Split Thread 7WTC - controlled demolition or fire and damage induced collapse?

I'm not an expert in any of this stuff. The opinion of experts is all I have. The world's experts disagree with you. Exactly WHY should I believe you? You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but considering your obvious ideological bias, is your opinion REALLY relevant?

ETA: When you get a chance, can you ask Dr. Greening if he suspects 9-11 was an inside job? Thanks.
Some, does not equal all.

Assuming complete agreement is a chronic disease in this forum.

The world has many experts of which a few are in agreement with you, a few are in agreement with me, and the vast majority can't be bothered to study 9/11 at all.

No one is asking you to believe anything.

All that is asked is that you think.

An expert making a sound logical argument (Dr. Greening questioning the NIST's WTC 7 Report) provides you with something to think about.

You can either agree with his well presented reasoning, disagree and provide a reason(s) for doing so, or just succumb to your current bias and blindly insist that he must be wrong.

Is this a discussion forum or a church meeting?

MM
 
An expert making a sound logical argument (Dr. Greening questioning the NIST's WTC 7 Report) provides you with something to think about.


MM

To the degree that Greening questions the WTC7 report, he doesn't disagree with the basic conclusion, that unfought fire was the root cause.

Dr. Greening writes;

"I therefore believe that the National Institute of Standards and Technology, through its Draft Report, has fallen well short of substantiating its own collapse initiation hypothes is but could, on the contrary, be said to have provided evidence that a single column failure, brought on by thermal expansion of floor framing beams and girders, did not precipitate a global collapse of WTC 7 -the reason being that the NIST simulation predicts a slow collapse initiation which was not observed.

Therefore I believe that an alternative collapse initiation and propagation hypothesis is called for -one that more accurately reflects the reality of what happened to WTC 7 on September 11th, 2001."

He does explain his conclusions in greater detail but I didn't want to subject you to more reading than you are comfortable with.

You can read his complete response here;
http://www.cool-places.0catch.com/91...sNCSTAR1-9.pdf
 
To the degree that Greening questions the WTC7 report, he doesn't disagree with the basic conclusion, that unfought fire was the root cause.

Dr. Greening presented a very lengthy paper challenging the NIST final conclusions, of which I quoted just a small portion.

Dr. Greening said:
"Therefore I believe that an alternative collapse initiation and propagation hypothesis is called for -one that more accurately reflects the reality of what happened to WTC 7 on September 11th, 2001.""

Note the language "alternative collapse initiation and propagation hypothesis".

If you read it, you'd see that Dr. Greening's paper focuses on the NIST's inability to make a reasonable argument for a fire-induced collapse.

MM
 
Currently, the only plausible explanation for the collapse of WTC 7 is that it was a controlled demolition.

...
MM
CD? LOL
For paranoid conspiracy theorists who lack knowledge in physics, fire science, structures, and more subjects required to understand reality. Is this appearance preparation for the 9 year celebration of idiotic delusions, like WTC7 CD, by your fellow failed 911 truth movement club of lies members?

What is your degree in? After 8 years you could have a PhD in structures and stop being a paranoid conspiracy theorist spewing lies about 911. What will you do with your next 8 years; spew lies, or gain knowledge?

What is the plausible explanation for spewing lies like you do about 911?

A chemical engineering degree would help you avoid the pitfall of making up lies about an eroded piece of steel. Knowledge is all you need to break free from your moronic delusions on 911. You failed to use evidence, prefer hearsay and lies to form your CD delusion. Is this an early celebration of 9 solid years of delusions based on nothing but paranoid conspiracy theories and moronic nonsense? See you next year when you have to expose your failed ideas again. Where you been?
 
Dr. Greening presented a very lengthy paper challenging the NIST final conclusions, of which I quoted just a small portion.

answer the question. Do you think Dr. Greening thinks that 9-11 was NOT perpetrated by 19 Islamic extremists hijacking airliners and flying them into buildings? Because that what this sub-forum is all about.
 
