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2012 Debates

Obama clearly believes that citizens need the government to protect them from them selves.

So does Romney and so do most conservatives. Thinking citizens need government to protect them from themselves in some area is practically obligatory for most political philosophies.
 
Doesn't every candidate say that they're going to sit down with leaders from both parties and get them to work together? Does it ever work? I think that's why Presidents look like they age so much more than 4 or 8 years when they're in office. Day 1 of the Presidency is orientation. Day 2 is meeting with the leaders of both parties. Day 3 is "what the hell did I get myself into? There's no way these dopes can work together?" Fast forward 4 or 8 years and the President looks like he's actually aged about 20 years.
Reminds me of the only good thing to come out of the Mike Gravel candidacy. Paraphrasing about being in the sentate, "For the first 6 months you wonder 'how did I get here' and after that 'you wonder how did these other bozos get here'" Worth memorializing.
 
My take: Obama looked down too much. If Romney were female, he would be labeled "shrill".

In this thread one can see massive confirmation bias in action. If you're a Rep, Romney kicked butt. If you're a Dem, Obama did what he had to do. Upshot: No change.
 
I see we're into full spin mode in the Politics sub-forum.

Does anyone of either political stripe think their guy lost? I'll weigh in as a pinko progressive. Romney gets a marginal W. It was no slam-dunk, but he did look more in control and did play to the known weakness Obama would have - being in a prevent defense. Romney ran the ball up and down the field, but couldn't get it across the goal line. That safety in the first quarter gives him a slight edge.
 
My dad brought up something interesting: in the 2000 debates Al Gore came out in the first debate with fire getting in about twice as many words and citing lots of figures. But it didn't help him in the polls much. Actually it seemed to counter-intuitively hurt him.

Was Obama coached to not press the issues this time around?

Anywho I think Romney seemed more on point even if his actual words made no sense. We'll see if it actually helps him in the long run.
 
Obama lost the debate. Even MSNBC accepts that fact. The President has been gutless from day one when confronting Republicans. He deserves to lose. I won't vote for him. Maybe after the new President shows how clueless conservatives really are, a fighter for liberal values will emerge to challenge the Right and he or she will stand tall. Obama had his chance and he failed.
:rolleyes: WTH?
 
Obama lost the debate. Even MSNBC accepts that fact. The President has been gutless from day one when confronting Republicans. He deserves to lose. I won't vote for him. Maybe after the new President shows how clueless conservatives really are, a fighter for liberal values will emerge to challenge the Right and he or she will stand tall. Obama had his chance and he failed.
Does the phrase which begins, cut off your nose...

ring a bell?
 
Ok... Having seen it I'd say Romney won, but by basically admitting he had no real plans on key issues he lessened his victory by a fair amount.
 
In this thread one can see massive confirmation bias in action. If you're a Rep, Romney kicked butt. If you're a Dem, Obama did what he had to do. Upshot: No change.

This ^

Glad I skipped the whole debate. Got some good reading done, though, and I wrote up a nice blog post. You know, a productive evening :)
 
Well, without reading what the professionals have to say, I'm going to call this a marginal strategic victory for Obama. Admittedly I've already declared Romney toast, but this does nothing to change my perception.

Not just for the prevent defense. Obviously Romney needs a major shakeup and he didn't get it, and time is running out.

Romney looked pretty solid on stage. No obvious screwups. Decently aggressive without being rabid. Seemed to be in command of the subject material. He also scored well in terms of reiterating his attack on Obama, even if it included repeated references to patent nonsense (e.g., "stole $716B from Medicare).

However... he wasted a lot of time on subjects that are low-return for him, if not actually dangerous. Example, the repeated attacks on Obamacare (now that Obama has embraced the name, I'll stop referring to ACA as such as well) will. not. help. He's already got the folks on his side who are worried about it, and his strongest demographic -- seniors -- already hesitate to trust him on the related subject of Medicare. On the minus side, he can appear to be caving on the provisions of Obamacare, which should scare his base, but won't win any converts elsewhere. Worst of all, it forces him to thread the needle between Obamacare and the Massachusetts plan (Romney has not embraced the term "Romneycare," gee, I wonder why). The longer he stays in those waters, the more risk he takes.

Similar for education. You and I and everyone studying this already knows his tax and budget plans either ravage federal education funding, or are total fantasy (I choose column B), but most folks watching won't know or won't care. What they hear is a mixture of "education for everyone" and "kill wasteful evil federal government," and there's no clear message. Muddled messages are a minefield -- is he actually thinking of continuing support for teacher's unions? the hard right will wonder -- and I give him credit for dancing out of it, dropping just enough carefully coded language about education vouchers to escape intact, but that's a fight he shouldn't ever have gotten into in the first place. He has no way to win on that issue.

