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7/7 academic woo?

Thank you for all these responses. It will help to improve the paper under discussion.

The focus in the paper is clearly on the evidence of events at Canary Wharf, and two points of differece on train times and what happened to the four men after the tube trains exploded. Daniel Obachike is not the focus of the paper and is introduced only to provide evidence that Peter Power's account is contested (more below). In any attempt at advancing knowledge, it will be the case that points are challenged and clarifications will be achieved through dialogue with other people so I'm grateful to people for reading the paper and identifying new arguments that can be considered in producing a new version next year.

You advanced the theory that the four bombers were part of Power's "exercise," but the only corroboration you offered that it was not desk/office-based was Obachike's claims. You therefore have no corroboration. This is quite apart from the fact that if it did involve people on the ground, why is there no other witness or documentary evidence to back that up?

As to the question of what I believe - I have no firm view yet other than that the official account does not make sense. The fact that men may have been attacked or shot at Canary Wharf does not mean that these are the four men who were blamed for the tube explosions (nor does the paper claim this). It does point out, however, that John Hill's theory is better able to account for something that no other theory of 7th July is able to explain. This being the case, due consideration should be given to this alternative theory. The paper advances the debate by providing all the newspaper / blog / discussion forum references to the shootings that it was possible to find with the resources available to me. These references do not support the official government account. That's not a controversial statement, in my view. As a result, a different account of the day is required.

Nobody is disputing that the newspaper, blog, etc. reports exist; what is disputed is that they are true, rather than merely wild rumour. Thousands of people work at Canary Wharf, yet no-one has subsequently come forward as an eye-witness. There has been no leak from within the security services. If the men supposedly shot were the bombers, that would mean that the pathologists who carried out the post-mortems on their bodies are lying, along with all the other forensic experts who placed them at the bombing sites. What is more credible? A vast and seemingly water-tight conspiracy, or people just repeating rumours in the heat of the moment, some of which found their way into predominently foreign media in the least position to confirm their veracity?

As for Daniel Obachike, reference to his interview with Alex Jones and his book are provided only to show that Peter Power's account is contested. I make no claim beyond this. Given that it has been raised, it is worth discussing the interview with Alex Jones. In this interview, Obachike provides detailed and specific information on the person he alleges was 'faking' injury. Alex Jones himself says that he and his staff (however controversial or problematic this may be) checked out the story themselves and verified with people involved with the bus that it was singled out on the day for diversion. Daniel Obachike's account is contested - I can point this out in revisions - so there is a question that needs to be answered by all here.

You are just digging yourself deeper. The No. 30 was not the only bus that was diverted; the diversion was a perfectly natural one, given that the No. 30 route would have taken it past the front of Kings Cross station, which at the time had become congested with emergency service vehicles attending it as an access point to the Piccadilly line train. The route the bus took to and through Tavistock Square is a major thoroughfare, with plenty of pedestrian traffic at that time of the morning, not some sleepy side-street. There would have been scores of potential euewitnesses, yet not have reported seeing anything along the lines of Obachike's claims. Alex Jones has an agenda that makes anything he claims effectively worthless.

Why do people believe those who attack Daniel Obachike's account rather than Daniel Obachike's account? Why do people believe Peter Power (who has a career advantage in manipulating the media) over other witnesses (who have no experience of manipulating the media). These are pertinent questions.

Is this a case of believing who you want to believe to avoid the dissonance created by a controversial account or theory? Researchers are aware of the impact of 'cognitive dissonance' (indeed, I discuss the effects of cognitive dissonance with new researchers). It is the psychological process by which all people (including researchers) reduce their distress by accepting false accounts. It enables them to avoid examining controversial or contradictory evidence.
You might also wish to aquaint yourself with the concept of "lying". Obachike not only could not have made the journey he claims that would have resulted in him being on the No. 30 bus, but the very fact that he would chose to take that route makes no sense in relation to where he was living.

