews to Madagascar, and Eichman and the boys knocked it back on ligistical grounds, there was no sentiment to destroy the Jew's, just move them out of the Reichs backyard.

That's true.

Then the war came and the political motivation to free Europe from Jewish communities did not diminish, so the decision was made to utilize them as a resourse and destroy the rest immediately, or as soon as practical.

Used as a resource yes. The rest you have to prove.

Where did all the Jews go after 45.

Israel, US, Canada, South-America or returned home. How many Polish Jews had fled the Nazi's into the USSR in 1939? In a post erlier in this thread I quoted from some source that (I believe) in 2009 there were still around 1,000,000 'survivors' around. That means that there were millions of 'survivors' in 1945.

This is one of the most famous pictures from the Warsaw gettho:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/hol-pix/warsaw-uprising.jpg

30 years later it turned out the kid had survived and had become a wealthy businessman in... London.

9/11 your steadfast commitment to no holocaust having occured in Europe, and the ongoing defense of the proposition has led me to consider a new scenario as to your motives. You are just about the only voice carring forward your views and everybody else on the forum is a detractor. Could it be you are a Zionist who trots out this fanciful frame of thought to raise and propogate the scenario of holocaust? Rememberance is a prime strategy to the Zionist in regard to this issue....just a thought.

Haha, the self-hating Jew scenario? No really...

 

[9/11-investigator]

Why would you feed "worthless eaters" to coin a phrase, when your resources were limited? Same reason Hitler did not want to capture Leningrad outright, he wanted to starve it into submission, watch a million die, relieved of the burden to feed the huddled masses.

I have read 2 biography's of Helmut Schmidt who managed to hide his partial Jewish ancestry and as a consequence had to fight in the east, meaning near to St. Petersburg. Never heard that the Germans did not want to capture St. Petersburg.

 

[9/11-investigator]

I thought you did not trust Russian sources -- oh wait, I see, when they say something you like, its trustworthy, when you do not like what they say, you ignore it.

Now we see how it works.

Kind of like putting your fingers in your ears when the big kids pick on you

It's all about context. The message of the 8,000 French Jews was broadcast from radio Moscow. Nobody in the West listened to that. But statements delivered by the Soviets at the NMT in Nuremberg, for instance about the 'Germans killing the Polish elite in the forest near Smolensk', no I take that with a grain of salt. Call me biased.

So ok, lets say you found several thousand French Jews -- still about 5,992,000 to go

Report back as you progress forward

Fine. Meanwhile you continue searching for proof that they predominantly were killed in the 'gas chambers'. Keep us posted.

Serious question: what was the most increminating thing you read in that 700+ page ICRC report? I am talking about direct experience, not hearsay.

 

[sonofgloin]

Haha, the self-hating Jew scenario? No really...

9/11 you misunderstood my meaning. Not a self deprecating Jew, but a Jewish zealot who employs the anti semetic profile and most importantly the flawed logic of the bigot to exhibit just how biased that group are.

 

[9/11-investigator]

So you keep saying... how about some evidence?


Another pathetic derail attempt? This thread isn't about what happened (or didn't) in the USA. It's supposedly about the Holocaust, which you keep claiming didn't happen. So how about you start posting some evidence in support of your claims?

Amazer is asking for evidence about the central role the Jews played in organizing the largest deaster that ever happened to mankind: Bolshevism.

Here is a nice starter: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html

I mean, if it really is true that the Jews played a decisive role in that horrible event, than you have to admit that the Germans somehow had a point in defending themselves against it.

 

[9/11-investigator]

9/11 you misunderstood my meaning. Not a self deprecating Jew, but a Jewish zealot who employs the anti semetic profile and most importantly the flawed logic of the bigot to exhibit just how biased that group are.

As I have said several times before: pure Saxon Dutch.

Just apply the Ducky criterium to me. Few here have trouble recognizing 'the Nazi' in me, you are the first to start about my 'Jewish heritage'.

I am somewhat amused about you guys combined strength of judgment. I fear that that 'strength' extends into the realm of the holo-thingie as well.

 

[Amazer]

Let's start with this evidence:

http://www.ghwk.de/2006-neu/gruppenfuehrer-greiser.jpg

The policy of deportation of Jews to the east, which was decided upon by
Hitler himself in September 1941, received its official blessing in a letter,
which Himmler wrote to Gauleiter Arthur Greiser on September 18, 1941:550

Translation:

“The Führer desires that the Altreich [Germany proper] and the Protectorate be emptied and freed of Jews as soon as possible, from the west to the east. It is therefore my intention, if possible already this year, to initially transport the Jews from the Altreich and the Protectorate into the eastern territories newly incorporated into the Reich two years ago, as a first stage, in order to deport them still farther to the east next spring. I am planning to bring about 60,000 Jews of the Altreich and the Protectorate into the Litzmannstadt Ghetto for the winter, which, as I understand, has space to accept them. In the interests of the Reich as a whole, I am asking you not only to understand, but to exert all your powers in supporting this measure, which surely will cause difficulties for your district. SS-Gruppenführer Heydrich, who has the task of carrying out this migration of Jews, will be turning to you in due course, directly or through SS-Gruppenführer Koppe.”