Romney laid down his attacks efficiently, but they're all old attacks. They haven't won the race for him thus far, and they won't in the future. Obama certainly started slow and didn't throw too many punches, but he doesn't have to.

What it comes down to is this: Did Romney gain anything from this debate he can use later? And the answer is a resounding "no." Obama on the other hand teased several details and new positions and promises out of Romney that we haven't heard before, all of them things that can be turned to an advantage. Scarily, he did so despite being even more wooden than usual on stage. But I wouldn't call that an unforced error on Romney's part, rather I see this as the logical result of Obama's strategy. His record is public and his defenses are limited. Yet he still manages to give Romney more and more rope, and those knots have tightened marvellously since the DNC.

The one clear win for Romney is that he won the battle of expectations. Turns out all the hedging and backpedaling and underselling both campaigns did was spot on after all. Romney did win the optical battle, clearly holding his own against the President so long as we ignore the actual words spoken (most of which admittedly were fluff on both sides, as always). But I don't think this is enough to make much difference. At the end of the day this will go down in history as a forgotten debate, its only strategic value being a sort of spoiler for Romney's continuing roll-out of his forever malleable policies, and that is blow that he surely cannot afford.
 
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I see we're into full spin mode in the Politics sub-forum.

Does anyone of either political stripe think their guy lost? I'll weigh in as a pinko progressive. Romney gets a marginal W. It was no slam-dunk, but he did look more in control and did play to the known weakness Obama would have - being in a prevent defense. Romney ran the ball up and down the field, but couldn't get it across the goal line. That safety in the first quarter gives him a slight edge.

No, Romney did well, but he did not do well enough, which was probably impossible for him. All Obama needed to do was not say anything stupid.

So We have a "winner" but not really a loser. But as you say, few minds change.
 
I see we're into full spin mode in the Politics sub-forum.

Does anyone of either political stripe think their guy lost? I'll weigh in as a pinko progressive. Romney gets a marginal W. It was no slam-dunk, but he did look more in control and did play to the known weakness Obama would have - being in a prevent defense. Romney ran the ball up and down the field, but couldn't get it across the goal line. That safety in the first quarter gives him a slight edge.

I, an Obama supporter, think that Obama lost the battle. But I also think that it might help him win the war, as Romney supplied snippets that Obama can use in commercials, such as Romney's contradictions (e.g., for more teachers and for less spending) and Romney's admissions that he has no real plans.
 
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This ^

Glad I skipped the whole debate. Got some good reading done, though, and I wrote up a nice blog post. You know, a productive evening :)

I was trying to play WoT but they were babbling about the debate & getting me killed.
 
I see we're into full spin mode in the Politics sub-forum.

Does anyone of either political stripe think their guy lost? I'll weigh in as a pinko progressive. Romney gets a marginal W. It was no slam-dunk, but he did look more in control and did play to the known weakness Obama would have - being in a prevent defense. Romney ran the ball up and down the field, but couldn't get it across the goal line. That safety in the first quarter gives him a slight edge.
This is pretty much my take. Obama (still) gets too wonky -- belaboring fine points when he needs to be punchy. Not the worst shortcoming in the world.

When they were discussing tax loopholes, I was disappointed that Obama didn't get the words Cayman Islands and Swiss bank accounts into the flow, not specific to Romney of course. :cool:
 
Snap poll indicates 32% thought it was a tie.


Was Obama potentially sick? I couldn't shake the feeling that Obama was dealing with something. The way he searched for words and took a long time to say anything was similar to how I am when I'm under the weather.

He seemed reserved or thinking about his answer. He is the President after all ain't like he don't know what's going on ~ He has the advantage.

Tim :)
 
It will take a few days for Romney to get fact checked, but once he is, it will be clear who lost. His many departures from the truth were stunning, and his change of stance on many positions was news-making. Obama did what he needed to do. There was no point in confronting Romney and calling him a liar.

It's much like Dawkins trying to debate Ken Ham. The Gish Gallop, and lies make it a fool's errand. Romney's speaking style struck me as manic, reminding me of some JREF posters who post with single spaced text and no punctuation or capital letters.

I agree though that Obama appeared off his game. I think he is just sick and tired of arguing with liars in congress and elsewhere. I have also noticed lately that he seems fatigued when delivering his speeches.

Romnney's smirk is very annoying, plus the slight head tilt. I think it is a facial tic, and not something he does consciously to denote any condescension. Some of his sons also have the Romney smirk. Also, I have known several Mormons who have this "smile" pasted on. Perhaps it's a Mormon thing?

Jim Lehrer was very bad as a moderator.
 
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