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2012 Debates

Never mind that it didn't work for Bush. An explanation vs no explanation doesn't mean that the explanation is any good. Supply side economics in in the dustbin of history. A candidate can say anything he damn well pleases, doesn't make it true.

In this case, the debates are worthless, as is any attempt to persuade anyone of their political positions and plans for the future.

It's called fiscal responsibility. We have a debt problem and we need to be responsible. This will require cutting spending and increasing taxes as Ben Stein, David Stockman and two Nobel laureates have made clear.

That may well be, at least you are making a subtle connection between cause and effect, and providing a source.

The economy is a complex dynamic subject to chaos. You cannot prove that Reagan's polices were ultimately good or bad. You cannot prove that Clinton's policies were ultimately good or bad. We ONLY have correlation.

Then you can't prove that Obama's policies are good or bad so there's no point in discussing them, and apparently there is no way to tell which candidate for 2012 is the better choice, so with this perspective we should just flip a coin.

I don't mind if you want to dismiss arguments as only being correlative, doesn't bother me one bit but be consistent. It's impossible to know if Romney's plan will work or not. If Romney is elected whatever the outcome it will be impossible to prove whether or not his policies were the reason for the outcome

Then let's just flip a coin. Let's not have debates or analyze policies. Let's not bother with complex issues because they are, well, complex.
 
There is a disconnect between your questions about the past with your "context" that is about the future.

I'll say it again. You asked a question. I answered it. The question was about the past. I answered providing premises about the past. I'm really Not sure why that is so damn difficult to comprehend.

Had you asked a question about the future then that would be an entirely different kettle of fish.

Given that the stock market is much, much higher and companies are making record profits and given that we are no longer hemorrhaging jobs and facing financial disaster whatever happened since GWB left town has been very, very good.

I still don't understand why you think the past and the future are such different beasts. I asked about the past because it often helps estimate the future. This isn't a complicated concept. Cause and effect implies events in the past as well as events in the future, especially when generalizing and establishing patterns.
 
In this case, the debates are worthless, as is any attempt to persuade anyone of their political positions and plans for the future.
That doesn't follow from what I said.

Then you can't prove that Obama's policies are good or bad so there's no point in discussing them, and apparently there is no way to tell which candidate for 2012 is the better choice, so with this perspective we should just flip a coin.
Straw man. We can look at history and correlations and listen to economists like Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz who make the case that Obama's policies are good. It's not as if we have zero consensus on what is possible. I only ask for people to be consistent. If YOU are going to argue that we cannot give Obama credit for any good that happens under his watch then (if you are intellectually honest) you've got to consistently make the same argument for Reagan and others. I'm consistent in that I'm willing to judge each president's contributions consistently.

Then let's just flip a coin. Let's not have debates or analyze policies.
That's what follow from YOUR logic. Not mine. YOU are the one that went down that road when you said that all we had were correlations. Don't put that off on me.
 
I still don't understand why you think the past and the future are such different beasts. I asked about the past because it often helps estimate the future. This isn't a complicated concept. Cause and effect implies events in the past as well as events in the future, especially when generalizing and establishing patterns.
You provided no nexus between the two. You asked about Obama's policies. I gave you an honest answer. They are very good for the reasons I gave. You then rejected my premises as being only correlative. Now you are saying we can look to the past to figure out the future.... DUH!, That IS my point.

Look, either my premises are just as valid as your premises or neither are. You can't have it both ways where your correlative evidence supports your conclusions but mine are disallowed.

So, which is it?
 
That doesn't follow from what I said.

It follows from what you've been saying.

Straw man. We can look at history and correlations and listen to economists like Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz who make the case that Obama's policies are good. It's not as if we have zero consensus on what is possible. I only ask for people to be consistent. If YOU are going to argue that we cannot give Obama credit for any good that happens under his watch then (if you are intellectually honest) you've got to consistently make the same argument for Reagan and others. I'm consistent in that I'm willing to judge each president's contributions consistently.