I've not read Obachike's book, but I have read discussions of his book by those who have read it. Daniel Obachike's book is a publication that captures the material in his internet blog. However imperfect that may be, others who have read the book state clearly that it documents the treatment he received by the police/anti-terrorist authorities after he was found on / near the Tavistock Square bus. He didn't cash in by writing a book straightaway. He started a blog documenting his treatment. After 7 months there were 440,000 people reading his blog (creating the market for a book). This being the case, the book is based on the blog (and retains spelling mistakes etc.). This does not appear to me to be the work of someone who set out to write a book about the 7/7 bombing - it was an accident of history that people were sufficiently interested in what was happening to him to make a book possible.

I don't expect - if it is a blog - for it to be an accurate detailed history. It does, however, provide clear evidence that there is a challenge to the official account of the fourth bomb. Nor is this the only evidence. The J7 web-site details another woman who refused to confirm there was only one bomb. She maintained there were two. (She was later found dead, allegedly committed 'suicide'). There is sufficient evidence, from more than one source, to question the official account of what occured at Tavistock Square, nor is Daniel Obachike the only person claiming that planted 'witnesses' were talking to the media. Further examples are available at J7 (based on YouTube video footage) of people talking about events, and their injuries, before people from the tube network had time to reach the surface.

I would suggest that you actually read Obachike's book before you continue to defend his claims. That fact that he IDed an actual Russell Square victim as his Tavistock Square "actor" does not make it true. Obachike has also presented what he claims is CCTV footage of himself in Tavistock Square to "prove" that he was there minutes after the explosion, even though close examination of that footage shows that it was shot at least an hour after he says he left the area.

I presume that the woman you are referring to is Richmal Oates-Whitehead, the New Zealand-born fantasist who fabricated medical qualifications to get a job with the BMA, and died of a natural cause a few weeks after 7/7:

New Zealand Herald: The colourful life and sad death of a fabulist
The Guardian: The fantasy life and lonely death of woman hailed as heroine of July 7 bombing

Clearly not the most credible of witnesses.

I am open to revising the paper for next year's classes based on the conversations we have here, providing the information provided can checks out (in the same way that John Hill's account was not presented in a paper until it too had checked out against the sources used).

A note on sources. The idea that some sources are 'credible' and some are not is the argument of a partisan person who is not interested in the truth. Whatever account is given, there is a reason for it. A good social scientist, particularly one writing from a critical perspective, does not dismiss a person's account without evidence, and does not dismiss a person's account if part of it turns out to be untrue. The BBC documentary can be seen in the same light. Even though it contains statements that are problematic - it was made to serve a purpose and contains some useful information not available elsewhere. It was produced for a reason, in a particular political context (i.e. the sending of 7/7 Ripple Effect to a judge in a court case about 7/7). The political/social reasons for producing misleading accounts can be as interesting as the reasons for providing a 'truthful' one.

Those in this thread, therefore, who are not interested in false statements are not social scientists. They are using natural science logic which should be rejected when dealing with issues of social science. Natural science logic is not helpful in seeking to understand accounts of events that serve various social or political purposes. These purposes are discussed in the paper and the 'bias' (if this is the term you prefer) of both documentaries is assessed and drawn to the attention of the reader.

Why some people chose to lie is, of course, interesting, but that does not mean that their claims should be treated with anything other than the contempt they deserve. A witness may be mistake by confusion, what they actually saw, etc., but if they make multiple claims of events and actions that are literally impossible, what credibility can be placed on the things they claim that can't be verified or disproved?
 
A note on sources. The idea that some sources are 'credible' and some are not is the argument of a partisan person who is not interested in the truth.


Those in this thread, therefore, who are not interested in false statements are not social scientists. They are using natural science logic which should be rejected when dealing with issues of social science.

Really? Law is a social science and I'm fairly certain I know what response you'd get if you tried running these arguments in a courtroom.

