Merged 8.8 quake in Sendai, Japan

[Belz...]

I'd love to hear your definition of "crucial objects" that are more valuable than a pet(s) life.

Say, a memory card containing the sum total of everything I've worked on for the last 18 years. Stuff I can't replace, as well. Pets you can replace, though I'd grab them if I could, of course.

 

[Frank Newgent]

I'd grab some beer out of the fridge.

 

[Rolfe]

Say, a memory card containing the sum total of everything I've worked on for the last 18 years. Stuff I can't replace, as well. Pets you can replace, though I'd grab them if I could, of course.

Seriously, if you have data that important, I'd hope you have a backup copy off-site. I understand the imperative the save something like that, but there should be no need to save it.

The thing is, I don't feel I have a responsibility to any inanimate object. I have a responsibility to the animals in my household, and after doing whatever I had to do to make sure the people were safe, I'd do the same for the pets. Probably simultaneously, with my other hand, if possible.

ETA: The goldfish are on their own, in a threatened flood/tsumani.

Rolfe.

 

[patchbunny]

So most nuclear power plants are like small fortresses? Does the japanese have armed guards?

I toured a nuclear plant in the US around '94. There were a number of rather heavily armed guards patrolling the grounds and the building interiors. I can't imagine it's not the same for other countries.

 

[Rasmus]

I toured a nuclear plant in the US around '94. There were a number of rather heavily armed guards patrolling the grounds and the building interiors. I can't imagine it's not the same for other countries.

I've said elsewhere that I have been to a German one when I was going to school still. (So that must be over 15 years ago now.)

It would have been difficult but not impossible to get on the grounds (but they did have fences and some sort of electrical field or something that would register intruders) and it would have been near impossible to get inside the power plant without authorization.

The fences ware based on concrete barriers that were supposed to stop tanks; the walls of the power plants. Plants were build to withstand the accidental but direct impact of a small fighter airplane. A targeted attack with one or more passenger airlines has not been part of the scenarios that plants are protected against. ( smokescreens are, apparently, ready to be used to make such a direct attack more difficult to carry out.)

 

[Soapy Sam]

Seriously, if you have data that important, I'd hope you have a backup copy off-site. I understand the imperative the save something like that, but there should be no need to save it.

The think is, I don't feel I have a responsibility to any inanimate object. I have a responsibility to the animals in my household, and after doing whatever I had to do to make sure the people were safe, I'd do the same for the pets. Probably simultaneously, with my other hand, if possible.

Rolfe.

I have back ups, but they are only a few miles away. In a disaster of this scale, I might well delay for an absolutely critical SD card- but my chance of finding anything that fast is slim. Cloud computing may be the answer.
As for animals and the elderly- I don't know. From what I've seen on TV, it was sauve qui peut and even that with small chance. I'm still puzzled by how few people we see in the tv videos actually fleeing. Either they all left after the quake, before the tsunami- which I hope is the case- or very few got out at all. (Or they have been heavily edited, which may be the answer).

I wonder what the earthquake rescue teams are really going to find- they are trained to deal with collapsed structures containing air gaps inside which buried victims may survive. It's hard to see how that training can be applied to a debris flow.

 

[Rolfe]

We discussed earlier in the thread that there was a 15-minute warning of the tsunami. That's quite a long time if you don't have to move very far. Time enough to get into a car and drive to high ground, assuming the roads aren't clogged by too many other people doing the same thing, or to get to a tsunami shelter, which we've been shown were constructed.

It's also been pointed out that this eventuality was drilled for, so people shouldn't have had to stop and think, what do I do? They would have known what to do and where to head for. They should also have had a plan for assisting the elderly and infirm.

The man who was rescued from his floating roof, ten miles out to sea, was caught because he and his wife turned back to collect some stuff.

The death toll is going to be high because the severity of the disaster was greater than planned for, but after the discussion earlier in the thread I've realised that my initial assumptions about these houses and cars all being occupied were probably unwarranted. This wasn't Aceh, where the wave came with no warning.

Rolfe.

 

[Kestrel]

I wonder what the earthquake rescue teams are really going to find- they are trained to deal with collapsed structures containing air gaps inside which buried victims may survive. It's hard to see how that training can be applied to a debris flow.

There are plenty of collapsed buildings outside the tsunami area. But I doubt they are going to find anyone alive under the debris flow.

 

[Rolfe]

I wonder how many people will turn out to have been killed by the earthquake itself, as opposed to the tsunami? The preparedness for the simple quake seemed to be pretty good. However, the towns closest to the epicentre were also those affected by the tsunami, so I suppose it's not a question anyone will be able to answer.

Rolfe.

 

[Kestrel]

We discussed earlier in the thread that there was a 15-minute warning of the tsunami. That's quite a long time if you don't have to move very far. Time enough to get into a car and drive to high ground, assuming the roads aren't clogged by too many other people doing the same thing, or to get to a tsunami shelter, which we've been shown were constructed.

