9-11 Facts Movement

[RedIbis]

History is full of people passionate about something that turns out to be wrong, people passionate about facts that weren't really facts. Time will tell which one of us belongs in what group, no?

Indeed.

 

[Elf Grinder 3000]

Why were the black boxes never recovered? Isn't this extremely rare.

 

[dtugg]

Why were the black boxes never recovered? Isn't this extremely rare.

The black boxes from 77 and 93 were recovered. As for 11 and 175 it is also extremely rare for fully fueled jets to be flown at high speed into huge skyscrapers which later collapse and burn for weeks. Actually, it has only happened twice.

 

[R.Mackey]

Black Boxes are nowhere near indestructible -- they're much weaker than structural steel, and they rarely survive lengthy fires.

And this question is totally off topic. Use the Search function, use Google, use common sense, please.

 

[Elf Grinder 3000]

If you are accumulating facts, I think this is one of the few facts where the probability favors "conspiracy".

The boxes are extremely durable, and THERE HAVE ONLY BEEN 2 TIMES IN HISTORY WHERE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RECOVERED (except once or 2 in the open ocean).

About 150 Plane crashes in the US per year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_accidents_and_incidents#Statistics

So figure in the past 20 years there have been 20 * 150 = 3000 accidents

We are talking about a 1/3000 event.

 

[dtugg]

How many times has a fully fueled jet been flown at high speed into a huge skyscraper which later collapses and burns for weeks, twoofer?

 

[Gorgonian]

If you are accumulating facts, I think this is one of the few facts where the probability favors "conspiracy".

The boxes are extremely durable, and THERE HAVE ONLY BEEN 2 TIMES IN HISTORY WHERE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RECOVERED (except once or 2 in the open ocean).

About 150 Plane crashes in the US per year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_accidents_and_incidents#Statistics

So figure in the past 20 years there have been 20 * 150 = 3000 accidents

We are talking about a 1/3000 event.

So you except one rare circumstance in which blackboxes are likely not to be recovered (ocean crashes) but won't except another (crushed by a skyscraper and burned for weeks)? Why is that?

 

[A W Smith]

If you are accumulating facts, I think this is one of the few facts where the probability favors "conspiracy".

The boxes are extremely durable, and THERE HAVE ONLY BEEN 2 TIMES IN HISTORY WHERE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RECOVERED (except once or 2 in the open ocean).

About 150 Plane crashes in the US per year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_accidents_and_incidents#Statistics

So figure in the past 20 years there have been 20 * 150 = 3000 accidents

We are talking about a 1/3000 event.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/125090/

[FONT=ARIAL,]I will have to check some sources to confirm, but as I had some considerable involvement at the Pentagon, I'll trust my instincts: IIRC, the boxes from AA Flt 77 were recovered, and the FDR was decoded. I remember a lot of specifics as to the flight data leading up to the crash, and I don't believe it was extrapolated radar but actual FDR data up to <1sec before impact.

On another note, I can't reveal the source (or verify authenticity), but there is a story of a CVR "pinger" being activated on Long Island about 2 weeks following the incident. The signal chirped for approx. 35 minutes and then silenced. The coordinates were triangulated to the salvage yard where the excavated wreckage from the WTC was dumped. The wreckage had to be sprayed with water b/c of the asbestos and other hazardous materials present. It was assumed that the data recorders were destroyed in the crash and fire, but the implication seems to be that at least the dry-charge signal generator survived, only to be destroyed in the salvage operation. [/FONT]

 

[R.Mackey]

If you are accumulating facts, I think this is one of the few facts where the probability favors "conspiracy".

The boxes are extremely durable, and THERE HAVE ONLY BEEN 2 TIMES IN HISTORY WHERE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RECOVERED (except once or 2 in the open ocean).

Sigh. The WTC crashes are unique, and because of the environment of the crash, recovery is not expected. Or, to be more precise, the Black Boxes were recovered, but were not identifiable out of the billions of other small bits of burned, crushed rubble.