I don't know what you think this proves... but let me assure you that this is not evidence that supports your claim that Jews were resettled in the East.

 

[Amazer]

Amazer is asking for evidence about the central role the Jews played in organizing the largest deaster that ever happened to mankind: Bolshevism.

Here is a nice starter: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html

I mean, if it really is true that the Jews played a decisive role in that horrible event, than you have to admit that the Germans somehow had a point in defending themselves against it.

You are a crafty weasel... In the future I will word my question more carefully.

So let me rephrase:

So you keep saying... how about some evidence concerning the fact that the Germans decided to deport the Jews?

 

[sonofgloin]

This is one of the most famous pictures from the Warsaw gettho:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/hol-pix/warsaw-uprising.jpg
30 years later it turned out the kid had survived and had become a wealthy businessman in... London.

This link say's that he is possibly but not probably a near nose and throat guy in New York. I think the point is that if soldiers herd women and children with guns, they aint going to summer camp.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/nazioccupation/boy.html

 

[Trojan]

I have read 2 biography's of Helmut Schmidt who managed to hide his partial Jewish ancestry and as a consequence had to fight in the east, meaning near to St. Petersburg. Never heard that the Germans did not want to capture St. Petersburg.

The magnitude of your ignorance of history is staggering

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad

November 8: Hitler states in a speech at Munich: "Leningrad must die of starvation

 

[9/11-investigator]

Yes, for the benefit of JREF, these facilities did exist in the work camp and some inmates were permitted to live in relative luxury, this is all documented and most of the structures survive to this day. History had recorded this to be true.

What our denier is not saying, it that these facilities were not at the Auchwitz death camp, that is to say, perhaps a million Jews and others died at Auchwitz without ever seeing or passing by these facilties.

[qimg]http://www.chhooi.com/mrh/images/auschwitz1-2-map.jpg[/qimg]


Auschwitz I was the original camp, and it served as the administrative center for the whole complex. The Red Cross inspected this facility, the Jews and other slave laborers lived relatively well. This place had barracks, a hospital and all those fun little structures our deniers is talking about.

Auschwitz II (Birkenau) is the extermination facility.

Jews and others were sent there to be murdered, this is were the selection process and all the other famous activities took place.

So don't be confused by our denier, there were two camps here, and the diffrence was life and death.

Trojan is studiously ignoring that the Schwitz part 1 was used as an 'extermination camp' as well, although far fewer people were said to have died here than in Birkenau, but still thousands were 'gassed' and cremated here. So trojan admits the library, the theater, the cinema, the hospital as well as people writing home twice a month and Red Cross people all over the place, nevertheless these evil Germans managed to kill a large number of Jews inconspicuous to the rest of the world. You see, the inmates were too busy amusing themselves in the theater, 50 yards down the road, to notice what happened to some of their fellow inmates.

What a fool you must be to believe that.

 

[9/11-investigator]

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/71/71671.jpg

Russians liberating Auschwitz and having a photo-op with children.
Does somebody want to claim that they were still alive because they were factory workers?

 

[9/11-investigator]

The magnitude of your ignorance of history is staggering

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad

I think that you need stronger glasses. From your own resource:

The capture of Leningrad was one of three strategic goals in Hitler's initial plan, codenamed Operation Barbarossa, for invading and conquering the Soviet Union. Hitler's strategy was motivated by Leningrad's political status as the former capital of Russia and the symbolic capital of the Russian Revolution, its military importance as a main base of the Soviet Baltic Fleet and its industrial strength, housing numerous arms factories.[10][11]

Hitler was so confident of capturing Leningrad that invitations to the victory celebrations to be held in the city's Hotel Astoria were already printed.

But he never really wanted St. Petersburg. Sure.

 

[Trojan]

Serious question: what was the most increminating thing you read in that 700+ page ICRC report? I am talking about direct experience, not hearsay.

By no means did I read every page -- I spent about two hours turning the pages, some day I will explore it in more detail. When I do so and write a rebuttal, do you think any revisionist site will publish my rebuttal?

The most incriminating statement against Revisionists is the explicit statement that evidence of genocide was not to be looked for in its volumes, that it is a report of the Red Cross, what it saw, what it experienced, with its acknowledgment that its experience was not all encompassing -- the text was not meant to be used in the manner in which Harwood and others have tried.