I'm not saying we can't give credit to Obama for anything good that has happened. I'm just saying let's make a good strong argument for it, instead of taking it on faith.

That's what follow from YOUR logic. Not mine. YOU are the one that went down that road when you said that all we had were correlations. Don't put that off on me.

Correlations are fine, but falsifiable hypotheses backed by correlations and cause and effect are much better.
 
You provided no nexus between the two. You asked about Obama's policies. I gave you an honest answer. They are very good for the reasons I gave. You then rejected my premises as being only correlative. Now you are saying we can look to the past to figure out the future.... DUH!, That IS my point.

Look, either my premises are just as valid as your premises or neither are. You can't have it both ways where your correlative evidence supports your conclusions but mine are disallowed.

So, which is it?

See above. I'm asking for strong arguments. "It happened under his watch" is not a good argument on it's own.
 
I'm not saying we can't give credit to Obama for anything good that has happened. I'm just saying let's make a good strong argument for it, instead of taking it on faith.
Which is why I pointed out Stiglitz and Krugman. There is a good strong argument for many if not most of Obama's economic policies.

Correlations are fine, but falsifiable hypotheses backed by correlations and cause and effect are much better.
At the risk of repeating myself, socioeconomics in a nation of 300,000,000 people is a complex dynamic that is sensitive to initial conditions and small changes (see Butterfly Effect). You cannot model every possible variable. Unless you have a time machine to re-run any given scenario with a change to a variable, then there is nothing falsifiable about the past. And it is the past that you and I both rely on. I'm sorry but that's just the nature of the beast.
 
The issue, in a nutshell, is the GOP claim that the Administration has a habit of trying to associate a portion of the responsibility for terror attacks to America's own behavior. If Obama truly had no information, then he simply assumed that the attacks were in response to the video, and that supports the Republican argument that Obama has a "Blame America" assumption. If he really didn't know, then he should not have mentioned the video.
But that is true. Part of why they attack us is our own behavior. So Obama would be correct in bringing that up. Now it doesn't mean our behavior actually is bad but it is why they attack us.
Let me clarify. The GOP argument is that Obama associates a potion of the responsibility for error attacks on American behavior that Obama thinks Americans shouldn't do.

So when Obama says (according to GOP interpretation of his statements) we should respect Islam, implying that our disrespect is a cause of the attacks, he is saying Americans should treat Islam differently than other religions. (For instance, by not drawing cartoons of Mohammed, and not making disrespectful movies in which Mohammed is a character.) In other words, form the GOP perspective, Obama is not raising American's behavior as explanation but as a partial exculpation.

And in the context of the Rose Garden comments, that's a perfectly valid (not not exclusive) interpretation. Rather than blame the terrorists solely for the attack, Obama interjected a statement about not doing things to disrespect other people's religions, which, in context can only refer to the anti-Mohammed YouTube video that, at the time, some people in the Administration had said triggered the attack. There is no reason to bring that up unless he is saying that we shouldn't be disrespectful about Islam because they might try to kill us for it.

It can be seen as a "Blame America" attitude, particularly when the actions that are being blamed are private citizens' actions that fall squarely within permissible behavior. If Obama were blaming, for instance, past US government actions (like America's past support for regional villains like the Shah, Saddam Hussein, and Mubarak), that would be more appropriate. (It would also have been nonsensical because nobody thinks those to be significant factors.) Rather, he is raising things that Americans sort of think are their Constitutional rights, such as being allowed to ridicule other people's cherished beliefs. And he's not doing it to educate Americans about the Middle East. He is doing it, so the GOP interprets it, to spread the blame, to say "Our hands aren't clean". And that's a strong emotional argument in their favor, if they can convince the American people to interpret the President's statements that way.

Now, Obama can certainly explain away these statements, but the more times he referenced American behavior when discussing violent attacks against Americans, the more the GOP story is going to stick and the less the Democratic position will sound palatable.

Fortunately, Romney bumbled the attack in debate two. We'll see if he correct sin debate three, or if Obama is able to turn it around.
 
