9/11 acars

[Mynott]

Acars

This forum is timely as there is a poster on a MB here down under who is currently attempting to make a meal out of Woody nut's and Balsmo's alleged findings on ACARS and Flights 175,93. Keep it up.!

 

[Mynott]

Comments please beach nut, re a twoofers remarks here re RADAR track,

Radar tracks aircraft and only identifies them from the transponder signal.

ie Radar cannot positively identify an aircraft. Just a green blip and some numbers.

ACARS can positively identify aircraft.

Perhaps you would like to post the ACARS tracking information of your "hijacked" planes.

Cheers

 

[beachnut]

I'm sure it's here somewhere, but can someone steer me to the debunk of this rubbish-

ACARS CONFIRMED - 9/11 AIRCRAFT AIRBORNE LONG AFTER CRASH
UNITED 175 IN THE VICINITY OF HARRISBURG AND PITTSBURGH, PA

(PilotsFor911Truth.org) - Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) is a device used to send messages to and from an aircraft. Very similar to text messages and email we use today, ... and then later routed through a ground station in Pittsburgh, 20 minutes after the aircraft allegedly impacted the South Tower in New York. How can messages be routed through such remote locations if the aircraft was in NY, not to mention how can messages be routed to an aircraft which allegedly crashed 20 minutes earlier? Pilots For 9/11 Truth have briefly touched on this subject in 9/11: Intercepted through the excellent research of "Woody Box", who initially discovered such alarming information in the released FOIA documents(1). We now have further information which confirms the aircraft was not in the vicinity of New York City when the attacks occurred. read more...

Balsamo extends his insanity to Flight 93...

Balsamo, using 11.2g failed physics logic, where you just make up incredibly stupid statements by waving hands, like 11.2gs, Balsamo says,

It is conclusive, the 9/11 Aircraft were airborne long after their alleged crashes.​

RADAR data makes this statement insanity. One would have to be brain-dead to agree with Balsamo. DNA for Flight 93 Passengers, and terrorists, prove Balsamo is a liar, making an insane claim, one only morons, a few failures at p4t forum believe.

DNA, and RADAR prove Balsamo lies. Not a surprise, he sells lies on DVD, filled with nonsense morons believe.

quoting United Dispatcher Ed Ballinger, the second time stamp on the bottom of the message, at United Airlines, is the "Technical Acknowledgement" from the airplane that the message has been received -

Mr. Ballinger stated that the ACARS messages have two times listed: the time sent and the time received. He stated that once he sends the message it is delivered to the addressed aircraft through AIRINC immediately. He is not aware of any delay in the aircraft receiving the message after he sends it.
​

According to the above statement made by Mr. Ballinger, all of the above messages were received by the aircraft.

This is Balsamo's proof, made up nonsense about Ballinger. Now if you say Balsamo is a liar, he can shift it to Ballinger. DRG used the hearsay method of shifting the burden of proof to the hearsay source.

The truth is, a dispatcher can't tell if a plane gets a message, or not. Unless the service provider tells them, or the crew responds.

Who is Ed Ballinger? Ed Ballinger, is a former United Airlines flight dispatcher. Not an expert on ACARS, he is a user, uses ACARS to send messages, not an expert on ACRAS. Why can't Balsamo's cult members figure this out by thinking for themselves? After 11.2g physics from Balsamo I would expect the blind Followers of Balsamo to be more skeptical.

Ballinger has no clue if Flight 93 and Flight 175 received the messages. Balsamo is a liar, he sells lies on DVD.

Ironic, pilots for truth have no theory.

Balsamo says...

It is conclusive, the 9/11 Aircraft were airborne long after their alleged crashes.​

It is not a theory, it is an idiotic claim. How stupid do you have to be to believe Balsamo? Undefined, too stupid to define, too lazy to think for themselves.


The dispatcher has no clue if the message was received with the evidence on record. In reality, the dispatcher has no evidence the message was received unless the crew responds, or the carrier, the service provider (AIRINC) supplies the information the message was rejected. ... failure for Balsamo, using hearsay to form delusional claims only a few morons, Balsamo drones believe. Balsamo failed as a pilot, fails as a researcher.

Hi,

I have a file which disproves assertions of P4T regarding ACARS messages to UAL93. This is my post on P4T discussing this.

Warren.

It is ironic. Warren, I have programed from assembly to PASCAL, you are an expert on the FDR and decoding it. Not surprised you technically proved Balsamo failed again.

Balsamo fails to realize you are an expert on what you post. I doubt Balsamo understands the extent of your expertise. Your efforts are equal or better than an effort at the Masters level...