In any town larger than a small village, an evacuation will turn into a traffic jam.

 

[Corsair 115]

When I wrote the airline post I was specifically thinking of an airline crash (I don't remember which one) which was caused by the failure of all triple redundant systems.

Might you be thinking of United 232 from 1989? That one involved a DC-10 which had an explosion in its centre engine which shredded the lines for all three hydraulic systems (a situation which was thought impossible) causing a complete loss of hydraulic fluid and a near-total loss of flight control (the crew could still steer the jet by varying thrust on each of the remaining two engines).

The flight, just moments away from a potentially successful emergency landing in a cornfield, dipped a wing which dug into the ground and caused the aircraft to cartwheel and come apart. In spite of this 185 of the 296 passengers and crew aboard survived.

 

[Rolfe]

In any town larger than a small village, an evacuation will turn into a traffic jam.

Not if there have been drills, and contingency plans are in effect. Or not necessarily, anyway.

Rolfe.

 

[jayh]

I think you're missing a point here. One of the main problems in getting people out of a danger zone is reluctance to leave pets behind. One of the main factors impelling them to go back in is the desire to rescue a pet. Arrangements for evacuating companion animals are essential if only for this reason.

Rolfe.

While my personal risk is probably only local flooding from the nearby river, if I were evacuating, my dog comes with.

 

[Bill Thompson]

www.redcross.org

By the way, we have lots of American military bases there. Has anyone heard what The Command In Chief has done to help the Japanese or the Amerricans in Japan? Has anyone whose family is in Japan heard what The State Department is doing to secure the welfare of Americans or the Japanese in Japan?

 

[Rolfe]

While my personal risk is probably only local flooding from the nearby river, if I were evacuating, my dog comes with.

I have a frail elderly person to worry about, and of course she would come first. But in reality I'd probably be scooping her and the cat up together.

If it was just me and the cat, we'd be off on foot scaling the hill beside the house. But with elderly person, it would be necessary to get the car and find a road leading up a different hill.

The point is, I don't have this thought through because the chances of a tsunami in inland Scotland are zero. And the river couldn't threaten any more than property damage. The people in Japan knew they were at risk, and didn't just have a plan, they had specific safe structures to head for. With fifteen minutes, it shouldn't have been headless chickens, it should have been people purposefully doing what they knew they had to do.

Sadly, due to the sheer scale, it wasn't going to be enough for far too many people.

Rolfe.

 

[Kestrel]

Not if there have been drills, and contingency plans are in effect. Or not necessarily, anyway.

Rolfe.

If there are dozens of different routes to safety, you might be able to avoid it. But in a lot of cases, there will be a choke point. For example, if everyone has to drive over the same bridge to leave town.

 

[MG1962]

The people in Japan knew they were at risk, and didn't just have a plan, they had specific safe structures to head for. With fifteen minutes, it shouldn't have been headless chickens, it should have been people purposefully doing what they knew they had to do.

In general thats what did happen. I've heard reports that in some coastal villages, people knew they could not get the elderly to saftey in time and moved them to the highest point in the house and hoped

In New Zealand, many coastal villages have a designated point to head to. Often a headland, as soon as the warning would sound. No discussion...go go go.

Its safe to say anywhere with reasonable expectations of nature cutting loose are aware of a basic what to do list.

In the town I am in in Kansas, you are always aware of the safe and not so safe places to head for in case of tornado. And this is a town thats never has a significant touch down in a 100 years - And yes I just put a hex on the place lol

 

[William Parcher]

We discussed earlier in the thread that there was a 15-minute warning of the tsunami. That's quite a long time if you don't have to move very far. Time enough to get into a car and drive to high ground, assuming the roads aren't clogged by too many other people doing the same thing, or to get to a tsunami shelter, which we've been shown were constructed.

We don't really even see stragglers or people bolting at the last moments. Nearly all video shows no sign of humanity. Sometimes via the helicopters you can see roads leading away from the cities. For the most part they look deserted as if everybody left a long time ago.

I wonder if what we are mainly seeing is video taken 30-40 minutes after the public warnings.

 

[William Parcher]

I know that helicopters can be scrambled pretty quickly, but we get to watch the approach of the tsunami. As if there was enough time to get airborne and into key filming positions.

 

[MG1962]

We don't really even see stragglers or people bolting at the last moments. Nearly all video shows no sign of humanity. Sometimes via the helicopters you can see roads leading away from the cities. For the most part they look deserted as if everybody left a long time ago.

I wonder if what we are mainly seeing is video taken 30-40 minutes after the public warnings.

Yeah I agree - there is only one video I have seen where it is obvious people are about to die, and thats not even center shot. Maybe the media is choosing not to show those images