52 more Iraqis "Liberated" this weekend

[Puppycow]

And how many of those deaths occurred once the sanctions were put in place?

It doesn't matter. There would have been no sanctions if Saddam hadn't invaded Kuwait. Since the sanctions were Saddam's fault, any additional deaths due to sanctions were Saddam's fault too.

 

[TraneWreck]

It doesn't matter. There would have been no sanctions if Saddam hadn't invaded Kuwait. Since the sanctions were Saddam's fault, any additional deaths due to sanctions were Saddam's fault too.

Wow.

And there they are, laid bare, the rationalizations that let proponents of our absurd, failed invasion sleep easy at night.

Before we invaded we had modified the sanctions regime to allow more food and medicine into the country without allowing Hussein to re-arm.

 

[Puppycow]

Um....none. That's cause Saddam Hussein is dead.

Q.E.D.

 

[Puppycow]

Wow.

And there they are, laid bare, the rationalizations that let proponents of our absurd, failed invasion sleep easy at night.

Before we invaded we had modified the sanctions regime to allow more food and medicine into the country without allowing Hussein to re-arm.

I am not a propoonent of the invasion, I'm just a proponent of blaming Al Qaeda's crimes on Al Qaeda and Saddam's crimes on Saddam. The thread started with Thunder blaming America for Al Qaeda killing Iraqi Christians.

 

[TraneWreck]

I am not a propoonent of the invasion, I'm just a proponent of blaming Al Qaeda's crimes on Al Qaeda and Saddam's crimes on Saddam. The thread started with Thunder blaming America for Al Qaeda killing Iraqi Christians.

You should watch the video I linked and see the anger and pain experienced by real Iraqis at the introduction of Al Qaeda into their culture.

These are people who lived under Saddam and they call the American occupation a "virus." We destroyed their society twice, eliminated their army, and failed to protect their borders, now we're demanding that they "rise up" against the very forces of evil we allowed to take root in their society.

 

[Thunder]

The thread started with Thunder blaming America for Al Qaeda killing Iraqi Christians.

#1. the USA is not mentioned in the OP.

#2. several nations participated in the invasion of Iraq.

#3. the OP blaims the invasion AND the resulting anarchy and lawlessness, for the sectarian and terrorist violence.

 

[portlandatheist]

#1. the USA is not mentioned in the OP.

#2. several nations participated in the invasion of Iraq.

#3. the OP blaims the invasion AND the resulting anarchy and lawlessness, for the sectarian and terrorist violence.

and fails to blame the actual parties responsible for the violence.

 

[Meed]

It doesn't matter. There would have been no sanctions if Saddam hadn't invaded Kuwait. Since the sanctions were Saddam's fault, any additional deaths due to sanctions were Saddam's fault too.

No, deaths due to sanctions are the fault of the party imposing the sanctions. Your reasoning could be used to claim that the holocaust was Hitler's mother's fault.

 

[Davo]

Saddam had to be replaced for a lot of reasons. Try Bush's address to the UN in 2002, his speech to the National Endowment for Democracy or the Iraqi Liberation Act signed into national policy under Clinton.

If at the time of invasion it was stated clearly that the Iraq invasion was to liberate the Iraqi people I wouldn`t have such a big issue with it, but it wasn`t.

Bush, Blair and others made it quite clear at the time that they had evidence of WMD ( the general public gave them the benefit of the doubt here)and that was the reason for invading NOT regime change.

I mean, where do you draw the line in the sand of what countries should be invaded for regime change for the embetterment of the people. North Korea (OK ,too hard basket), Saudi ? ( where the 911 terrorists actually originated, and the recent cargo plane bombs), Myanmar ? and many others.

 

[PhantomWolf]

You should watch the video I linked and see the anger and pain experienced by real Iraqis at the introduction of Al Qaeda into their culture.