Good work

Comments please beach nut, re a twoofers remarks here re RADAR track,

Radar tracks aircraft and only identifies them from the transponder signal.

ie Radar cannot positively identify an aircraft. Just a green blip and some numbers.

ACARS can positively identify aircraft.

Perhaps you would like to post the ACARS tracking information of your "hijacked" planes.

Cheers

False, transponder is not needed to track an aircraft. You might hear flight 93 disappeared from ATC scopes. That can be true if the ATC sites did not have the ability to use raw data. However, the track of all aircraft are recorder, the raw RADAR data is on tape, and can be used to show exactly where each plane flew.

ACARS could show where a plane was, but it would be related to a message from the aircraft, not a function of ACARS, a function of what is in a message from the aircraft.

RADAR does identify an aircraft, because you track it from takeoff to landing or crash, or leaving RADAR contact. Because you follow it in space and time.

ACARS tracking? email tracking? What is this?

ACARS does not track an aircraft, but ACARS messages from an aircraft could be used to track an aircraft. Look up what ACARS is, what the different classes of messages are. People can figure this out with google if they dig deep enough.

RADAR does not need a transponder to track an aircraft. RADAR does positively identify an aircraft. RADAR is a like an eye, and electronic eye, a RADIO eye, an electromagnetic eye. RADAR also can be used to find altitude, the RAW data, not only the transponder information. ... it is easier if the transponder is used. The raw data from 911 proves each plane's path.

... on 911, if the terrorists turned off the transponder, the RADAR sites recorded the tracks of all aircraft. ... , all other aircraft were squawking, all other aircraft were using transponders. Bad news for Balsamo moronic claims about RADAR.

 

[Oystein]

Hi,

I have a file which disproves assertions of P4T regarding ACARS messages to UAL93. This is my post on P4T discussing this.

Warren.

To view, I need to sign up. Before I sign up, I must agree to the following term:

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.

hahaha and then Aldo opens a thread about this here JREF thread:

Duhbunkers try to explain ACARS and fail

And of course, we see the obsessoids over at the govt loyalist cesspool scurrying, looking for and expecting an immediate explanation from the nameless faceless "experts". This individual can't even think or research for themself, they have to seek comfort in answers from the groupthink tank.

I LOL'd

 

[Mynott]

Sorry beach nut, and finally these comments from our resdent twoofer down under,

"Not my theory - that's your first mistake. It is conclusive evidence that there was a plane swap.It was compiled from FAA data .Therre is no scope for any other interpretation, at least not any that you have come up with.

There is circumstantial evidence as well.

Radar data shows these planes 93 and 175) on converging tracks with others.

Why did the " hijackers " turn off the transponders only to turn them back on again.? Why not just leave them switched off? How did they know the correct code to re enter?

Why did UA93 choose to do their course reversing turn in a radar blind spot?

It doesn't matter , anyway. ACARS data is conclusive. There is no doubt where the planes were and when.

ATC radar can be easily fooled . ACARS can't.

 

[beachnut]

Sorry beach nut, and finally these comments from our resdent twoofer down under,

"Not my theory - that's your first mistake. It is conclusive evidence that there was a plane swap.It was compiled from FAA data .Therre is no scope for any other interpretation, at least not any that you have come up with.

There is circumstantial evidence as well.

Radar data shows these planes 93 and 175) on converging tracks with others.

Why did the " hijackers " turn off the transponders only to turn them back on again.? Why not just leave them switched off? How did they know the correct code to re enter?

Why did UA93 choose to do their course reversing turn in a radar blind spot?

It doesn't matter , anyway. ACARS data is conclusive. There is no doubt where the planes were and when.

ATC radar can be easily fooled . ACARS can't.

There is no RADAR blind spot, the RADAR data is taped, stored, and can be used after the fact to track aircraft accurately. I have used it when I investigated accident in the USAF. The moron has no useful knowledge of RADAR. Yes, ATC lost 93, but the raw data was recorded. This means we know exactly where 93 was.

I have the raw data for 93 in google earth, it shows 93 from takeoff to crash.

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/foia/9_11/Rec_Radar_Data_Study_all_aircraft.pdf

DNA proves where 93 crashed. ACARS messages were not received by 93 and 175 after they crashed. To claim that is true is insanity. Is the person insane, or incredibly stupid?


RADAR proves where the plane ended up on 911. DNA for 93 proves RADAR and 93's fate. The poor moron down-under should be happy he/she is able to use the Internet, his/her only skill that is rational.

There is no RADAR blind spot. There is RADAR data for all flights.

ACARS is a message traffic, like email. ACARS messages were not received by 93 or 175 after they crashed due to murderers.