The analysis of the legalities of how the Red Cross was denied jurisdiction by the Nazi's was also interesting. The Red Cross attempted to apply international law, but many of the internees were denied basic human rights by virtue of their citizenship. German Jews were German citizens and the Red Cross had no legal ability to inquire regarding their status, etc.

That the story that care packages were allowed, when in fact, they were allowed only for the few registered inmates -- the Red Cross states very clearly in several places that it knew all inmates were not registered and that its registry lists woefully under reported the known and suspected inmate populations.

Further the Red Cross states that it often did not push hard for fear that the access to the few it was allowed to visit would be denied to them. Something the Catholic church has also come to acknowledge.

Overall, any revisionist that reviews the text will leave disappointed or will have to lie and quote mine -- kind of like what Harwood did.

 

[Trojan]

I think that you need stronger glasses. From your own resource:

The capture of Leningrad was one of three strategic goals in Hitler's initial plan, codenamed Operation Barbarossa, for invading and conquering the Soviet Union. Hitler's strategy was motivated by Leningrad's political status as the former capital of Russia and the symbolic capital of the Russian Revolution, its military importance as a main base of the Soviet Baltic Fleet and its industrial strength, housing numerous arms factories.[10][11]

Hitler was so confident of capturing Leningrad that invitations to the victory celebrations to be held in the city's Hotel Astoria were already printed.

But he never really wanted St. Petersburg. Sure.

The capture of the city, after it was starved into submission. Come winter 1941, Hitler did not want an immediate capture, he wanted to populace to starve itself off first.

I never claimed he did not want to capture the city -- in fact the capture of the city would have greatly improved German's war fighting ability.

 

[Kurse]

Kurse refuses to produce a picture from a homicidal gas chamber (because there were no homicidal gas chambers) and instead tries to derail the discussion into the complete irrelevant question whether I did or did not visit Auschwitz as a tourist. And next he posts silly juvenile pictures which painfully illustrate that Kurse has nothing of substance to say on the matter.

Oh ho ho? I'm just having fun, I do believe you don't take me seriously anyways remember?

Speaking of derailing, you didn't show me =D. Now how is it that I have no substance when YOU CAN'T EVEN SHOW YOU WENT.

BOOM BABY. Now show me, and I may stop thinking how many ways I can describe your intelligence. Also, That picture was on the rail because it was relevant, like it or not. And again, stop talking in third person. Your not a narrator. It makes you sound like a caveman.

NOW SHOOOOW MEEEEE.

 

[Trojan]

BTW - here is the link to the book, if you find yourself in Pittsburgh, I'll meet you there

http://encore.einetwork.net/iii/enc...ond+World+War|Orightresult?lang=eng&suite=def

 

[Nonpareil]

For people who are interested to learn more about Treblinka and it's function as a transit camp download the free book (12.7MB):

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/

Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf - Treblinka Extermination Camp or Transit Camp? from 2003.

More on the destination of the Jews after Treblinka can be read from page 196:

Direct Transports of Jews to the Eastern Territories

The deportation of 50,000 Jews from the Protectorate and the Altreich to
Minsk and Riga, decided upon during the meeting of October 10, 1941, began
a month later. However, it represented only the first step of the deportations,
since the deportees were supposed to be taken even farther east. One of the first reports concerning the deportations into the Ostland is a telegram of November 9, 1941, directed to Rosenberg by Lohse, which reads as follows:

“Security Police reports implementation of the transport of 50,000 Jews
into the Ostland. Arrival of the 1st transport at Minsk, November 10, in Riga November 19. Urgently request to prevent transports, since Jewish camps must be shifted considerably farther to the east.”

On the same day, Dr. Leibbrand, head of the office at the Rosenberg Ministry, sent the following telegram to Lohse:

“Regarding transports of Jews into the Ostland. Precise message on its way. Jews are coming farther east. Camps in Riga and Minsk only temporary measures, no objections on that account here.”

...and, mysteriously, this information appears nowhere but in this book. Can you name sources?

From the Treblinka book, page 257:

According to Radio Moscow, several thousand French Jews were resettled in the Ukraine. In its issue Number 71 of April 1944, the Jewish underground
paper Notre Voix had the following news to report:

“Thank you! A news item that will delight all Jews of France was broadcast by Radio Moscow. Which of us does not have a brother, a sister, or relatives among those deported from Paris? And who will not feel pro-found joy when he thinks about the fact that 8,000 Parisian Jews have been rescued from death by the glorious Red Army! One of them told Radio Moscow how he had been saved from death, and likewise 8,000 other Parisian Jews. They were all in the Ukraine when the last Soviet offensive began, and the SS bandits wanted to shoot them before they left the country. But since they knew what fate was in store for them and since they had learned that the Soviet troops were no longer far away, the deported Jews decided to escape. They were immediately welcomed by the Red Army and are presently all in the Soviet Union. The heroic Red Army has thus once again earned a claim on the gratitude of the Jewish community of France.”

