'6th Sense'

[The Atheist]

You need to go to Bullshido!

They are not only the MA and MMA legends, they also really, really hate this kind of paranormality masquerading as MA.

Even better, the Bullshido guys will literally kick their arse!

 

[kerikiwi]

My point is that evidence should not be dismissed out of hand because it is anecdotal -- it depends how much support there is for the anecdote.

Which is why I said 'alone it is worthless'.
Anecdotes, especially the type which claim an event that goes against the huge weight of daily experience, (that is, lots more anecdotes ) need plenty of support!

 

[paximperium]

You need to go to Bullshido!

They are not only the MA and MMA legends, they also really, really hate this kind of paranormality masquerading as MA.

Even better, the Bullshido guys will literally kick their arse!

The Bullshido guys normally challenge these woo-believers and often get turned down.

Some of the saddest and funniest videos are the vids of these MA guys kicking some dim mak practitioner in the face or beating a bujinkan ninjitsu guy to a pulp. Still no videos of woo-practioners kicking real martial artists.

 

[jimtron]

My point is that evidence should not be dismissed out of hand because it is anecdotal -- it depends how much support there is for the anecdote.

Anecdotal evidence alone isn't good evidence. What do you mean by support?

If I take a pill for a headache, and 15 minutes later the headache goes away; that's anecdotal evidence for the pill curing headaches. But that evidence alone--anecdotal evidence--doesn't mean much, because maybe the headache went away on its own (which headaches do), or maybe it was the placebo effect, or maybe something the person ate etc.

If this "6th sense" or whatever really exists, it should stand up to scrutiny beyond anecdotal evidence.

 

[N1nja]

look, i have nothing to prove here... I did not get on here and claim to have some kind of special powers...
these are facts which actually occured and can be verified, however with the incident of the guy who through the glass at the back of my head the only people who can verify it are 2 of my friends, the man who thru it and his friend who was with him at the time.
For the story about the Japanese instructor and the plane, it is a fact and i am sure if you do enough digging you would find it.
and i am not going to waste my time contacting my friends and witneses to these incidents who where there in person to verify just for the sake of having you believe my stories. I am not the only person in the world who have had things like this happen to them.

I have simply tried to give you the facts based on my expieriance, i have presented you with this test we take and asked for an educated reasoning as to what it really could be...
So, for the sake of keeping to my intent, OK, fine let's say you don't believe what i told you, so for the sake of the discussion let's say these facts are true, then what is it? what is this ability? is it supernatural? or something else?
I personally do not think that i have some type of special skill or ability, and i don't think i will be able to just make it happen when i want it to. I do think the grandmaster can.
i brought this up for discussion to get some intellegent insight. either you do not believe what i have told you, or you can except what i have said. - thats up to you, but what do i have to gain? really... I'm not some crazy person who got on here and claimed to have magical powers, I am still skeptical of it, and think there may be more of a phsycological or scientific answer for this.

I am not the only person in the world with 'stories' like this. this isn't hindsight, me looking back on a lucky incident and thinking it was something it wasn't. I'm not that stupid... There really was something about these incidents which took place before each event occured.

As for the comments dealing with him projecting this intent to kill, or not, in the real world when someone makes an intent to commit an act, such as on a battle field in ancient Japan, you really think they have the time to not put intent into an action and still comit it?....

whatever this ability is, it is not timing out the cut, feeling vibrations from him shifting his weight on his feet etc... try it out if you don't believe me.

I have tried to be bias in my reasoning as well, I have given you the reasoning from the bujinkan point of you, and i have stated my skepticism.
If i 100% believed in my heart this ability was for real or felt i had a special ability, i would not be on this forum at all, i have nothing to gain but wasting my time on the computer i have spent typing all this stuff out and responding to people who question what i've said.
tell me something about you?!! Now verify it, becuase i don't believe you... this is ridiculous.

But based on what i have seen training in the bujinkan Masaaki Hatsumi would and could pass this $1mil challenge, probably.
But what i really would like, is an actual anylisis of this ability. Like having James Randi go there and give his opinion on the matter to see what it really is. if any of you who absolutely don't believe me, have connections with some type of news, or magazine/ documentary, he does allow people to come and see what it is we do. and i do think if James Randi contacted him, Hatsumi would allow him to come and see this in person, which would allow him to make an accurate assesment.
So, if you don't believe me, that's cool, it doesn't effect me either way. If i see any educated responses or questioning then i'll respond to it when i get the chance.