ACARS is message traffic, it has no value as to where the aircraft are, unless the message contains Nav information. The ACARS works 220 or more miles away, by VHF radio, it does not tell you where the plane is, unless the plane messages it position.

The raw RADAR data show altitude, thus the aircraft which get close to other, are not at the same altitude, thus tracking proves no swap. The so called swap aircraft were squawking, and thus could not be confused with the hijacked aircraft.

Have the moron explain how RADAR is fooled. BTW, multiple RADAR sites tracked the aircraft on 911. Multiple independent RADAR sites. oops

Balsamo lies. He said I had a stroke. ... no stroke yet. he thinks someone who had a stoke is able to expose his lies, and he is the one with the 11.2g claim made up out of thin air. He has to say I had a stroke so his failed Followers will not think for themselves.
Balsamo has to make up stuff and fails. He says this is reality ...
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/111Beachnut_757_A320.jpg
yet this it the actual post.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6781015&postcount=1250
The current real post.
He can't get anything right so he lies and blocks JREF from his forum. Balsamo is a truth NAZI, only lies are allowed.
Here is my post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6781015&postcount=1250, here is what Balsamo says the post is
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/111Beachnut_757_A320.jpg
I set him up for failure, he is not too smart. He sells DVDs filled with moronic claims, and threatens to kill people who disagree with him.
This is the best Balsamo can do.

“Mark Roberts deserves to die a traitors [sic] death for trying to suppress 9/11 families from seeking the Truth.”–"Pilots for Truth" founder, and ex-commercial pilot, Robert Balsamo​

...And a few months later:

"Mark Roberts does deserve to die a traitors death....​

I will not apologize for it this time. I will be there for his death should America fall into Civil War. That is not a threat. .that is a promise.​

If he gets in my way of defending our Constitution.. it will be my pleasure to put a bullet in his head to defend our Constitution from enemies foreign or domestic." –"Pilots for Truth" founder Robert Balsamo,

Balsamo never flew left seat heavy jets, something I did in my 20s. He made up the ACARS claims, a lie out of ignorance. ​

 

[Oystein]

For those who don't want to sign up at P4T:
Warren uploaded this FOIA file with ACARS messages to and from flights 11, 77, and 93:
http://www.warrenstutt.com/General Files/5 AWA 898 Printout of ARINC Messages.pdf

Here is what I understand:

Messages with the code

• "ULMSG" are from airline to ARINC, to be routed via a target radio station (Target Stn)m which could be the wrong one; it's probably determined by airline from flight plan
• "ULBLK" are messages from ground station to plane - the actuak ground station sending is in the tag "Stn="
• "DLBLK" are messages from plane to ground station (downlink). The actual receiving station is in the tag "BepStnName="

Time stamps are in Universal Time, which was ET +4h., So a stamp of "20010911 13:47:31" translates to 9:47:31ET.

Some stations can be looked up here:
http://www.angelfire.com/sc/scannerpost/acars.html
Some more here:
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/decoders/acars.pdf
And a map here:
http://datalink.sas.se/ground/images/north_america_052010.pdf

Some stations that I saw in the ACARS log:
BWI=Baltimore
CAK=Akron (Ohio)
CLE=Cleveland
CRW= Charleston (West Virginia)
CVG=Cincinnati
DTW=Detroit
EWR=Newark, NJ
FWA=Fort Wayne (Indiana)
HTS=? (I am guessing Huntington, West Virginia)
IAD=Washington (Dulles)
LGA=New York City (La Guardia)
ORF=Norfolk, VA
PIT=Pittsburg
SYR=Syracuse (NY)
TOL=Toledo (Ohio)
YYZ=Toronto

UA93 crashed at 10:03:11. Warren notices correctly that the last DLBLK message from UA93 was received at 10:01:57/59ET by ground stations Pittsburgh (ca. 80 miles from Shanksville) and Washington-Dulles (ca. 150 miles from Shanksville).
After crash time, there are no more DLBLK messages, only uplinks.

Rob Balsamo at P4T doubts Warren's expertise, and his interpretation of "BepStnName=" tags for DLBLK messages, and mockingly points out that a DLBLL was received from UA93 at 09:47:31ET by ground stations in Detroit, Dulles and Toronto. The message was also received by Pittsburgh and HTS (Huntington, WV?).
Rob seems to think this is not possible. However, at the time the plane had turned near Cleveland and was somewhere near the Ohio-Pennsylvania-West Virginia state borders, heading east towards Pittsburgh. That location was approx.

