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Merged 2024 Election Thread

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Delvo said:
...which obviously didn't prevent you from engaging in what I said: giving that particular (wildly dishonest) defense of the Democrats in power, in the form of accusations about how awful the peasants are for not swearing fealty to them no matter how bad their reign gets.
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Just to clarify: are you saying that my post about the economy is "wildly dishonest"?

If so, can you clarify specifically what is "wildly dishonest" about it?
 
Dr. Keith said:
Sorry. I went more general because that isn’t the only topics where facts and logic have no sway with Trump voters.
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Well, since any message the DP puts out about the economy to try to get back its own voters who are giving up on it is likely to be heard by Republicans and independents too...

Dr. Keith said:
the lawyer who thinks it’s ok to vote for Trump because he heard a story about a trans woman getting another inmate pregnant in prison, thus proving that the LGBT community “had overplayed their hand”
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This one apparently prioritizes the culture war over economics, so neither economic message would probably have any effect on this one.

Dr. Keith said:
a client CEO who think we need a more pro business administration in the WH?
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In this case it probably depends on whether (s)he means pro-megabusinesses or pro-small-businesses. The overall economic trend has been favoring the former and hurting the latter, so people who favor the latter, just like those who are more interested in individuals than in any businesses at all, are more likely to be responsive to a message of "the economy's broken so we need to fix it". That's what got Trump elected and almost got him re-elected, but it isn't inherently a Republican message; it's just one that the Democrats have chosen to abandon and cede to the Republicans. It actually better fits what the DP is supposed to be.

Dr. Keith said:
the guy with the rebel flag and trump flags plastered on his truck and mobile home
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He and the subculture which raised him that way aren't just that way for no reason; they got that way because things have been getting worse for them and/or their communities for decades. That makes this category the most receptive, of the three categories here, to an economic message that just agrees with what they already think anyway about that. Remember, 9 million people voted Obama-Obama-Trump, millions more voted for Obama once and then Trump, and, when Bernie was running, he kept polling better against Trump than Hillary or Biden, and he was specifically doing it by poaching some voters who would otherwise vote for Trump instead of Hillary or Biden. That's because the correct spectrum on which to look at this was not between the parties, but between admitting that there are problems to fix (& talking about fixing them) and denying that fact, and Obama & Bernie & Trump were closer together on that spectrum than they were to Hillary or Biden.
 
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Delvo said:
One couldn't ask for a more perfect demonstration of contempt for the peasants (and not even on just any subject but specifically about their having the gall to not pay lip service to their masters). That's right up there in "let them eat cake" and "let them die and decrease the surplus population" territory.

And the fact that that's what passes for a defense of the Democrats is exactly how they've been handing over the country to the Republicans. I used to not understand how it was supposed to be possible for an oppressive dictatorship to get voted into power in what was a democracy/republic up until they do that. The idea of "grabbing power" simply made no sense when I read about it in school because first you would need to already have the power to grab the power before you could grab the power (because you can't grab what you don't have the power to grab), and then you wouldn't be grabbing it because you'd already have it, which you couldn't if you hadn't already somehow gotten it. Watching the Democrats lately has educated me in how something like 1930s Germany can happen. I was right that having a party of evil isn't enough. But what it also requires is something that my child self couldn't imagine actually possibly happening: that enough of the other party(s), which could stop the party of evil if they chose, either roll over & play dead for them or even partially join them. And here we are, watching the so-called "opposition" to the party of evil spew utterly vile poison like the above quotes, pushing as many potential voters as possible as far away as possible, doing the party of evil's work for them. The only good part is the fact the modern Hitler they're helping this time is so old & unhealthy he'll be gone soon after his re-election & re-inauguration, maybe even before.
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You can expect Religious Zelots to think logically, their whole belief system would crumble.
 
Delvo said:
...which obviously didn't prevent you from engaging in what I said: giving that particular (wildly dishonest) defense of the Democrats in power, in the form of accusations about how awful the peasants are for not swearing fealty to them no matter how bad their reign gets.
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Sorry, but what??? Where did you get that from?

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough.

1. Not being American, I neither belong to nor support any US political party.

2. From out here, all we can see is politics being played as though they were extreme team sports. The "fans" of each particular "team" cling tenaciously to their prejudices and legends, regardless of any facts to the contrary.