If French Jews, why not Dutch Jews?

Uh, lemme get this straight. You say that Jews in the Ukraine heard that the Germans were coming and ran to the USSR? How is this evidence for your deportation theory?

Simon belongs to the category who, if the Soviets claim that the Germans killed thousands of the Polish elite, takes their word for it. Anything the noble Soviets say is true, you know. Simon loves Soviets.

Nice ad hominem and non sequiter. It also functions as a baiting attempt and a derail. Four horrible logical failures in one paragraph! Very nice indeed. 9.5.

No, just a point I discovered once I started to look for this kind of material. We need to think out of the box, meaning think out of the 'gas chamber'.

Well, first of all, this is a complete dodge. You have utterly failed to address the issue. Not only that, but you are cherry-picking as to which facts of the report are reliable so that it appears to support your contentions. The parts that contradict you are "Soviet lies".

We have discussed the results of Krege earlier in this thread. It was obvious to all what was available and what was not. Why do you bring it up again in page 65 again?

He didn't. You did. So we set about explaining why the Krege study failed utterly at supporting its revisionist hopes.

Excellent. We all agree about Madagaskar. Eichmann visited Palestine in the thirties to see if he could ship the Jews there. No homicidal intent there.

No, but that does not mean that there wasn't homicidal intent during the extermination campaign.

So why would the Germans change their minds in 1941/1942 while they were still in the winning mood and had new vast territories at their disposal to catapult the Jews into rather than Madagaskar or Palestine?

Because a) it's cheaper, b) they needed the resources for the war and c) considering deportation does not mean deciding on deportation.

And I have shown you documents that prove that that was exactly the German intent.

No, you haven't. You've shown confirmationally-biased, bare-assertion-utilizing antisemitic websites in the hope that people would actually be dumb enough to take their assertions at face value. When you've actually presented reliable sources, you have quote-mined and horribly distorted their meanings.

I told you before that I am willing to take in account as a theoretical possiblity that the Germans started to exterminate the Jews later on as it became clear to the Germans them that they would lose the war. But not before. I have the documents for my case, you haven't anything to show other than repeating your tiring mantra

And I told you before that I am willing to take into account, as a theoretical possibility, that the Nazis never exterminated the Jewish people once you have provided evidence that this is a possibility. But not before. We have the documents for our case, and you haven't anything to show other than repeating your tiring mantra.

Why would you exterminate a slave resource in a situation where you are outnumbered by Soviets, Americans and the like?

Why would you need all of them? The Germans did use many of the Jews as slave labor, but they didn't need six million slaves to sustain. It was much easier to keep the workers they needed and to execute those who were surplus to requirements.

Wise words that could easily be applied to the 'holocaust'.

Nice dodge.

Your relatives, as far as they are not dyed in the wool communists will tell you that the brief Soviet occupation of the Baltics before Barbarossa was extremely brutal and nationalist Balts were all too willing to take revenge on those local elements who had been active enablers of that regime: the Jews.

Ad hominem, non sequiter, no true Scotsman.

Israel, US, Canada, South-America or returned home. How many Polish Jews had fled the Nazi's into the USSR in 1939? In a post erlier in this thread I quoted from some source that (I believe) in 2009 there were still around 1,000,000 'survivors' around. That means that there were millions of 'survivors' in 1945.

This is ludicrous. Why are there no records of their movements if millions of Jews traveled to other countries? Immigration offices the world over would have records of the moves.

This is one of the most famous pictures from the Warsaw gettho:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/hol-pix/warsaw-uprising.jpg

30 years later it turned out the kid had survived and had become a wealthy businessman in... London.

Derail.

It's all about context. The message of the 8,000 French Jews was broadcast from radio Moscow. Nobody in the West listened to that. But statements delivered by the Soviets at the NMT in Nuremberg, for instance about the 'Germans killing the Polish elite in the forest near Smolensk', no I take that with a grain of salt. Call me biased.

Okay, I will.

Amazer is asking for evidence about the central role the Jews played in organizing the largest deaster that ever happened to mankind: Bolshevism.

Here is a nice starter: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html

I mean, if it really is true that the Jews played a decisive role in that horrible event, than you have to admit that the Germans somehow had a point in defending themselves against it.

You continue to post this site as if it were a credible source. News flash: it isn't. You continue to display your intellectual dishonesty, as well as your raging antisemitism, confirmation bias and moral double standard - as well as your lack of understanding of the guilt by association fallacy. Even if the Jews were involved in Bolshevism (they weren't, at least not to any degree that would make them any more at fault than any other ethnic group), that doesn't justify the Nazi slaughter.

And again, I noticed how you avoided addressing any of the points I made in my posts. If you are unable to refute them, admit that you have lost. If you are able to refute them, then do so.