• <200 miles from Detroit
• <250 miles from Toronto
• ~250 miles from Washington
• ~50 miles from Pittsurgh
• ~200 miles from Huntington

All within reasonable range for planes at altitude. At the time, UA93 was still at about 19,000 feet (5700m). At this altitude, the horizon is about 170 miles away.
(Details of flight path here).
Reading through the log file, it becomes clear that Warren's interpretation of station names for downlinks is spot-on: Early in the flight, the akronyms for airports in New York feature heavly, later in the flight, Ohio takes over, and always there are occasional messages picked up locations near the horizon, such as Baltimore, Buffalo, Norfolk, Toronto, Cincinnati, Huntington.
Also, following the target stations of ULMSG messages, we see how UA93 was supposed to fly.


Conclusion:
The ACARS message log nicely corroborates the null hypothesis that UA93 flew from Newark out west, was diverted near Cleveland around 9:35, flew back east towards Pennsylvania and crashed shortly after 10:01.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

The one good thing about aviation is those who do do and those who don't make it up.
May the cockpit door ever remain a stupidity filter !

I dunno....Balsammo used to be allowed to fly commercial planes......doubtful anyone would employ him now though.

 

[tsig]

Hi,

I have a file which disproves assertions of P4T regarding ACARS messages to UAL93. This is my post on P4T discussing this.

Warren.

I followed the discussion about the cockpit door, it was great to see how you step by step demolished his 'no door open' theory.

Good work.




ETA: looks like you got under Bobby's skin:

For the record, Warren tried to reply again. As expected, he has evaded my requests. In a court of law, this would be known as "non-responsive" and a Judge could hold Warren in contempt. But then again, Warren will never make it to the stand as an expert witness in Aviation.

I will not allow Warren to spread more disinformation on this forum until he addresses what he has avoided for nearly a year.

Warren, your replies to the ACARS argument are in a safe place and will be restored when you address and most importantly, correct the issues you have been avoiding.

I will not allow you to troll this forum with further confirmed disinformation and speculation when you have demonstrated that you avoid corrections to your past analysis and confirmed disinformation.


Bobby is a diligent reader of the JREF even though he loathes the place.

 

[DGM]

Bobby is a diligent reader of the JREF even though he loathes the place.

Sad part, I'm sure he's working on a way to get back in here. After all, this forum is the only thing standing in his way of bringing Justice to the world.

 

[Huttosaurus]

This forum is timely as there is a poster on a MB here down under who is currently attempting to make a meal out of Woody nut's and Balsmo's alleged findings on ACARS and Flights 175,93.

Wouldn't be a certain male username with three numbers would it?

 

[Mynott]

User name

Correct. !

 

[wstutt]

<snip>

It is ironic. Warren, I have programed from assembly to PASCAL, you are an expert on the FDR and decoding it. Not surprised you technically proved Balsamo failed again.

Balsamo fails to realize you are an expert on what you post. I doubt Balsamo understands the extent of your expertise. Your efforts are equal or better than an effort at the Masters level...

Good work

<snip>

Thanks for the kind words again, Beachnut.

Rob does understand that I actually have some expertise when it suits him. Look at this page scroll down to the section DATA FRAME LAYOUT and you will see a page from my web site referenced in footnote 3.

Warren.

 

[Mynott]

Thanx for that beachnut .I believe if it would be worthwhile if say 9/11 myths added an item on ACARS challenging the rubbish generated by Rob Balasmo and Pilots for 9/11 Truth. Drowning as they do the salient issues in techno babble ,drivel and dross that is nevertheless tempting bait for the uninformed ,naive and gullible.
Remember it is this type unreason that demigods like Hitler and Stalin used to eliminate race and class enemies.!

 

[wstutt]

I followed the discussion about the cockpit door, it was great to see how you step by step demolished his 'no door open' theory.

Good work.




ETA: looks like you got under Bobby's skin:

<snip>

Thanks for your kind words tsig.

Rob has put my account on moderate, so he has to approve my posts before they appear. I have actually posted a reply to his points as he requested, but that post has also yet to appear.

Warren.

 

[beachnut]

Thanks for your kind words tsig.

Rob has put my account on moderate, so he has to approve my posts before they appear. I have actually posted a reply to his points as he requested, but that post has also yet to appear.

Warren.

Pilots for 911 truth can't have the truth exposed on a forum dedicated to lies and failed claims.

 

[wstutt]

Since Rob won't be letting any of my posts regarding ACARS to appear on the P4T forums any time soon, I would like to take the opportunity of responding to this P4T post here.