And Dr. Quintere has issues with the NIST report too. Does HE also think that 9-11 was NOT perpetrated by 19 Islamic extremists flying planes into buildings?
 
Christopher, Christopher, Christopher. You're dodging and your own claims are contradictory. Here's how:

1) You agree that the period at freefall was about 15% of the total collapse time.
Now then, according to both Chandler and NIST, that was roughly 2.25 to 2.5s.
Doing the math, it results in a total collapse time of 14 to 15s.
Curtain wall descent = roughly 7s
Freefall accel happened during that interval
Previous interval was 7 to 8s (From the time the East Penthouse descended into the building).

Freefall period was about halfway during the entire collapse. Definitely and conclusively NOT at the start of the collapse, as in a controlled demolition.

Sorry, but your claims are simply not supported by the documentary evidence. They are wrong by any standard worth mentioning.

2) The dodge. The question was 'Please tell us, how does this in any way resemble any CD which you can refer to? Please do tell.'
Just to be crystal clear, we are demanding that you show us another controlled demolition where the freefall acceleration happened about halfway thru it - as opposed to the beginning of it, as we would expect.

I was not requesting another assertion that Dan Rather thought so. That is not and example of another CD with the same characteristics. And incidentally when you quotemine Dan Rather, you seem to miss that he said it was 'reminiscent'. I don't think Rather's claim is correctly interpreted as an expert opinion, nor did he claim it actually was a controlled demolition. Be careful you don't put words in his mouth. That wouldn't be honest. ;)

3)I wrote 'Proof of CD is not just a brief period such as that.'
That means that there are a host of other vital criteria which need to be fulfilled in order for a collapse to be a controlled demolition. Normally this is very clear; demolition crews work for weeks to prepare buildings; permits are obtained; public announcements are made; large explosions are then seen and heard; much additional evidence of cutter charges and wires are present. In the case of the WTC buildings and WTC7, all of that evidence is lacking. And further damning the CD theory, there is the problem of how explosives could be used without blowing out the windows - there is zero evidence to demonstrate how this could have happened - just more bare assertion fallacies.
Nevermind the fact that not one single witness out of 10's of thousands of people reported seeing a single piece of controlled demolition equipment being placed into any of the buildings. That's a whole lot of lack of evidence right there...
That's the proof of CD which is required.

Your reply 'FFA for 100 feet can only occur when all the supporting structure has been removed' (that 2.25s interval out of 14 or 15s, remember?) is not sufficient proof of CD. It never will be. That is because the other criteria are not met, and the fact that structure was not there is not in dispute by anybody with any significant grasp of the subject - we already know the building was collapsing internally for about 8 seconds prior to the period which contains the FFA.
So we already have the mechanism for the removal of the structure. It is only you and other truthers who cannot bear to face this simple reality.

Your efforts to cloud the subject and insert these fallacies are failing. It should (but won't) bother you that you are burdened with offering such fallacies after nearly 9 years of Truther investigoogling and posturing.

One wonders when you will actually come up with some evidence to support your theories. Perhaps in another 9 years?
 
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CD? LOL
For paranoid conspiracy theorists who lack knowledge in physics, fire science, structures, and more subjects required to understand reality. Is this appearance preparation for the 9 year celebration of idiotic delusions, like WTC7 CD, by your fellow failed 911 truth movement club of lies members?

What is your degree in? After 8 years you could have a PhD in structures and stop being a paranoid conspiracy theorist spewing lies about 911. What will you do with your next 8 years; spew lies, or gain knowledge?

What is the plausible explanation for spewing lies like you do about 911?

A chemical engineering degree would help you avoid the pitfall of making up lies about an eroded piece of steel. Knowledge is all you need to break free from your moronic delusions on 911. You failed to use evidence, prefer hearsay and lies to form your CD delusion. Is this an early celebration of 9 solid years of delusions based on nothing but paranoid conspiracy theories and moronic nonsense? See you next year when you have to expose your failed ideas again. Where you been?

As usual, all you are providing is rant without substance.