3. They cling so hard it becomes a religion. The team management encourage this. Scepticism of their desperately held positions is frowned on and avoided. They are prepared to go to war with other teams - never speak to opposition fans, cheat and plot against each other, shun family, burn down stadiums, etc.

4. The aim of each team becomes NOT to beat the other team but to destroy their followers...and NOT on the field but at home.

How am I going so far? Sound familiar?

So where does this view show prejudice for or against any party, or class of citizens?
 
Dr. Keith said:
I don’t think you get it. I went to fill up my truck with gas and the price was well under $3. But there wasn’t a sticker saying it was Biden’s fault on the pump anymore, so I didn’t think about it.

Trump will win Texas even if there is imax video of him being raped by Giuliani in prison. The loser has become more important than what the loser does.
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Don't be silly, T****y will win Texas in a landslide even if 100% of eligible voters vote for Biden, Florida too.

It's the American way.
 
Delvo said:
Well, since any message the DP puts out about the economy to try to get back its own voters who are giving up on it is likely to be heard by Republicans and independents too...

This one apparently prioritizes the culture war over economics, so neither economic message would probably have any effect on this one.

In this case it probably depends on whether (s)he means pro-megabusinesses or pro-small-businesses. The overall economic trend has been favoring the former and hurting the latter, so people who favor the latter, just like those who are more interested in individuals than in any businesses at all, are more likely to be responsive to a message of "the economy's broken so we need to fix it". That's what got Trump elected and almost got him re-elected, but it isn't inherently a Republican message; it's just one that the Democrats have chosen to abandon and cede to the Republicans. It actually better fits what the DP is supposed to be.

He and the subculture which raised him that way aren't just that way for no reason; they got that way because things have been getting worse for them and/or their communities for decades. That makes this category the most receptive, of the three categories here, to an economic message that just agrees with what they already think anyway about that. Remember, 9 million people voted Obama-Obama-Trump, millions more voted for Obama once and then Trump, and, when Bernie was running, he kept polling better against Trump than Hillary or Biden, and he was specifically doing it by poaching some voters who would otherwise vote for Trump instead of Hillary or Biden. That's because the correct spectrum on which to look at this was not between the parties, but between admitting that there are problems to fix (& talking about fixing them) and denying that fact, and Obama & Bernie & Trump were closer together on that spectrum than they were to Hillary or Biden.
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I think we largely agree. I think I’m just a bit more worn down and have fewer ***** to give at this point. Clinton and Obama proved that the message isn’t broken, the party just picks bad messengers. Biden was a compromise and frankly not one I agreed with.

But the economy is doing well and would be doing better for poor states if the GOP got out of the way. We have more uninsured people in Texas because the GOP don’t want federal expansion of health care. They know it would be popular and impossible to roll back, so **** those poor people.

Trump cares about them about as much as he cares about fallen soldiers.
 
Stacyhs said:
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...which obviously didn't prevent you from engaging in what I said: giving that particular (wildly dishonest) defense of the Democrats in power, in the form of accusations about how awful the peasants are for not swearing fealty to them no matter how bad their reign gets.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify: are you saying that my post about the economy is "wildly dishonest"?

If so, can you clarify specifically what is "wildly dishonest" about it?
Click to expand...

May I get an answer, please?
 
Delvo said:
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
the guy with the rebel flag and trump flags plastered on his truck and mobile home
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He and the subculture which raised him that way aren't just that way for no reason; they got that way because things have been getting worse for them and/or their communities for decades.
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Or.....he's just a stupid, racist, bigoted jerk who needs to blame others for his own shortcomings.
 
Dr. Keith said:
I think we largely agree. I think I’m just a bit more worn down and have fewer ***** to give at this point. Clinton and Obama proved that the message isn’t broken, the party just picks bad messengers. Biden was a compromise and frankly not one I agreed with.

But the economy is doing well and would be doing better for poor states if the GOP got out of the way. We have more uninsured people in Texas because the GOP don’t want federal expansion of health care. They know it would be popular and impossible to roll back, so **** those poor people.

Trump cares about them about as much as he cares about fallen soldiers.
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100% republicans are much worse for the economy. in virtually all meaningful things at this point imo, whether you want to agree with them on a social issue here and there. or if you're a big fan of various types of fraud, from voter to financial

i don't know how, from the perspective of the working class at least, we can look at home prices, wealth inequity and taxation, student loans, social safety nets, energy and the environment, childcare and healthcare costs, etc. and not seeing a future where major reform is required for it to work for anyone not eyeballing retirement. that's the problem with saying the economy is doing well.
 