IA:

Why some people chose to lie is, of course, interesting, but that does not mean that their claims should be treated with anything other than the contempt they deserve. A witness may be mistake by confusion, what they actually saw, etc., but if they make multiple claims of events and actions that are literally impossible, what credibility can be placed on the things they claim that can't be verified or disproved?

Exactly.
 
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OK, here goes....

In his book, Obachike implies that his usual route to work that week involved walking from his home to Enfield Town railway station, catching the 08:27 train to Liverpool Street station, then changing to the London Underground to complete the journey to his office at Old Street. Logically this would mean taking a Circle/Metropolitan/Hammersmith & City line train to Moorgate station, then changing to the northbound Northern line to go one stop to Old Street station. Obachike says that this would get him to his desk before, "the petulant manager came a-hovering minutes after 9" (p. 5).

I used to live in Seven Sisters. That is an utterly ass backwards way of traveling to Old Street. The sane way is to get off at Seven Sisters andn take the 243 bus, which goes directly to Old Street.

He's essentially saying his regular route to work would overshoot his destination, and then get two trains to compensate to get back to where he wanted to go.
 
RoryRidRuff said:
It does point out, however, that John Hill's theory is better able to account for something that no other theory of 7th July is able to explain.

This would be the same Mr Hill who claims he is the true king of the UK and Israeli, John Hill

On 13/June/1988, in fulfillment of prophecy, Muad’Dib served a High Court Writ upon the British Parliament, at court in the City of Sheffield, demanding that He be acknowledged by Parliament as the Rightful British-Israel King. As soon as He takes power, He will immediately repeal all man-made “laws” which are all illegal according to God’s Law, and which enable the rich to “legally” steal from everyone else. He will also re-institute the "Year of Release", which is the forgiveness of debt every seven years, and the REAL "Jubilee" and begin to redistribute their share of the wealth that has been stolen from them back to the poor, and ban usury. The ban on private gun ownership will be repealed. All will have exactly the same powers to arrest persons committing real crimes.

http://mtrial.org/muaddib/reasons
 
I used to live in Seven Sisters. That is an utterly ass backwards way of traveling to Old Street. The sane way is to get off at Seven Sisters andn take the 243 bus, which goes directly to Old Street.

He's essentially saying his regular route to work would overshoot his destination, and then get two trains to compensate to get back to where he wanted to go.
Yes, but then that was trying to make sense of his stated instention of taking the Victoria line all the way into King's Cross. A more logical option would have been to only take it to Highbury & Islington and switch to the WAGN line into Old Street in 5-8 minutes, which is obviously a quick cross-platform interchange there. That, of course, immediately begs the question of why someone who lived in Enfield wouldn't get one of the same trains direct from Enfield Chase in the first place. I said in Obachike's case the difference was an extra 420 metres walk, but obviously he could have hopped on a bus if one was passing, as well.
 
Yes, but then that was trying to make sense of his stated instention of taking the Victoria line all the way into King's Cross. A more logical option would have been to only take it to Highbury & Islington and switch to the WAGN line into Old Street in 5-8 minutes, which is obviously a quick cross-platform interchange there. That, of course, immediately begs the question of why someone who lived in Enfield wouldn't get one of the same trains direct from Enfield Chase in the first place. I said in Obachike's case the difference was an extra 420 metres walk, but obviously he could have hopped on a bus if one was passing, as well.

Agreed I used to close to Seven Sisters, and later Bruce Grove. In fact I moved to Seven Sisters several weeks before the bombing. I've traveled the Edmonton Line in both directions many times, taking my dogs up to Cheshunt, and travelling into Liverpool St, and Soho, I cannot fault your logic.

I find it hilarious that one of the man arguments about the 7/7 bombers is the "impossible" journey from Leeds, yet heres the guy used constantly to prove the Bus bomb was "staged" coming up with this absolutely bat guano commute for himself, that doesn't make sense on a normal day to day basis never mind the strange journey he "took" that day.
 