Here is a quote from David Knerr, Manager, Dispatch Automation, United Airlines from page 36 of this document from the above post:

KNERR provided information related to the printout of text messages transmitted to and from UA FLIGHT 93 on 09/11/2001 through the AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION ADDRESSING AND REPORTING SYSTEM (ACARS). KNERR identified this system as one means of communication that is utilized between aircraft and commercial carriers, like UA, to transmit text data. KNERR related that data is either uplinked to the aircraft from fixed communication centers or downlinked from the aircraft to receiving communication centers. KNERR explained the uplink and downlink references on an ACARS message. DLBLK refers to downlink while ULBLK refers to uplink.

These references also identify that a ACARS message has been received by its sender, either ground communications or the aircraft. In the final moments, at 10:12 AM EST, of UA FLIGHT 93's flight, ACARS messages were being sent from ground communications but were not being received. This was causing the ACARS messages to be rejected. KNERR advised that FLIGHT 93's low altitude may have caused this dilemma or the fact that FLIGHT 93 had already crashed at the time the messages were sent.

If we have a look at this document at 10:12AM EST (14:12 GMT) we see:

(Note to moderators: This image is from my web site. I give myself permission to hot link to it)

Those ACARS messages look like the following ones from this document:

DDLXCXA CHIAK CHI68R
.CHIAKUA 111410/ED
CMD
AN N591UA/GL CMI
- QUCHIAKUA 1UA93 EWRSFO
- MESSAGE FROM CHIDD -
DO NOT DIVERT TO DC AREA
CHIDD ED BALLINGER

;09111410 108575 0706


DDLXCXA CHIAK CHI68R
.CHIAKUA 111410/ED
CMD
AN N591UA/GL CMI
- QUCHIAKUA 1UA93 EWRSFO
- MESSAGE FROM CHIDD -
DO NOT DIVERT TO DC AREA
CHIDD ED BALLINGER

;09111411 108575 0707

Now according to the interpretation of Ed Ballinger, aircraft dispatcher, United Airlines, those messages were acknowledged by the aircraft at 14:10 and 14:11 GMT respectively which is after the official time of the crash of UAL93. According to Michael J. Winter these messages which he referred to as messages #18 and #19 on page 57 of this document were both

... sent to the printer and Message #19 also activated an audible signal in the aircraft.

But according to David Knerr, those messages were not received by the aircraft.

So we have David Knerr disagreeing with Ed Ballinger and Michael J. Winter. All three of these men worked for United Airlines at the time.

P4T take the side of Ed Ballinger and Michael J. Winter and assert that the aircraft was still in the air after the official time of the crash.

Since there is no DLBLKs and therefore no ACARS messages received from the aircraft after the official time of the crash, I take the side of David Knerr.

Warren.

 

[Oystein]

Warren,

I scanned the thread at P4T and your reply here, and would submit the following suggestions:

• Ballinger, when saying that messages were "acknowledged", wasn't refering to feedback fromn the plane, but to feedback fromn the RGS. At least I don't recall him quoted as explicitly saying that the message was ack'ed by the plane
• Winter mentions a feedback that no one alive has heard: an audible signal in the cockpit. How does he know there actually was an audible signal? I suggest he only meant that there would have been an audible signal.

Does this make some sense?

 

[wstutt]

Hi Oystein,

Warren,

I scanned the thread at P4T and your reply here, and would submit the following suggestions:

• Ballinger, when saying that messages were "acknowledged", wasn't refering to feedback fromn the plane, but to feedback fromn the RGS. At least I don't recall him quoted as explicitly saying that the message was ack'ed by the plane

You're correct, Ballinger didn't say acknowledged. He said:

Mr. Ballinger stated that the ACARS messages have two times listed: the time sent and the time received. He stated that once he sends the message it is delivered to the addressed aircraft through AIRINC immediately. He is not aware of any delay in the aircraft receiving the message after he sends it.

P4T claims that the second time is the time the aircraft received the message.

• Winter mentions a feedback that no one alive has heard: an audible signal in the cockpit. How does he know there actually was an audible signal? I suggest he only meant that there would have been an audible signal.

Does this make some sense?

Yes, I agree with you, but P4T takes his statement literally.

Warren.

 

[Oystein]

Hi Oystein,

You're correct, Ballinger didn't say acknowledged. He said:

Mr. Ballinger stated that the ACARS messages have two times listed: the time sent and the time received. He stated that once he sends the message it is delivered to the addressed aircraft through AIRINC immediately. He is not aware of any delay in the aircraft receiving the message after he sends it.

P4T claims that the second time is the time the aircraft received the message.

This seems to be the more natural interpretation of Ballinger's (paraphrased) words, but couldn't it be receipt by the RGS?

Yes, I agree with you, but P4T takes his statement literally.

Warren.

And it is obvious that this literal interpretation is not something that Winter could possibly know.