These are people who lived under Saddam and they call the American occupation a "virus." We destroyed their society twice, eliminated their army, and failed to protect their borders, now we're demanding that they "rise up" against the very forces of evil we allowed to take root in their society.

And no Iraqis have had anything to do with sheltering them, feeding them, protecting them?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Saudi ? ( where the 911 terrorists actually originated, and the recent cargo plane bombs)

That was Yemen. (and not all of the 9/11 hijackers were saudi. Atta was Egyptian, al-Shehhi and Banihammad were UAE, and Jarrah was Lebanese.) A number of Yemenese were selected for the attacks too, but got rejected by US Immagration for fear of them being economic migrants.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
Saddam had to be replaced for a lot of reasons. Try Bush's address to the UN in 2002, his speech to the National Endowment for Democracy or the Iraqi Liberation Act signed into national policy under Clinton.

First, we are stuck with the Iraq we have so I don't think crying over Bush and Cheney's mis-underestimate of the situation is all that helpful. But neither is continuing to repeat this propaganda piece.

To move forward we need to recognize you cannot imagine your way to a better world. You need to go by the facts. We did not need to invade Iraq, at least not when we did. Bush really did lie and people really did die. Face the facts and move on.

Second, the war was incredibly mishandled from the time Bush declared, "mission accomplished" until Bush/Cheney left office.

Third, we can hope that Obama is as smart as he seems and isn't bamboozled by the hawks and war profiteers. But we should not concede our (the US public's) interest in making sure Obama does handle things in Iraq and Afghanistan better than Bush/Cheney did.

Hearing an interview of one of the survivors, she praised the Iraqi army. She said they came in after the al Qaeda fanatics began killing themselves and their hostages. I found that to be a very encouraging sign. Perhaps the Iraqi army was not able to prevent the incident or prevent all the deaths. But the Iraqi army was able to take back control of the situation and save some lives. That is as good as India did in Mumbai and we certainly didn't disrupt their country like we did Iraq's.

 

[TraneWreck]

And no Iraqis have had anything to do with sheltering them, feeding them, protecting them?

I don't follow.

Blame can be spread far and wide. We can hold the Pope and the Catholic hierarchy responsible for their crimes while recognizing that others did the actual molestation.

There are thugs and terrorists in the Iraqi population. There are thugs and terrorists in the American population. We do a good job of controlling ours, after destroying their society twice we disbanded their military, leaving them incapable of fighting the foreigners flooding in through the borders we left wide open. When people are scared, when their lives are threatened, they make decisions of desperation that they wouldn't otherwise.

The bombers and other monsters in Iraq are responsible for their crimes, we're responsible for ours. The terrorists are scum; we created the situation that allows them to thrive.

 

[Virus]

I don't follow.

Blame can be spread far and wide. We can hold the Pope and the Catholic hierarchy responsible for their crimes while recognizing that others did the actual molestation.

There are thugs and terrorists in the Iraqi population. There are thugs and terrorists in the American population. We do a good job of controlling ours

Arab governments are thugs and terrorists. The Baathists were thugs and terrorists. They're thugs and terrorists in power that fight ascendant thugs and terrorists seeking to dislodge them.

, after destroying their society twice

Nonsense. Saddam invaded Kuwait and he was evicted by force. We didn't "destroy their society". A ceasefire was agreed which Saddam broke on numerous counts. He was so insane that he preferred to spit on the agreements he signed even though it jeopardized his and ultimately destroyed his regime. Saddam started it. Saddam's fault.

we disbanded their military, leaving them incapable of fighting the foreigners flooding in through the borders we left wide open.

They've been doing less than stellar job fighting the terrorists even with full US training and backing. In some areas they welcomed the terrorists. Fortunately they learned from their mistake and worked with the international forces to clean out their towns of terrorists.

When people are scared, when their lives are threatened, they make decisions of desperation that they wouldn't otherwise.

What are these decisions they made out of desperation?