Although there are obvious and unfortunate similarities, in no way can this be described as, "precisely the same locations," as in real life.

Unfortunate? I'd say this is only evidence that the ones who designed the exercise were doing their job properly. It's their job to determine where terrorist attacks are most likely to occur, after all.

McHrozni
 
Unfortunate? I'd say this is only evidence that the ones who designed the exercise were doing their job properly. It's their job to determine where terrorist attacks are most likely to occur, after all.

McHrozni


Not to mention that Kings Cross is an excellent choice for the exercise. There was an extensive fire there in the 80s, and the report into that detailed how the station was evacuated.
 
Rubbish. Sources are credible if their statements accord with the evidence. Sources are not credible if their statements do not accord with reality.



Again this is rubbish. Evidence has been provided to show that at least some of the claims entertained in your article are physically impossible.

No amount of handwaving about the nature of truth can alter the fact that the events (irrespective of whether they occured according to the accepted narrative) of that day happened in the physical world .



It is, if those statements can be shown to be inconsistent with reality.


You are forgetting that you are making assumptions about reality based on your own theory of what that reality is. There is no escape from your own perception and cognition. On what is this perception and cognition based? It is based on your theory of what happened that day.

Virtually every philosopher of note would accept that even if there is an objective reality 'out there', no human can access it except through their own perception of it. So all this talk of being 'consistent with reality' shows your lack of knowledge of both philosophy and research. Law - of course - operates on the conceit that an objective reality can be both accessed and perceived. But what you are talking - in effect - is about consistency or inconsistency with your theory of reality. We have different theories (at the moment), so there is room for discussion.

I would urge you to move beyond seeing everything from the perspective of a correspondence theory of truth. The paper can help you with that.

Rory
 
You say:

"You advanced the theory that the four bombers were part of Power's "exercise," but the only corroboration you offered that it was not desk/office-based was Obachike's claims. You therefore have no corroboration. This is quite apart from the fact that if it did involve people on the ground, why is there no other witness or documentary evidence to back that up?"

You've clearly not read the paper. I don't advance this theory. John Hill advances this theory. I set out both the BBC/Government theory and John Hill's theory and then evaluate them. I don't put forward a theory of my own.

In evaluating these theories using a coherence theory of truth, the paper offers additional evidence based on the statistical probability of the official and alternative theory being true. So, you have a choice of believing something that is less likely that winning the lottery at the first attempt (the 'official' theory) or something that is almost 100% likely (the 'alternative' theory). We're talking here about the likelihood of four men choosing the same day, same number and location of targets at roughly the same time as Peter Power. If they were not invited to participate by Peter Power, the chances of this are less likely than winning the lottery at the first attempt. If they were invited, the likelihood is almost 100% certain.

Best wishes
Rory


As for 'other' evidence of witness, there are other examples on the J7 web site (as mentioned in another post). I used one well known example to illustrate the contested nature of Peter Power's statements.

Best wishes
Rory
 
Why the obsession with Obachike?

You say:

"I would suggest that you actually read Obachike's book before you continue to defend his claims."

I don't defend his claims. I set out what the claims are, and how they are different from the claims of Peter Power. The only point made in the paper is that Peter Power's statements are contested. This is self-evidently true.

If we're getting into the question of how reliable witnesses are, then we can ask why Peter Power was moved to another police force rather than face a police inquiry. His honesty is also under serious doubt. He too is 'not a reliable witness'. Why are you not drawing attention to this? (I could have done, but chose not to).

In any case, as far as 7/7 Ripple Effect goes, Peter Power is not accused of lying - he is theorised as either a dupe or an accomplice. In a subsequent interview, John Hill discusses at length the evidence for Peter Power being a dupe, rather than an accomplice. He does raise the question - entirely reasonable in my view - of why he was not questioned by police about 7th July 2005.

