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2012 Debates

RandFan said:
Yeah, well, the GOP are no strangers to hypocrisy.
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Unfortunately this is true.

It's Doublethink in the real world....

To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself – that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.

Orwell, George / Nineteen Eighty-Four.
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Regnad Kcin said:
Biden-Obama 2016!
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If Obama (or Bill Clinton) were vice-president in a 2016 scenario, he would only be allowed to serve for two years if something should happen to Biden. Then, the speaker of the house is next in line for the presidency. :jaw-dropp
 
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2 things I need to say:
The grinning: there actually is someone grinning in the first 10 minutes of the debate. Watch it again. It's Ryan. Biden does not grin while discussing dead diplomats. Ryan does. Is he thinking that this is a great opening for him? I don't know but it seems plausible.

2nd: what I think happened here: there is a mythical Biden and a mythical Ryan.
The mythical Biden is the Gaffe-Machine. The mythical Ryan is the smartest guy in any room he would choose to occupy, a Randian Übermensch.

But since both are myths, they couldn't show up. Instead there was real Biden and real Ryan. Strong debater Biden wipes the floor with "I got pretty eyes" Ryan.
If you believed in the myths before now you have 2 options: discard the myth, or find excuses for mythical Ryans failure to show up. And the best defense is a good offense, so let's attack Bidens "rudeness"
 
Toontown said:
Well, since no one else seems to have the guts or the political honesty to say it, I will.

I am a member of the 47% who receive some kind of government assistance, and I am neither ashamed nor offended by Romney's remarks. I got my government assistance the old fashioned way - I earned it.

It is, however, factually unlikely that many of the 47% will vote for Romney, which was what Romney said, and which was his point.
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What makes you think you earned it?
Are you net positive payments made vs funds recieved?
If yes, do you think that somebody who took out more than he paid in didn't earn it?
What's the point of paying into a collective fund, if everybody gets to take out just as much as they paid in?

At the end of your life you will fall into one of 2 groups of people. Those who took out more than they paid in, or you will be one of those who paid more than they got out. But no matter what, you didn't "earn it"

Besides: there once was a tumblr. "we are the 53%" where people posted their stories. Funny enough most stories posted there were definitely in the 47%! and half of them *will* vote romney.
 
magellan said:
2 things I need to say:
The grinning: there actually is someone grinning in the first 10 minutes of the debate. Watch it again. It's Ryan. Biden does not grin while discussing dead diplomats. Ryan does. Is he thinking that this is a great opening for him? I don't know but it seems plausible.
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In fairness it was just one of the issues where the truth wasn't entirely forthcoming.
 
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magellan said:
2 things I need to say:
The grinning: there actually is someone grinning in the first 10 minutes of the debate. Watch it again. It's Ryan. Biden does not grin while discussing dead diplomats. Ryan does. Is he thinking that this is a great opening for him? I don't know but it seems plausible.

2nd: what I think happened here: there is a mythical Biden and a mythical Ryan.
The mythical Biden is the Gaffe-Machine. The mythical Ryan is the smartest guy in any room he would choose to occupy, a Randian Übermensch.

But since both are myths, they couldn't show up. Instead there was real Biden and real Ryan. Strong debater Biden wipes the floor with "I got pretty eyes" Ryan.
If you believed in the myths before now you have 2 options: discard the myth, or find excuses for mythical Ryans failure to show up. And the best defense is a good offense, so let's attack Bidens "rudeness"
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I think this is a solid analysis, but then again, I didn't watch the debate. Each of us constructs our own narratives, but the Right has a far more serious problem with "epistemic closure." I actually anticipated seeing this more in the first debate: For the past three and a half years Obama has been portrayed as a lazy, vacation-taking, teleprompter reading empty suit, and the Dittoits would not have a frame of reality to fall back if he performed well. Unfortunately, Obama was apparently clobbered in the first debate, reinforcing their view of the world (and causing some panic among the Presidents followers).

I recall in Randian George H. Smith's book Atheism: The Case Against God (which isn't very good to anyone except a teenagers, which is when I read it) and he makes three points about rational beliefs:

1. They must be based on evidence.
2. They must be self-consistent (i.e. no circle-squares).
3. They must be consistent with all of our other beliefs.

