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'6th Sense'

Horatius said:
I'm pretty sure we've had a thread about rogue waves before. Unless you're planning to hit a ninja with one*, you guys should look that thread up, and go there!
*And if you are planning to do that, I'm behind you all the way!
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I actually have zero interest in rogue waves. I'm more interested in getting Rodney to understand the limits of anecdotal evidence.
 
arthwollipot said:
I would be willing to try to "fool" this sense. I would stand behind you with my sword raised, ready for a strike. You would put on a steel helmet, becaise I'd be hitting you quite hard with a blunt steel sword, and sit directly under my sword with your eyes closed. I would wait motionless for a random length of time before striking.
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I'd actually take that bet, except that I couldn't do it in a helmet. Which means that I'd rather you not use a steel sword.

Hm. Actually, I dunno if it would _work_ with a sword. With a bokken, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to sense it, because I've done the equivalent with mop handles and toy light sabers. It's all about the displaced air.
 
e-sabbath said:
I'd actually take that bet, except that I couldn't do it in a helmet. Which means that I'd rather you not use a steel sword.

Hm. Actually, I dunno if it would _work_ with a sword. With a bokken, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to sense it, because I've done the equivalent with mop handles and toy light sabers. It's all about the displaced air.
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Are you talking about sensing the displaced air as he strikes? Because that would be some awfully fast reflexes, if you are.

But it would be interesting to try to come up with a protocol to test this, to see if he's really sensing the "intention" to attack, or some subtle physical cue.


Things we would need:

  • Uniform lighting, from the front, to avoid shadows that might give away the attack.
  • A solid (concrete?) floor, to reduce vibrations/flexing.
  • Tight fitting clothes on the swordsman, to reduce rustling/air movement.
  • Isolated from observers, to eliminate seeing people react to the swordsman's movements.
  • Swordsman willing and able to cut from a ready posture without windup or any noise.
  • Some means of randomly determining when to cut, and conveying that to the swordsman undetected.
  • A determination of how close to the cut the "avoidance" would have to be, to count as a hit.
  • Blindfold and earplugs for the ninja?


Anything else?
 
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paximperium said:
I actually have zero interest in rogue waves. I'm more interested in getting Rodney to understand the limits of anecdotal evidence.
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Ditto. He keeps introducing the idea of physical evidence as if to support the idea that anecdotal evidence is valuable.
 
Wouldn't this make a good Mythbusters segment? See if someone can get out of the way when they know it's coming, then when they don't know and a person is wielding the sword and then with the obligatory robot wielding the sword. Not sure how to fit an explosion in there but I'm sure they could figure out something.
 
Horatius said:
Anything else?
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Well, it would be nice to rig a simple mechanism to randomly drop a sword, too. Such that the participant does not know if its a human or machine he's working with.

Since we're talking about sensing the sword holder's intent to strike, it would be nice to have a control that can have no intent.
 
Horatius said:
Are you talking about sensing the displaced air as he strikes? Because that would be some awfully fast reflexes, if you are.
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I didn't say I could dodge it well, just that I could react. :) But yeah, if I'm lucky, I'm fairly good at detecting things entering 'my personal space'. I have a theory about peripheral vision combined with feeling air pressure on my hair.

Note: Lucky is defined as 'I have the reflexes of a sloth with low blood sugar, though.'
 
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e-sabbath said:
I didn't say I could dodge it well, just that I could react. :)
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Well, okay then. Speaking as a swordsman, I don't care if I split you in thirds lengthwise, rather than in half - you're still dead! ;)


And that's the biggest problem with all these exercises - swords are nasty enough that even a bad cut is still usually enough to take a person out of the fight!
 
madurobob said:
Well, it would be nice to rig a simple mechanism to randomly drop a sword, too. Such that the participant does not know if its a human or machine he's working with.

Since we're talking about sensing the sword holder's intent to strike, it would be nice to have a control that can have no intent.
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That's true, but we have to ensure that the mechanism itself doesn't give off any cues, like clicks or something , just prior to the cut. Even a fraction of a second warning would be enough for some people.
 
Horatius said:
Well, okay then. Speaking as a swordsman, I don't care if I split you in thirds lengthwise, rather than in half - you're still dead! ;)


And that's the biggest problem with all these exercises - swords are nasty enough that even a bad cut is still usually enough to take a person out of the fight!
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You know during kendo keikos, my sparring partners are so fact that I can barely see their shinai strikes and yet I somehow react fast enough to block these strikes.