So let's put Daniel Obachike to bed. There are, at most, two sentences in a 10,000 word paper that refer to one interview he gave (and one reference to his book to support a claim that Peter Power's account is contested). That Peter Power's statements are contested is a fact, even if you do not believe the person who is contesting Peter Power's account.

Why not turn attention to the substance of the paper? Why not turn attention to the substantial amount of evidence presented about Canary Wharf (this is the title of the paper, after all)?

There are eye-witness accounts even though people continue to claim there are not. Why is this?

Best wishes
Rory
 
Sorry mate, this is embarassing. You should not be teaching anyone anything. Especially after giving a list of sources including the kings of woo.

7/7 CT's are junk.

Bring your best Canary Wharf stuff here.
 
You say:

"You advanced the theory that the four bombers were part of Power's "exercise," but the only corroboration you offered that it was not desk/office-based was Obachike's claims. You therefore have no corroboration. This is quite apart from the fact that if it did involve people on the ground, why is there no other witness or documentary evidence to back that up?"

You've clearly not read the paper.
Now you really are being patronising. I've read it several times. If you want, I can give you a point-by-point breakdown of all the errors, misassumptions, and untruths that you have fallen for.
I don't advance this theory. John Hill advances this theory. I set out both the BBC/Government theory and John Hill's theory and then evaluate them. I don't put forward a theory of my own.
No, you inherently advance it by treating it as credible, based on "evidence" that does not bear close examination. Conspiracists are adept at cherry-picking the "evidence" that fits their theories, whilst ignoring anything that contradicts them. Your mistake has been in only looking at what the conspiracists have said, which naturally will not include anything so obviously contradictory.
In evaluating these theories using a coherence theory of truth, the paper offers additional evidence based on the statistical probability of the official and alternative theory being true. So, you have a choice of believing something that is less likely that winning the lottery at the first attempt (the 'official' theory) or something that is almost 100% likely (the 'alternative' theory). We're talking here about the likelihood of four men choosing the same day, same number and location of targets at roughly the same time as Peter Power. If they were not invited to participate by Peter Power, the chances of this are less likely than winning the lottery at the first attempt. If they were invited, the likelihood is almost 100% certain.
I find it rather incredible that you are continuing to repeat the myth about Power's locations being "the same" as those in real life, since it is clear from the map that I posted that they were not. At best, one explosion in real life was on a train moving away from one of Power's locations (Liverpool Street), whilst another (the Picadilly line train) was between two of his (King's Cross & Russell Square). His fourth location (Chancery Lane) was nowhere near either of the other two actual explosions (Edgware Road & Tavistock Square). The real explosions were on trains in transit; Power's scenario was bombs in stations, one of which being the mainline and not Underground part of it. Similar, but self-evidently not "the same".

As to the idea of four bombers choosing to target three trains in transit and one surface vehicle, that was exactly the scenario of Panorama: London Under Attack in May 2004. What's more likely, three patsies in Leeds being duped by sinister dark forces in London, or three would-be terrorists taking a cue from a TV programme 14 months earlier? It's not rocket science.
As for 'other' evidence of witness, there are other examples on the J7 web site (as mentioned in another post). I used one well known example to illustrate the contested nature of Peter Power's statements.
Well, as far as I can see, the only witnesses you've identified or alluded to are the thoroughly discredited Daniel Obachike, and rather sad fantasist Richmal Oates-Whitehead. Anyone else you want to offer up for this shooting-fish-in-a-barrel exercise?
 
Why not turn attention to the substance of the paper? Why not turn attention to the substantial amount of evidence presented about Canary Wharf (this is the title of the paper, after all)?
Did you bother geograpically mapping the claims in the various reports? Have you assertained how many people would have been at Canary Wharf at the time? Are you aware that Canary Wharf is designated by the police as a high-profile target for terrorist attack, so deployment of a large number of officers there is planned for?
 
Although there are obvious and unfortunate similarities, in no way can this be described as, "precisely the same locations," as in real life.