We don't need the recorders. There is no information they would provide that we need. You're fixated on this because you're looking for something to complain about, not answers.

Your probabilistic argument is pulled from your backside. I don't even have to look up your posting history to know you are a Truther. Probabilities don't work like this.

Last time, you're off topic. We've discussed this dozens of times. It's not interesting and it doesn't belong here.

 

[ergo]

You said this before. It was wrong then and wrong now. You've been given examples. Is this plain trolling or can you not read?

I have? Must have missed that. What were those buildings again?

 

[TJM]

I have? Must have missed that. What were those buildings again?

Plain trolling it is.

 

[ergo]

Do you mean the one building mentioned here?

Oh wait, that wasn't steel-framed.

 

[A W Smith]

Do you mean the one building mentioned here?

Oh wait, that wasn't steel-framed.

oh it was wood then? Go ahead. tell us what it was,

 

[ergo]

Actually, I thought there was one, but nope. No steel-framed highrise--nay, even low-rise--has suffered total collapse from fire. Except for WTC.

So what are your examples, please?

 

[rsalinger]

Ergo's point seems to be that the article doesn't mention any steel framed building which TOTALLY collapsed. The point being made more is that fire can and has induced collapses in steel framed buildings from time to time. The engineers who wrote the article are clear that fires can cause a collapse of a steel framed building. What happens after the collapse begins is another matter.

Ergo seems not to grasp that antecedents were also unprecedented - combination of building design, aircraft strikes and un-fought fires.

In any case, this might meet your standards - http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-097.pdf if you care to read it.

Rgrds

 

[beachnut]

If you are accumulating facts, I think this is one of the few facts where the probability favors "conspiracy".

The boxes are extremely durable, and THERE HAVE ONLY BEEN 2 TIMES IN HISTORY WHERE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RECOVERED (except once or 2 in the open ocean).

About 150 Plane crashes in the US per year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_accidents_and_incidents#Statistics

So figure in the past 20 years there have been 20 * 150 = 3000 accidents

We are talking about a 1/3000 event.

The collapse of the towers released KE equal to 130 TONS of TNT in each tower. What do you know on earth that would survive the equal energy of 260 2,000 pound bombs? What do you know would survive the largest office fires in history?

Not finding two tiny equipment systems in 19 acres of debris which once were over 220 acres of office space it not a mystery.

How many Gs did the FDR in the tail suffer at impact against one of the strongest buildings in the world? What is a FDR rated to take? What speed is the G force typically of?


Flight 77 impacted the Pentagon in one piece, and the building collapsed, impact and fire destroyed the CVR, the FDR survived and suffered fire damage. The building collapse was not 110 floors.

Flight 93 impacted the ground in one piece, and the ground did not collapse and spread out over 19 acres like 175 and 11. The CVR and FDR were buried 25 feet in the ground; when and if you figure out what a FDR is designed to survive, you could see why 93's FDR could survive, and why 11 and 175 might of been destroyed.


WTC, how much does it weigh? The Static Crush specification for a FDR is 5000 pounds for 5 minutes. OOPS! The floors above the impact zones of 11 and 175 were over 29,000,000 millions pounds of stuff.

Which is bigger, 5,000 pounds or millions of pounds? Can a FDR survive in the WTC collapse?

If.... THERE HAVE ONLY BEEN 2 TIMES IN HISTORY WHERE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RECOVERED (except once or 2 in the open ocean).

....

Source. Reference how many times a FDR has not been recovered or destroyed by an accident. Prove only 2 times, and once or twice.

 

[ergo]

Well, as a firefighter, I'd have to point out that you're not doing very well with your bookends (1 and 17).

Looks like you got your very first FACT wrong. My, my.

 

[ergo]

In any case, this might meet your standards - http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-097.pdf if you care to read it.

http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-049.pdf

 

[A W Smith]

http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-049.pdf

And where is the meridian plaza building today ???

 

[PhantomWolf]

Looks like you got your very first FACT wrong. My, my.

I'm still waiting for you truthers to come up with a single fact. Try it. Give me one proven fact that truthers all agree happened.