I believe the combination of muscle memory and just plain in built learnt "reflexes" help a whole lot. When I see the higher dan guys spar, their speed is almost supernatural...the senseis judging the strikes have vision that is also almost supernatural.
 
paximperium said:
You know during kendo keikos, my sparring partners are so fact that I can barely see their shinai strikes and yet I somehow react fast enough to block these strikes.

I believe the combination of muscle memory and just plain in built learnt "reflexes" help a whole lot. When I see the higher dan guys spar, their speed is almost supernatural...the senseis judging the strikes have vision that is also almost supernatural.
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I've seen, and done, the same thing. There was one class, where the best player in the club backed me into the wall, just as another person backed into the same bit of wall - so he had me trapped. The guy I was playing against then launched about 4 rapid fire strikes against me, and I just flowed along, and blocked all of them. Totally amazing, that was.

If only I could do things like that consistently!
 
e-sabbath said:
I'd actually take that bet, except that I couldn't do it in a helmet. Which means that I'd rather you not use a steel sword.
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Why would you not be able to do it in a helmet? I'm suggesting a spangenhelm, not a great helm.

e-sabbath said:
Hm. Actually, I dunno if it would _work_ with a sword. With a bokken, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to sense it, because I've done the equivalent with mop handles and toy light sabers. It's all about the displaced air.
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If it's all about displaced air, then it would actually be a lot harder to avoid a steel sword than a bokken. It would also be harder to avoid an English mortuary sword than a katana. Both a katana and a bokken are thicker than an English sword and displace more air. That's one reason why I would want to do the test with a steel sword, preferably of a European design.
 
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Horatius said:
I've seen, and done, the same thing. There was one class, where the best player in the club backed me into the wall, just as another person backed into the same bit of wall - so he had me trapped. The guy I was playing against then launched about 4 rapid fire strikes against me, and I just flowed along, and blocked all of them. Totally amazing, that was.

If only I could do things like that consistently!
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I've got video of me doing that kind of blocking, but YouTube is blocked here at work. Search YouTube for "AAF Norman Knight Fight" and you should find it, or get the MPG at http://www.aaf.org.au/gallery/videos/displays/bergmann-anglican-school/MOV05211.MPG (21.1Mb download...). The bit I'm thinking of occurs at about the 29 second mark. Mike makes a fast attack to my head and I whirl my sword to deflect it without conscious thought. In fact, you can see my conscious thought, as I duck my head slightly, knowing for a fact that I'm about to be hit. :) Yes, I'm the one that's humiliated at the end...
 
Arthwollipot, your value on the Keen Guy market continues to rise!!

I dreamed last night that I was attending an SCA-style event in the company of PZ Myers...maybe I was actually dreaming about you? I bet you'd go along to a pseudo-medieval casino party / tourney / memorial party for departed founder!

Hugs, MK
 
Actually, I think that the SCA takes itself far too seriously. I gave up on them many years ago. Other kingdoms might be OK though.
 
arthwollipot said:
I've got video of me doing that kind of blocking, but YouTube is blocked here at work. Search YouTube for "AAF Norman Knight Fight" and you should find it, or get the MPG at http://www.aaf.org.au/gallery/videos/displays/bergmann-anglican-school/MOV05211.MPG (21.1Mb download...). The bit I'm thinking of occurs at about the 29 second mark. Mike makes a fast attack to my head and I whirl my sword to deflect it without conscious thought. In fact, you can see my conscious thought, as I duck my head slightly, knowing for a fact that I'm about to be hit. :) Yes, I'm the one that's humiliated at the end...
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This one?

 
The reason I suspect it might not work so well in a helmet is because I think I'm sensing wind on my hair. Like a cat's whiskers, only much less well suited for the job.
 
I haven't read to the end yet to see if anyone picked this point up:

N1nja said:
also, what you dont see in the video are the 50-100 people sitting in front of you...none of them are perfectly silent, they all shift there weight while sitting on the floor, changing there positions, wispering to eachother... etc....
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So as sources of subliminal or conscious cues about when the strike might be starting we can add the body-language of 50-100 people watching it, wondering if their fellow will get bashed/cut or pass an important test. They're going to give tiny involuntary movements - or great big obvious ones in some cases. This, to my mind, is probably a greater source of information than the sounds, air movements, changes of lighting and shadows, vibration through the floor, etc.
 
Two things from the YouTube video in post #8:



1) Is there really an "intention to kill"?

2) The master definitely moves differently before the attacks and this movement has a CLEAR connection to the pass rate.

How would you comment on these points N1nja?

My conclusion is that nothing out of the ordinary seems to happen in this video.
 
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