Obama interjected a statement about not doing things to disrespect other people's religions, which, in context can only refer to the anti-Mohammed YouTube video that, at the time, some people in the Administration had said triggered the attack. There is no reason to bring that up unless he is saying that we shouldn't be disrespectful about Islam because they might try to kill us for it.

It can be seen as a "Blame America" attitude...
That is such rank BS. As one who actively participates in Draw Mohammad day I can say that Obama's words do not at all constitute "blame America" attitude. Diplomacy is a critical factor in running a nation. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a president calling for respect of other cultures and beliefs.
 
Hmm, to which should I assign more weight...?

A second hand anecdote posted at a right wing blog?

Or the fact that "Obamacare" was endorsed by the American Medical Association, American College of Physicians, American Academy of Family Physicians, American College of Surgeons, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American Society of Anesthesiologists, American Osteopathic Association, American Psychiatric Association, and the American College of Cardiology?
Assign all the weight you wish to the steering committees of those organizations.

I have seven physicians (the link plus 6 of mine) that don't agree.
 
Assign all the weight you wish to the steering committees of those organizations.

I have seven physicians (the link plus 6 of mine) that don't agree.
That's easy. I'll go with the organizations and I think your attack on them is weak.

American Medical Association, American College of Physicians, American Academy of Family Physicians, American College of Surgeons, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American Society of Anesthesiologists, American Osteopathic Association, American Psychiatric Association, and the American College of Cardiology?
 
...

If I can't base on opinion based on the available evidence then what's the point?

...
Debt at 16 trillion, GDP growth anemic, many more on foodstamps, 20+ million un- or under-employed ... what other evidence do you have?
 
Debt at 16 trillion, GDP growth anemic, many more on foodstamps, 20+ million un- or under-employed ... what other evidence do you have?
Housing and auto industries stabilized, stock market doing extremely well, great gains on the war on international terror, forward-looking policy on social issues, almost all indicators point to ongoing recovery, and most important, not returning to the policies that led to the recession. Much better evidence than Romney is providing... of anything.
 
This, in itself, should be a top reason not to vote for Romney.
I see. Can you tell us Obama's specific plans? I haven't heard any other than tax the rich and give the proceeds to takers.

I find that a top reason not to vote for Obama, and have difficulty understanding the continuing pro-Obama Derangement Syndrome.
 
So I just watched the movie Argo and remember I'm a bit young so I don't know the history. But after watching the beginning of the film where they talk about that I actually thought "Wait, isn't America the real asshats in this one?"
Supporting the Shah got oil consumers 20+- more years before the 1973 price shock.

My thought after watching Argo was we are not going to stop these maniacs from getting nukes (or at least support Israel in doing so).
 
Debt at 16 trillion, GDP growth anemic, many more on foodstamps, 20+ million un- or under-employed ... what other evidence do you have?
Given the nightmare Bush and his policies gave us I'm pretty happy with where we are at. I wish it were better but blaming all of that on Obama is, IMO, seriously dishonest.
 
I see. Can you tell us Obama's specific plans? I haven't heard any other than tax the rich and give the proceeds to takers.

I find that a top reason not to vote for Obama, and have difficulty understanding the continuing pro-Obama Derangement Syndrome.
First off we need to avoid a return to the Bush policies. That's priority #1. Obama has done that and brought us back from the brink of disaster (no thank you George Bush). I can't imagine wanting to go back to that. I honestly do not understand that.
 
And bear in mind that it was the GOP that made the case that a combination of spending cuts and tax increases WAS an optimal plan for getting the economy moving again.

[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img402/2964/fisccalconsolidation.jpg[/qimg]

That's from the GOP report. It's THEIR plan. The title of the plan? Spend Less, Owe Less, Grow the Economy
I've admitted before I didn't find the tax rates that will result in the 15% revenue increase; do you know what changes are needed, or does anyone know?
 
I've admitted before I didn't find the tax rates that will result in the 15% revenue increase; do you know what changes are needed, or does anyone know?
Contact the GOP economists who wrote the report.
 
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