 

[kerikiwi]

look, i have nothing to prove here... I did not get on here and claim to have some kind of special powers...

So sensing (without sight or hearing) that someone is throwing something at you is not a special power?
Sensing that a bomb is about to explode is not a special power?

i am not going to waste my time contacting my friends and witneses to these incidents who where there in person to verify just for the sake of having you believe my stories.

And those of us who expect verification for such extraordinary claims will continue to have doubts (which is my polite way of saying: will continue to think you are talking total tripe)

I am not the only person in the world who have had things like this happen to them.

You are not the only person who claims to have had such things happen to him. There is no believable evidence that your claims are true. You may be deluded, or lying, or a combination, but your claims are extremely unlikely to be true.


i have presented you with this test we take and asked for an educated reasoning as to what it really could be...

And you have been given exactly what you asked for.


so for the sake of the discussion let's say these facts are true, then what is it? what is this ability? is it supernatural? or something else?

No, let's not say that. First establish the facts, then worry about their causes. You can't ask what an ability is if the ability doesn't exist.

tell me something about you?!! Now verify it, becuase i don't believe you... this is ridiculous.

You are right about the ridiculous part.
Which of these two statements would you be inclined to accept, and which would you be skeptical of? :
I am sitting on a chair at my computer .
I am levitating at my computer. I don't need a chair.

 

[The Atheist]

...
these are facts which actually occured and can be verified, however with the incident of the guy who through the glass at the back of my head the only people who can verify it are 2 of my friends, the man who thru it and his friend who was with him at the time.

Anecdote from a couple of ignorant [of scientific methodology and what constitutes "facts"] people's assertion does not equate to "facts which actually occurred"

For the story about the Japanese instructor and the plane, it is a fact and i am sure if you do enough digging you would find it.

Someone else once told a story....

and i am not going to waste my time contacting my friends and witneses to these incidents who where there in person to verify just for the sake of having you believe my stories. I am not the only person in the world who have had things like this happen to them.

Most certainly.

You will, however, be the first to convince someone with a working brain that it happened, should you have any success.

I have simply tried to give you the facts based on my expieriance, i have presented you with this test we take and asked for an educated reasoning as to what it really could be...

Have you ever participated in one of those security seminars where a robber bursts in and afterwards, everyone has to complete an ID form?

You should give it a go sometime. From my experience, 100 witnesses - giving independent evidence - can come up with up to 50 different scenarios. You and your friends have talked about it and convinced yourselves you all saw the same thing.

This makes you human, not stupid. What would be stupid is going to an internet discussion board with no evidence and claiming some kind of paranormal thing happened.

So, for the sake of keeping to my intent, OK, fine let's say you don't believe what i told you, so for the sake of the discussion let's say these facts are true, then what is it? what is this ability? is it supernatural? or something else?

Something else.

I personally do not think that i have some type of special skill or ability, and i don't think i will be able to just make it happen when i want it to. I do think the grandmaster can.

Ask him to go to Bullshido and state his claims.

He's not applying for the mio, so you'd get a much better response there.

i brought this up for discussion to get some intellegent insight. either you do not believe what i have told you, or you can except what i have said. - thats up to you,

Intelligent insight?

Doesn't seem to be what you're after at all.

My intelligent insight at this stage is that you are/have been mistaken.

but what do i have to gain? really...

Hotdogs? Class points for trolling? What do you have to gain?

I'm not some crazy person who got on here and claimed to have magical powers, I am still skeptical of it, and think there may be more of a phsycological or scientific answer for this.

And what if there is no scienitific answer? What if it's just another cheap trick, as every claim of this type has been? Are you going to go with the facts: all paranormal claims have failed testing; or the 1,000,000,000,000,000:1 chance that you've stumbled upon the greatest miracle in the history of humankind?

I am not the only person in the world with 'stories' like this. this isn't hindsight, me looking back on a lucky incident and thinking it was something it wasn't. I'm not that stupid... There really was something about these incidents which took place before each event occured.