That last is often the most difficult hurdle. If anyone encounters something that threatens to bring down their belief structure, then he will usually find a way to dismiss inelegant data: "that study does not control for x," "the free market will control quality BETTER than the government," whatever.

I'd say they're also more hard-core team players, and fill out an explanation with Dunning-Kruger effect, but I could be wrong (even though I'm not).
 
ProbeX said:
Romney, like the Biden, was aggressive and cut people off. That you harbor righteous indignation re: Biden's behavior while calling Romney's behavior "civilized", indicates your bias may be getting the best of you.
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The fact that you misinterpret "those two" as "Romney" indicates your bias has long since robbed you of your last smidgeon of credibility.
 
magellan said:
What makes you think you earned it?
Are you net positive payments made vs funds recieved?
If yes, do you think that somebody who took out more than he paid in didn't earn it?
What's the point of paying into a collective fund, if everybody gets to take out just as much as they paid in?

At the end of your life you will fall into one of 2 groups of people. Those who took out more than they paid in, or you will be one of those who paid more than they got out. But no matter what, you didn't "earn it"

Besides: there once was a tumblr. "we are the 53%" where people posted their stories. Funny enough most stories posted there were definitely in the 47%! and half of them *will* vote romney.
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And what makes you think I'm going to stand still for your little monkey-dance interrogation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMVGJVgsoHg
 
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So another debate again tonight....

Any predictions?

I will take a stab, I think Obama is going to be a lot more willing to step in and call BS when he sees it. I think he is always more of a "work together" type over an "attack the other guy" type so he is going to be pretty passive in his aggressiveness. But I do think he is going to have a little more fire tonight all in all.

I also predict the moderator is going to be more in control of this debate than the first Romney / Obama match up.
 
not_so_new said:
So another debate again tonight....

Any predictions?

I will take a stab, I think Obama is going to be a lot more willing to step in and call BS when he sees it. I think he is always more of a "work together" type over an "attack the other guy" type so he is going to be pretty passive in his aggressiveness. But I do think he is going to have a little more fire tonight all in all.

I also predict the moderator is going to be more in control of this debate than the first Romney / Obama match up.
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I predict that Obama will do very well, but that the media will declare him the loser or will declare him rude or will focus on one tiny thing, and we will hear nothing at all about the lies and evasions that Romney has as his stock in trade.
 
BenBurch said:
I predict that Obama will do very well, but that the media will declare him the loser or will declare him rude or will focus on one tiny thing, and we will hear nothing at all about the lies and evasions that Romney has as his stock in trade.
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Yeah, I'm beginning to think the talking heads are superficial and silly. Facts seem not to matter when it comes to debates. It's all about style and how much or how little you smirk.
 
RandFan said:
Yeah, I'm beginning to think the talking heads are superficial and silly. Facts seem not to matter when it comes to debates. It's all about style and how much or how little you smirk.
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You are just beginning to think that?

:D

That said, I agree with both you and Ben. When I went to bed after the last debate I was pretty confident that Obama held his own. When I woke up I saw that all the "left wing" media people were freak'n OUT.

It's all about who has what opinion directly after the debate. That's why the talking heads get on directly after the debate to try and sway that first reaction.

The media makes money off of this stuff so they are going to make comments based on what draws viewers. I am SURE they are truly fan boys and girls for their party. I have no doubt that the people on Fox believe in the GOP just like the people on MSNBC buy the Dens stuff hook line and sinker. While this is true I think it is in their best interest to have a closer race.

I think Ben is spot on, no matter what Obama does it is going to be criticized for everything BUT... I will also predict that Romney is going to take more heat this time because he currently looks like he is on an upward trend (even if the numbers don't necessarily match this perception).
 
I predict Dems will see it as an Obama win, Reps will think Romney cleaned the floor with Obama, Libertarians will bemoan Johnson's absence, Fox will maliciously edit the video they show and, finally, sir-drinks-a-lot and Virus will post some one-liners that will make everyone slap their forehead and say, "OMG" and switch their vote to David Duke.
 
SezMe said:
I predict Dems will see it as an Obama win, Reps will think Romney cleaned the floor with Obama, Libertarians will bemoan Johnson's absence, Fox will maliciously edit the video they show and, finally, sir-drinks-a-lot and Virus will post some one-liners that will make everyone slap their forehead and say, "OMG" and switch their vote to David Duke.
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I predict many massive hangovers in the morning :)
 
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