These are not by any means the only factual errors and mis-assumptions in your paper, which sadly will only encourage the conspiracy theory fringe from which most of them seem to originate. I would also echo JFM's suggestion that you are being patronising, especially in your comment that people should read the paper. I did read it, and the numerous flaws apparent in it were why I brought it to attention here, naturally with a link so that others could read it themselves.

I thank you for sharing this information - I'll check it out for next year's course. At the same time, it is reasonable to point out that both the BBC and 7/7 Ripple Effect documentaries show video footage of Peter Power himself saying that explosions are at almost precisely the same locations as the bombs. If Peter Power says this, it is surely reasonable to express it in these terms in the paper?

Your comment regarding the "conspiracy theory fringe" is interesting - it gives away your attitude somewhat. I'd never questioned 7/7 until 6th September 2009 when I was preparing for a philosophy course. In the past, I'd used 9/11 material and the Madeleine McCann story to illustrate the variability of press reports. I was looking for something new to generate debate about 'truth' (the assignment topic for the course).

I came across the BBC Conspiracy File programme and felt it was a much poorer piece of journalism that I would typically expect from the BBC. It motivated me to watch the 7/7 Ripple Effect documentary to see what the fuss was about. After checking out the sources underpinning the 7/7 Ripple Effect claims about Canary Wharf, and finding they existed and had not been distorted, I did a full search of news databases, blogs and discussion archives. This is the substance of the paper and I would interested if you can find 'numerous flaws' in these press reports. I was extremely careful regarding the discussion of train times. Did you find any 'flaws' here?

You need to remember that I'm putting forward John Hill's and the BBC's theories, not my own. Are you quite sure you are not attributing to me errors that are made by the BBC or John Hill? If you are doing so, then you are clearly seeking to misrepresent both me and the paper.

Best wishes
Rory
 
Your mistake has been in only looking at what the conspiracists have said, which naturally will not include anything so obviously contradictory.

I did a search for every press report from Canary Wharf about a shooting between 7th July and 30th July. I am not, therefore, cherry-picking evidence but presenting the fullest account that anyone has presented on this particular aspect of 7/7. Nor have I ever contributed a paper about 9/11 or 7/7 before to any forum, journal or newspaper. I did so on this occasion because I felt, after watching both documentaries, that the BBC documentary was seriously misleading viewers.

The paper clearly considers the views expressed by journalists at the Times Online, Daily Mail, Independent, the Sunday Telegraph, the BBC and other reputable sources (e.g. Reuters). Are you saying that all these people are conspiracy theorists? Or are you attempting to priviledge some sources over others with which you do not agree?

I took the time and trouble to write to Michael Rudin who produced the BBC series. Are you claiming he is a conspiracy theorist? I quote his response at two different points in the paper to give credence to those claiming press reports are 'hearsay'. The paper draws attention to evidence that contradicts claims in 7/7 Ripple Effect. I made extensive efforts to draw attention to contradictions from the perspective of both documentary makers, and make explicit the political bias of both documentary makers.

I say again - you have either not read the paper properly, with an open mind, or are seeking to deliberately misrepresent both it and me to people in this forum. You clearly have a political reason for doing so that you are not sharing with people here.

As for selectivity, all writing uses evidence selectively. Nobody can include a discussion of everything. And all accounts are socially constructed (including my own): there is no escape from that.

This academic paper is already longer than is normal. Typically, they would be about 6,000 - 8,000 words. I allowed it to grow to 10,000 words in an attempt to do justice to the complexity of the issues under discussion.

Best wishes
Rory
 
Did you bother geograpically mapping the claims in the various reports? Have you assertained how many people would have been at Canary Wharf at the time? Are you aware that Canary Wharf is designated by the police as a high-profile target for terrorist attack, so deployment of a large number of officers there is planned for?


Why are you asking these questions? I CLEARLY address the issue of Canary Wharf being a high profile target in the discussions contained in the paper.

I note the countries in which the reports appear. People can read for themselves which reports are based on eye-witness accounts, and which are not.