A good show deserves a good showman.

But what i really would like, is an actual anylisis of this ability.

It doesn't exist.

The bill's in the mail.

Like having James Randi go there and give his opinion on the matter to see what it really is. if any of you who absolutely don't believe me, have connections with some type of news, or magazine/ documentary, he does allow people to come and see what it is we do. and i do think if James Randi contacted him, Hatsumi would allow him to come and see this in person, which would allow him to make an accurate assesment.

What a novel approach! The mountain won't go to Randi, so Randi must go to the mountain.

Marvellous stuff.

So, if you don't believe me, that's cool, it doesn't effect me either way. If i see any educated responses or questioning then i'll respond to it when i get the chance.

Ah, well if you're only interested in educated responses, then maybe you should have gone to Popular Mechanics or a science forum.

 

[Edges]

Kerikiwi already addressed a lot of your post, but:

these are facts which actually occured and can be verified, however with the incident of the guy who through the glass at the back of my head the only people who can verify it are 2 of my friends, the man who thru it and his friend who was with him at the time.
For the story about the Japanese instructor and the plane, it is a fact and i am sure if you do enough digging you would find it.

They are claims. Without more information than "some Japanese instructor" on "some plane", how exactly are we meant to find it? Googling for "japanese martial arts instructor, plane" brought up a lot of schools, but no story like you presented. Other search terms were equally fruitless. In any case, onus is on the claimant.

I am not the only person in the world who have had things like this happen to them.

Maybe so, but similarly, other people who claim these things without proof are generally not believed.

i have presented you with this test we take and asked for an educated reasoning as to what it really could be...
So, for the sake of keeping to my intent, OK, fine let's say you don't believe what i told you, so for the sake of the discussion let's say these facts are true, then what is it? what is this ability? is it supernatural? or something else?

And people have given you their opinions, several people, myself included. Many of those people have even looked at videos portraying the very test that you described before coming up with explanations. You may not agree with what we have said, but you cannot say that we haven't already answered these questions.

either you do not believe what i have told you, or you can except what i have said.

False dichotomy. We can also accept that you believe what you're saying without accepting that it is true.

whatever this ability is, it is not timing out the cut, feeling vibrations from him shifting his weight on his feet etc... try it out if you don't believe me.

That statement ignores the explanations that others have put forth for this "ability" if such exists. No one is claiming that any person with this so-called ability is consciously timing the cut or feeling the shift of weight. What has been suggested is that a person with this "ability" would have trained their body to the point that it can react to the slightest stimulus without conscious thought. This is not completely impossible as our body already has the ability to react to stimulus without our thinking about it (someone brought up snatching your hand away from a hot stove).

So, if you don't believe me, that's cool, it doesn't effect me either way. If i see any educated responses or questioning then i'll respond to it when i get the chance.

There have been a lot of educated responses and questioning. Whether you agre with them or not does not make it "uneducated" nor does it mean that the poster is completely disregarding everything you put forth.

 

[Rodney]

Anecdotal evidence alone isn't good evidence. What do you mean by support?

For example, physical evidence and/or a number of credible witnesses.

 

[kerikiwi]

For example, physical evidence and/or a number of credible witnesses.

And thus you are no longer dealing with anecdotal evidence.

 

[Rodney]

And thus you are no longer dealing with anecdotal evidence.

How so? In the case of rogue waves, there was plenty of physical evidence and credible witnesses, and yet, as a NY Times article put it: "Over the decades, skeptical oceanographers have doubted their existence and tended to lump them with sightings of mermaids and sea monsters."

 

[Stout]

Interesting topic, I've never seen this one before.

I took tae kwon do for a few years, and never ran into any woo, but I've always heard "these stories"....someone knows someone else who knows "this guy" who does kung fu and

Can throw his chi across the room !

You never see it, but "it happens"

N!nja...you want this to be true, right ? You want some sort of scientific or rational explanation for an idea or ideas that super powers are possible if you only work on it.

You've got it, there is nothing rational or scientific in the function of these superpowers, they're all just stories and it's either a trick, a fluke, a "misremembering" or someone whose trained themselves physically to do things you or I find awe inspiring.