Stacyhs said:
Or.....he's just a stupid, racist, bigoted jerk who needs to blame others for his own shortcomings.
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I understand how difficult it can be for decent people to believe that there really are people who enjoy seeing others suffer, especially others who don't happen to look and/or think exactly like them. There's no doubt that nurture does indeed greatly affect how people turn out, but there are enough examples of badly nurtured individuals who manage to turn out just fine to make it clear that nature also plays a role.

After a lifetime as the quintessential bleeding heart liberal, the last few years have finally forced me to accept the fact that a small but significant fraction of my fellow human beings really are, by nature, selfish scumbags. They exist in all classes of all societies, and I am no longer prepared to make excuses for their appalling, consciously made, choices.
 
Solitaire said:
Free wall:

Biden’s Economic Formula to Win in 2024 by Ronald Brownstein
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Everything they say there is completely accurate and would be very helpful, and the people with all the power in the DP are against all of it and prefer lecturing & scolding & demonizing their own voters.

One complaint I do have about that article's way of looking at it, though, is that it's all about talk. The more time goes on with current trends going they way they are, the harder the talk gets to believe without the actions matching. The Democrats need to be seen actually trying to do something positive. Even if it doesn't work, they need to be the party that people see trying, pushing the issues, setting the tone & the conversation topics, making Republicans expose themselves in response. So far, the main economic moves that have happened on their watch have been...
►the deaths of the COVID relief programs that had started under Trump, dumping families that had gotten out of poverty under Trump right back in it under Biden
►the gutting of "Build Back Better" of all the parts that would have actually affected ordinary people at all so the parts that were corporate handouts could more easily pass alone
►a so-called "inflation reduction act" after which inflation has observably continued and the inflated prices have stayed inflated
►avoidance of really doing even the minor student debt relief that was supposed to happen
►price controls on just a few drugs which demonstrate that there could be price controls on all of them but that's not being done
►"agenda acquiescence": sitting around waiting for Republicans to tell them what the subject of the conversation will even be.

dirtywick said:
100% republicans are much worse for the economy.
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That's the short-time-scale way of looking at it, on a resolution of a few years, about the time between elections or between little up & down ripples in various economic graph lines.

Unfortunately for Democrats, what affects voters more is a longer time-scale: decades, and at this point even lifetimes/generations. And on that scale, the graphs keep a pretty steady slope through it all since the early 1970s regardless of the smaller temporary ups & downs, and the two parties fail to separate from each other because it carries on this way while they keep trading places back & forth along the way. They even keep agreeing with each other on "bipartisan yay bipartisanship!" decisions that keep things going this way while counting on being able to keep getting elected by blaming the other party for it all.

When you're talking to people who look back and just see it having been getting worse that whole time, pointing out some particular little part of that always-worsening-all-along trend and telling them it actually got better worse slower for that moment, and that was because of you, is... not very productive.
 
Tero said:
This would never happen.
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Never say never - RFK Jr is just crazy enough and rich enough to run as an independent and it would sure as hell suit Republicans to split the vote, which it would unquestionably do.
 
It's remarkable how much of a non-event this feels a year out. That may be because I'm so disillusioned with electoral politics, though. Joe's carrying on the trickle-up economics, burn all oil, aggressive anti-immigration status quo. Over it.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
 
The Atheist said:
Never say never - RFK Jr is just crazy enough and rich enough to run as an independent and it would sure as hell suit Republicans to split the vote, which it would unquestionably do.
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It would split the vote but polls indicate that he would draw more support from Republicans than Democrats.
 
Solitaire said:
Free wall:

Biden’s Economic Formula to Win in 2024 by Ronald Brownstein
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I didn't see anything about increasing homelessness by 12% in that.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/us-h...est-reported-level_n_657d2da2e4b0e142c0bdc1bb

“The most significant causes are the shortage of affordable homes and the high cost of housing that have left many Americans living paycheck to paycheck and one crisis away from homelessness,” Olivet said.
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Rents are obviously out of control, and while the wider economy looks good, it's the poorest people who are suffering, so I'm pleased the Democrats are the party of elites and don't need to concern themselves with poverty levels.
 
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