By asking these questions you are seeking to imply that they are not obvious to the reader, or have been obscured. They have not been.

I say again. You've either not read the paper, or are deliberately seeking to misrepresent it.

Rory
 
What's more likely, three patsies in Leeds being duped by sinister dark forces in London, or three would-be terrorists taking a cue from a TV programme 14 months earlier? It's not rocket science.

There is no evidence that any of the alleged terrorist watched the Panorama programme. Please provide this evidence if you have it.

So others reading this discussion understand what was actually stated in the latest iteration of the academic paper, I quote it below. As you can see, I ask exactly the same question that you pose:

"The switch to a coherence theory of truth presents an immediate problem for the BBC / Government theory. Concern over the ‘coincidence’ of four bombers attacking London at the precise moment Peter Power was running a mock terrorism exercise led the BBC to record an interview with him in its rebuttal of 7/7 Ripple Effect. Peter Power explains the coincidence as a product of good intelligence from previous attacks by the IRA.

While this may explain the issue of which locations were chosen, it does not explain why the four Muslim men and Peter Power would both choose the same targets. Put simply:

- What is the likelihood that four men living in Leeds would travel to London on the same day, at roughly the same time, to the exact locations selected for a simulated terrorism exercise organised by Peter Power, if they had not been invited to participate?

7/7 Ripple Effect calculates the odds of this occurring by chance as less likely than a person playing the UK National Lottery once in their lifetime and winning the jackpot. This being the case, the BBC / Government theory becomes incoherent and implausible. The key issue is whether it is more likely that four terrorists could infiltrate the organisation of a person who makes his living from providing counter-terrorism training, or that a person making his living from counter terrorism expertise could recruit four Muslim men to make his training materials appear as real as possible?

The issue is crystalised when we reverse the question and ask it from the theoretical perspective of 7/7 Ripple Effect:

- What is the likelihood that four men agreeing to participate in Peter Power’s mock terrorism exercise would travel to the same four locations on the same day, at roughly the same time?

It is not just highly likely, it is almost certain. Occam’s Razor applies."


It would be sensible to change 'exact locations' to 'almost the same locations', but I stress that the language used in the questions above is the same as the language used by Peter Power himself and TV journalists on 7th July.

Hope this clears up any doubt for those following this thread.

Rory
 
You say:

"Well, as far as I can see, the only witnesses you've identified or alluded to are the thoroughly discredited Daniel Obachike, and rather sad fantasist Richmal Oates-Whitehead. Anyone else you want to offer up for this shooting-fish-in-a-barrel exercise?"

Here are a list of the "witnesses" named in the paper:

Peter Power
Daniel Obachike
Pammy (at Ceroc Scotland Forum)
Gus (at Ceroc Scotland Forum)
DavidB (at Ceroc Scotland Forum)
Brendan Spinks (a Canadian "investment banker at HSBC")
Lucy Hyslop (Senior Editor, Daily Telegraph)
James Starnes
Felicity Lawlor

As the paper says:

"The BBC response is helpful, but not entirely persuasive. Globe and Mail name Canadian Brendan Spinks as an eye-witness account of extensive police activity. Lucy Hyslop, who filed a report with the Vancouver Sun, describes the situation that day, as well as the lock down that occurred at Canary Wharf where she works. As a “senior editor” at the Daily Telegraph, she is an accessible media source, and her story includes a claim that a friend called her regarding the shootings. James Starnes, a citizen reporter, is his own ‘eye-witness’ to a radio station that was carrying a story about a shooting. All these people could be traced to clarify what they witnessed first hand, and establish how the story broke. While the BBC response correctly states that no reporter, blogger or forum contributor claims to be an eye witness to the shootings, the blogs and discussion forum contributions are verbatim first hand reports, carrying more credibility than second-hand BBC reports. Their credibility does not depend on endorsement or confirmation by a government or state authority."

Are you going to let this go yet?

Rory
 

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