You may want to shop the idea elsewhere if your looking for conformation. There's plenty of people who'll tell you it's the universal life force, or God, or your spidey senses.

 

[Ashles]

How so? In the case of rogue waves, there was plenty of physical evidence and credible witnesses, and yet, as a NY Times article put it: "Over the decades, skeptical oceanographers have doubted their existence and tended to lump them with sightings of mermaids and sea monsters."

If there is physical evidence then it isn't just anecdotal. I am really confused why you aren't understanding everyone saying the same thing.

In your own example there is physical evidence. So it isn't solely anecdotal.

Now this isn't to say that purely anecdotal evidence may not cause someone to go looking for physical evidence. But alone it is not evidence.

I say I saw bigfoot - anecdotal evidence - no indication of existence.
100 researchers find me very convincing and go looking for bogfoot - no indication of existence - activity based solely on anecdotal evidence.
1 researcher finds a bit of hair that may be Bigfoot's - physical evidence - some real weight (no matter how small) has been given to the claim. There is now something to test, examine and scrutinise.

 

[N1nja]

BTW - for those who doubted me... i did a quick search on yahoo and found this...
(I cannot yet put links on my post so i had to edit this link to get it posted in here)

www
.mudvillegazette.com
/archives/2004_12.html

scroll down to the story titled "Mosul - the shot heard 'round the World?"

 

[N1nja]

I have been training in martial arts for over 20 years now. I have tried and seen everything....
Hatsumi himself doesnt teach this projecting CHI energy and doing all these crazy cooky tricks martial artists use, infact, he even wrote a book with this subject in it... and he shows old martial arts tricks and how martial artists use them to deceive people etc...(in japanese)

but in my expieriance in the bujinkan, ....this is very different, there is something to it, much more than the 'Awe' factor.
would i like this ability to be REAL, of course, but i'm not gonna blindly believe and follow without question. It truly is a different expieriance and the only way to understand what i am talking about would be for you to join the bujinkan and train in Japan with hatsumi himself.

I am swayed to the fact that this ability is what the bujinkan says it is becuase i have not found hard evidence to say otherwise. I do know this is NOT a timing trick, feeling vibrations, weight shifting etc...(but i am not stuck in my ways, if i find an answer or truth, i will accept it and change my opinion)
he swings that sword down in less than a second. I cannot roll my entire body out of the way while sitting on my legs in time, try it... you would have to spend 20 years of your life just training to do that and develop a skill for rolling out of the way like that...

yes in some videos, it shows him shifting up on his toes...but at the hombu dojo it is a solid floor, you cant feel any weight shift... this test has been performed outdoors as well, with wind, and other sounds from everyday life, cars, planes flying by etc....

also, what you dont see in the video are the 50-100 people sitting in front of you...none of them are perfectly silent, they all shift there weight while sitting on the floor, changing there positions, wispering to eachother... etc....
the hombu dojo is also located about 10 ft. from the train tracks and a train station a block down the way... there are constently other small noises and things present to distract you or enough to hide hatsumi shifting his weight, or hearing the air changes from him cutting down...

also, we do not practice this skill, we just train, practice hard, and when it is your time to take this test it is the first time you are attempting it... you dont have time to prepare...

I would except a response such as hightened senses or based on our training this occurs, but what is a hightened sense? can something intangable such as thought become a sense?.. a hightened thought, insight from something more than the physical?
if so couldnt this be considered extra-ordinary?......

So, now i have atleast provided sometype of evidence that this event in Iraq actually took place from a source other than my own word.
Please keep in mind, i dont live my life with a video camera ready and waiting for events like this to take place so i can provide people who don't believe me with evidence....
and i am not about to post my personal military records to verify i was there online for you..but i think with this evidence, it should sufice, i am not lying to you.

 

[Moochie]

I skimmed through the item you linked to, and all I can ask is, so what? It's an interesting anecdote, among millions of anecdotes that people all over the planet have relayed since time immemorial. They add up to nothing much at all.

As for your belief in this martial arts stuff -- even if it were true, it would be utterly useless against a gun-wielding character a la Indiana Jones when he was confronted by that clown doing his machete-twirling drum majorette-like showing off for the "true believers" in the audience.


