2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker - Part II

[Joecool]

I read recently that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren want to implement a universal health system in the US and charge US citizens a 42% sales tax rate and that's not including income tax. I can't imagine that will be popular with either (R) or (D).

 

[kellyb]

I read recently that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren want to implement a universal health system in the US and charge US citizens a 42% sales tax rate and that's not including income tax. I can't imagine that will be popular with either (R) or (D).

^^^ the highlighted is totally made up.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

and here I was certain that Warren was going to pay for universal healthcare by selling organs...

 

[kellyb]

and here I was certain that Warren was going to pay for universal healthcare by selling organs...

Crack and meth, I heard.

 

[Belz...]

Taxing churches is not crazy or silly

Isn't it, though? I'm all for taxing them, but it's not a popular opinion in the US, I think.

and Harris introducing herself at the LGBT townhall by saying her pronouns is not actually crazy or silly however unaccustomed to doing this most of us are.

Maybe not to a portion of the "T" part of that townhall. And?

Maher's entire point is that those niche viewpoints might not play well in the general, and in this era of social media you can't expect the primaries to not play a role in the general. So why risk it? Supporting minority rights is one thing. Talking about prefered pronouns is another.

Saying felons should not be stripped of the right to vote is not really crazy or silly

Yes it is. Do you think that most people would agree that felons in prison should have that right while they are paying for their crimes?

ETA: Once they're out, however, that's a different matter.

and saying that they should be eligible for medical care paid for by the taxpayer up to and including gender realignment is not really crazy or silly.

You keep saying that, but I have no idea why. How is proposing to spend public dollars for unnecessary procedures for felons not silly?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The only problem I have with felons having the right to vote is how hilariously easy it would be for those in charge of the prisons to manipulate the vote.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The only problem I have with felons having the right to vote is how hilariously easy it would be for those in charge of the prisons to manipulate the vote.

...the usual proposal is they get their voting rights restored once they've completed their sentence and are released from prison. I haven't seen many wanting prisoners to vote while still in prison.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

...the usual proposal is they get their voting rights restored once they've completed their sentence and are released from prison. I haven't seen many wanting prisoners to vote while still in prison.

I know.
But I don't see a good reason why they shouldn't be allowed to vote whilst in prison ... expect maybe if they were convicted for Election Fraud ...

 

[TragicMonkey]

I know.
But I don't see a good reason why they shouldn't be allowed to vote whilst in prison ... expect maybe if they were convicted for Election Fraud ...

People are in prison because they've been found guilty of violating the social contract. Until they've made amends by serving their sentence they aren't acceptable members of society. It's perfectly reasonable to bar participation by demonstrably bad-faith actors until they've made restitution. You don't loan money to someone who's in default on a prior loan you gave them, you don't invite Cindy to your birthday party until she pays for the dry cleaning of your dress she threw up on last year.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Yeah, no.
I don't see it that way at all: in the past, plenty of people were incarcerated for things we now find bizarre to have been called crimes.
Taking away a fundamental Right should not be an automatic thing.

But maybe we should discuss this in a dedicated thread.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Back to Biden, it is funny that Giuliani is in the news again. He was the big national frontrunner for Republicans in 2008, but not in the early primary states. He planned on a big win in Florida before Super Tuesday. But by the time Florida came around momentum had carried others ahead and Giuliani lost Florida as well. I would see this as Biden's biggest risk.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Back to Biden, it is funny that Giuliani is in the news again. He was the big national frontrunner for Republicans in 2008, but not in the early primary states. He planned on a big win in Florida before Super Tuesday. But by the time Florida came around momentum had carried others ahead and Giuliani lost Florida as well. I would see this as Biden's biggest risk.

Time is ever Biden's greatest enemy. Not just from the crushing weight of his myriad decades of age, but because the longer the time between announcing and election the more opportunity Biden has to make mistakes and show his ass to the public. The man trips more than Dick Van Dyke so the less time he's given to make a fool of himself the better (for him). Biden's best chance is if he's whisked from silent photo-op to silent photo-op. A savvy campaign manager would simply replace him with a cardboard cutout. Which if elected could take the office and do just as well if not considerably better than Biden himself.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

CNN accidentally roasting Buttigieg while trying to keep him in the mix:

"Buttigieg in fourth, but a strong fourth".