MM
 
answer the question. Do you think Dr. Greening thinks that 9-11 was NOT perpetrated by 19 Islamic extremists hijacking airliners and flying them into buildings? Because that what this sub-forum is all about.
Your question is to Dr. Greening, not me.

I know he doesn't agree with the NIST conclusions about the cause
of the WTC 7 collapse because he wrote a very thorough paper about it.

If you are truly concerned about 9/11 Conspiracies, which this forum is about,
than you should be disturbed by Dr. Greening's findings.

It is very telling that you don't appear to care.

MM
 
To the degree that Greening questions the WTC7 report, he doesn't disagree with the basic conclusion, that unfought fire was the root cause.


No, you don't get it! When one expert disagrees with another expert, that supports -- in fact practically proves -- all the theories that neither expert agrees with!

Ask the Creationists, they'll tell you.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Your question is to Dr. Greening, not me.

I know he doesn't agree with the NIST conclusions about the cause
of the WTC 7 collapse because he wrote a very thorough paper about it.

If you are truly concerned about 9/11 Conspiracies, which this forum is about,
than you should be disturbed by Dr. Greening's findings.

It is very telling that you don't appear to care.

MM

Nice dodge. Greening used to post on this forum, and IIRC he in NO uncertain terms disagrees with the ultimate conclusion of the investigation of that day, that 19 Islamic terrorists crashed planes on 9-11.

So what is your point? I'll leave the engineering and scientific discussions to engineers and scientists. All I want to know is if there is any doubt that Bin Laden and Al Queda were responsible for 9-11. There is not. In fact, the fact that Greening and others critical with the NIST STILL don't disagree with this basic premise should make you go hmmmm when you start to go all conspiracy and such.
 
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WRONG!

From the Executive summary, NIST NCSTAR 1-9A;

"The floor framing structure was thermally weakened at Floors 8 to 14, with the most substantial damage occurring in the east region of Floors 12, 13, and 14."

"After the fire-induced ANSYS damage was applied, floor sections surrounding Columns 79 to 81 on Floors 13 and 14 collapsed to the floors below."

"Once Columns 79, 80, and 81 buckled, the column sections above Floor 14 began to descend downward and pulled the floor structures downward with them, thereby creating a vertical progression of floor collapses."

MM

First, it's pretty amusing that NIST is wrong about everything until you quote NIST in order to further your own argument. THEN their opinion suddenly counts.

Second, your quotes reinforce my point. The collapse did NOT start at the bottom as it does in a controlled demolition. Thanks for that, although I'm quite sure it wasn't your intention.
 
BigAl said:
"Greening questions the NIST theory but nowhere does he suggest that fire wasn't the basic cause of the collapse."
You agree that Dr. Greening questions the NIST theory.

The NIST Theory is that fire was the basic cause of the collapse.

Then you say; "but nowhere does he [Dr. Greening] suggest that fire wasn't the basic cause of the collapse."

Dr. Greening found no validity in the NIST fire calculations, finding them to be unsupported by any evidence the NIST presented, and goes on to state; "Therefore I believe that an alternative collapse initiation and propagation hypothesis is called for -one that more accurately reflects the reality of what happened to WTC 7 on September 11th, 2001.", and you have the mandacity to suggest that Dr. Greening makes no suggestion that fire wasn't the basic cause of the collapse.

Absolutely amazing.

MM
 
You agree that Dr. Greening questions the NIST theory.

The NIST Theory is that fire was the basic cause of the collapse.

Then you say; "but nowhere does he [Dr. Greening] suggest that fire wasn't the basic cause of the collapse."

Dr. Greening found no validity in the NIST fire calculations, finding them to be unsupported by any evidence the NIST presented, and goes on to state; "Therefore I believe that an alternative collapse initiation and propagation hypothesis is called for -one that more accurately reflects the reality of what happened to WTC 7 on September 11th, 2001.", and you have the mandacity to suggest that Dr. Greening makes no suggestion that fire wasn't the basic cause of the collapse.

Absolutely amazing.

MM

Questioning where it initiated and how it propagated isn't the same thing as saying fires didn't do it.
 

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