M.

 

[Horatius]

I am swayed to the fact that this ability is what the bujinkan says it is becuase i have not found hard evidence to say otherwise. I do know this is NOT a timing trick, feeling vibrations, weight shifting etc...(but i am not stuck in my ways, if i find an answer or truth, i will accept it and change my opinion)
he swings that sword down in less than a second. I cannot roll my entire body out of the way while sitting on my legs in time, try it... you would have to spend 20 years of your life just training to do that and develop a skill for rolling out of the way like that...

Well, considering you've shown no willingness to "accept it and change [your] opinion", I'll give it one more try:

What this "mystical ability" is, is the rare and difficult task of paying attention. That's all it is. After years of paying attention in class, those who are serious about their training have learned to integrate every possible signal to let them know when/if someone is about to attack them. It's really nothing more than that.

As for your assertions that you "know" it's not sound, or wind, or floor vibrations, or whatever, as we've mentioned before, a lot of these processes are unconscious - in a lot of cases, you learn it without even realizing you're learning it. It's just one day, something weird like this happens, and you either go, "Oh, I guess I really was paying attention all these years!", or you go "Cool! Super Ninja Powers!!"

On the issue of his swing taking "less than a second": Everyone who has studied any martial art for any significant time can tell you that every attack is telegraphed. Good MA telegraph less than bad MA, and can see/sense smaller telegraphs that others miss, but there's always something there to be sen, if you're paying attention. When you react to the telegraph, rather than the overt attack, then it doesn't matter how fast he swings. You're already avoiding his attack by that point.

That you don't seem to know this tells me that you're either not a 20-year veteran of the martial arts, or that you haven't been paying attention.

Which is probably why this skill seems so mystical to you.

So, now i have atleast provided sometype of evidence that this event in Iraq actually took place from a source other than my own word.
Please keep in mind, i dont live my life with a video camera ready and waiting for events like this to take place so i can provide people who don't believe me with evidence....
and i am not about to post my personal military records to verify i was there online for you..but i think with this evidence, it should sufice, i am not lying to you.

And that is why you fail. All this proves is that you can remember an event that happened, and was extensively reported in the media, and can regurgitate it when necessary. You wouldn't be the first person to pretend to be someone he's not on the Intertubes.

Now, you can go ahead an re-post your same denials, or you can actually try to learn something. If you go with the second option, I'll actually bother to respond.

But at least pay attention.

 

[Edges]

What this "mystical ability" is, is the rare and difficult task of paying attention. That's all it is. After years of paying attention in class, those who are serious about their training have learned to integrate every possible signal to let them know when/if someone is about to attack them. It's really nothing more than that.

This is what I don't get about the attempt to magify(magicify?magickinate?) martial arts. Nobody has downplayed the intense amount of training necessary to hone the non-magic skill. It would take a lot of self-discipline to train one's body to not only pay attention to minute changes in the environment but to react to them as soon as they are sensed. Why isn't this enough? I know that I would never be able to attain that level of self-discipline. I'm just as awed by martial arts masters who have without thinking that they have some kind of "sixth sense" or mystical ability.

 

[Delvo]

In that video, the person giving the test and the one in front of him taking it cast at least three shadows apiece on the floor: one pointing forward from them and two others pointing forward and to the right and left.

 

[Horatius]

This is what I don't get about the attempt to magify(magicify?magickinate?) martial arts. Nobody has downplayed the intense amount of training necessary to hone the non-magic skill. It would take a lot of self-discipline to train one's body to not only pay attention to minute changes in the environment but to react to them as soon as they are sensed. Why isn't this enough? I know that I would never be able to attain that level of self-discipline. I'm just as awed by martial arts masters who have without thinking that they have some kind of "sixth sense" or mystical ability.

I completely agree. I've seen some of my sensei do things that are absolutely amazing, and every once in a while I exceed my normal abilities, and pull off one of these amazing things myself, and feel pretty proud, without having to feel all mystical about it.


I recall Phil Plait's tag line of his talk at TAM 6: "The Universe is Cool Enough As It Is, without having to Make Up Crap About It!"