 

[BobTheCoward]

People are in prison because they've been found guilty of violating the social contract. Until they've made amends by serving their sentence they aren't acceptable members of society. It's perfectly reasonable to bar participation by demonstrably bad-faith actors until they've made restitution. You don't loan money to someone who's in default on a prior loan you gave them, you don't invite Cindy to your birthday party until she pays for the dry cleaning of your dress she threw up on last year.

It isn't clear why the right to vote should be deprived from unacceptable members of society. Just as the right to speech is extended to offensive speech, why would votes be deprived from offensive people?

 

[Mumbles]

Maher's entire point is that those niche viewpoints might not play well in the general, and in this era of social media you can't expect the primaries to not play a role in the general. So why risk it? Supporting minority rights is one thing. Talking about prefered pronouns is another.

...and how many people will say "Well, I was going to vote for woman who emphasizes prison reform over the ignorant career criminal, but she said that she liked to be called "she" at a LGBTQ forum a year ago, so ignorant criminal it is."

My guess is, not many. Beto's mandatory gun confiscation is dangerous ground, as is Sanders' push for banning private insurance. Those actually effect quite a few people who have done little to nothing wrong, and that always frightens people.

Yes it is. Do you think that most people would agree that felons in prison should have that right while they are paying for their crimes?

ETA: Once they're out, however, that's a different matter.

The problem with Maher's approach (in general) is, again, that he glomps onto reactionary framing.

How many Boston Marathon Bombers would be voting? Compared to, say, folks that got caught with too much weed? Granted, I'm in favor of full-scale prison reform, but even I can see the obvious counter here. *The* Boston Marathon Bomber will not be swinging any elections, and any conservative that whines about "well, what about child rapists?" can be quickly reminded of Dolt 45, Roy Moore, and so forth. Seems to me that the party that desires putting child molestors in power are on shaky ground.

We can discuss this about other issues where Maher weighs in as well - his claim that he thought Obama would be "gangsta", his whining about "PC police" and the nonexistent "cancel culture", and so forth. He can claim to be "progressive" to his heart's content, but he's the guy that helped boost Milo the child rapist enabling apologist for white nationalism.

 

[Distracted1]

I know.
But I don't see a good reason why they shouldn't be allowed to vote whilst in prison ... expect maybe if they were convicted for Election Fraud ...

You may have a point. And reasoned consideration of the merits of it certainly has a place in politics.
Maher's point about it (and other "fringe" viewpoints that nonetheless may have some valid reasoning behind them) seems to be "is that the hill we are willing to die on" as Democrats.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The problem with Maher's approach (in general) is, again, that he glomps onto reactionary framing.

Which is exactly why I didn't to turn this into the Maher thread.

How about we don't look for reason to not listen to something that might be valid just because the guy who said it is something of douche?

You can always find a reason to ignore somebody. It's not a skill that's nearly as useful as people think it is.

In absolutely neutral terms my only point is just putting the question on the table as to whether over-courting your base hurts your general eligibility isn't some insane crazy question I'm some angry old man with high blood pressure yelling at the moon for asking.

 

[Belz...]

...and how many people will say "Well, I was going to vote for woman who emphasizes prison reform over the ignorant career criminal, but she said that she liked to be called "she" at a LGBTQ forum a year ago, so ignorant criminal it is."

Leaving aside that you're making them speak from your own personal point of view, it's possible they also abstain because they find no choice excites them.

My guess is, not many. Beto's mandatory gun confiscation is dangerous ground, as is Sanders' push for banning private insurance. Those actually effect quite a few people who have done little to nothing wrong, and that always frightens people.

Sounds like Maher wasn't entirely wrong, then.

How many Boston Marathon Bombers would be voting?

It's not about swaying elections. It's about whether they should get a voice at all.

 

[JoeMorgue]

*Holds up card that says "My own personal point of view"*
*Holds up card that says "Popular with the voters."*

This board: "Why did you just show me the same card twice in a row?"

The Democrats don't have to sell all of their pet projects at once. Sell then things that are already popular to win the election and THEN start working on your pet projects. Why is this such a controversial opinion?

And here I'll save half of you the trouble of responding: "sHoW mE whERE anYOne sAId tHAT!"

 

[Brainster]

...the usual proposal is they get their voting rights restored once they've completed their sentence and are released from prison. I haven't seen many wanting prisoners to vote while still in prison.

This wasn't an example of Republican framing. Bernie says that convicts should be able to vote in prirson, and at a townhall on CNN a few months back he was asked specifically, what about the Boston Marathon bomber, and he insisted that taking Tsarnaev's right to vote away was a slippery slope.