The bombers and other monsters in Iraq are responsible for their crimes, we're responsible for ours. The terrorists are scum; we created the situation that allows them to thrive.

They thrive because we overthrew a genocidal fascist regime and gave them a democracy? So you're saying that Arabs need to be ruled by home-grown genocidal, mad, utterly depraved totalitarians like Saddam Hussein to keep them in line?

Actually the terrorists are a product of Arab culture which has been incubating totalitarians and fanatics for decades. Post-liberation Iraq is first time power has ever been shared in the Arab world and the first time Arabs have ever chosen their own government or decided on their constitution.

 

[TraneWreck]

Nonsense. Saddam invaded Kuwait and he was evicted by force. We didn't "destroy their society". A ceasefire was agreed which Saddam broke on numerous counts. He was so insane that he preferred to spit on the agreements he signed even though it jeopardized his and ultimately destroyed his regime. Saddam started it. Saddam's fault.

Baby, why did you make me hit you?

They've been doing less than stellar job fighting the terrorists even with full US training and backing. In some areas they welcomed the terrorists. Fortunately they learned from their mistake and worked with the international forces to clean out their towns of terrorists.

Kind of. Mostly we paid them off, which is what Saddam did.

What are these decisions they made out of desperation?

To tolerate or join the violent foreigners flooding into their country through the open borders. Had they the ability to fight back, things would have been very different. There's a reason foreign terrorists were not in Iraq in any significant number before 2003.

They thrive because we overthrew a genocidal fascist regime and gave them a democracy? So you're saying that Arabs need to be ruled by genocidal, utterly depraved and sadistic rulers like Saddam Hussein to keep them in line?

Stupid, ignorant, insulting false dichotomy. This is the ********* that scared our dumb American population into supporting the war in the first place.

Watch the video I linked. Witness people who lived under Saddam criticize the American effort.

Actually the terrorists are a product of Arab culture which has been incubating totalitarians and fanatics for decades. Post-liberation Iraq is first time power has ever been shared in the Arab world and the first time Arabs have ever chosen their own government or decided on their constitution.

You know there's still no actual government in Iraq right now, correct?

Such vivid fantasies you have. But I'm sure the hundreds of thousands of mothers who lost children in the 90's due to the sanctions and the millions of refugees of this latest adventure take solace in the fact that you, sitting fat and happy here in the US, think they're better off.

Glad you were around to make that decision for them.

 

[Virus]

Such vivid fantasies you have. But I'm sure the hundreds of thousands of mothers who lost children in the 90's due to the sanctions and the millions of refugees of this latest adventure take solace in the fact that you, sitting fat and happy here in the US, think they're better off.

Saddam's fault.

 

[Leftus]

Funny, but soo fewer Iraqis were gaining "liberation" and "freedom" before the "liberation" of Iraq. How does this work again?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_campaign

"... Independent sources estimate 100,000 to more than 150,000 deaths ..."

Needless to say, I'm having trouble with your math.

 

[Ziggurat]

such events did not occur, before Iraq was "liberated".

Indeed. Why, when Saddam's thugs killed people, it was so much better.

 

[Ziggurat]

#1. the USA is not mentioned in the OP.

That claim seems rather contradictory to this claim:

#3. the OP blaims the invasion AND the resulting anarchy and lawlessness, for the sectarian and terrorist violence.

You don't seriously expect anyone to not know who led the invasion, do you? You're not seriously trying to claim that blaming an effect on an action is somehow completely different than blaming whoever took that action, are you?

 

[Puppycow]

You should watch the video I linked and see the anger and pain experienced by real Iraqis at the introduction of Al Qaeda into their culture.

Al Qaeda introduced themselves into Iraqi culture. Americans did not bus them in. There they found sympathetic Iraqis who aided and abetted them. It's a real nightmare, but it is wrong to blame the actions of Al Qaeda people and their allies on anyone but those same people themselves. America has done as much as we could to destroy Al Qaeda in Iraq, with some success I might add.