20/20 Friday (WARNING: Gun Control thread!)

[LW]

Finns, with general population armed, kicked USSR's ass in 1938. Yeah, the guerillas can be damn effective against a regimented army...

I think that I've once promised to stay away of all gun control threads but since military history in general and Finnish military history in particular is one of my hobbies, I think I should give some more information on this point.

First, Finns had two wars against Soviet Union during WWII, first 1939-40 and second 1941-44. Your comments fit better in the context of Winter War (the earlier one).

It is rather misleading to state that it was a guerilla war. Almost all Finns who participated in it were part of regular military forces, and most major battles (Summa, Taipale, Muolaa, Kollaa, Viipuri Bay, Tammisuo, etc.) were WWI-syle Soviet frontal attacks against prepared defences. The most famous (and succesful) guerilla actions (Suomussalmi and Raate road) were against Soviet divisions who had been tied to a single road and whose advance had been stopped by relatively small defending forces. Then, small (platoon or two at first) units started to raid Soviet flanks. These attacks culminated in encirclements where roughly batallion-sized forces cut the roads behind the main bulk of Soviet divisions and dug in. At Suomussalmi the 169th Infantry Division managed to save its manpower by retreating over a frozen lake (they lost all heavy equipment, though) but the 44th Mechanized Division was almost completely destroyed along Raate road. [The commander of 44th Division was sentenced to death by a military tribunal headed by Lev Mehlis. According to a persistent legend the official reason was that "he lost 38 field kitchens to the enemy."]

The pre-war Finnish society had definitely much more weapons than we currently have. Most people lived in rural areas and hunting was a common hobby. I don't remember seeing any hard data on the number of privately owned weapons, though, so I can't say whether we can say that Finland had generally armed population or not.

However, I believe that a more important fact was the existence of the Suojeluskunta ("Protection Guard") that was a patriotic organization that gave voluntary military training for roughly 65000 men before the war.
Suojeluskunta members formed a well-trained and well-motivated core of most infantry companies.

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

Let me ask you this: Do you think he'd have any problems getting drugs? I mean, it's not like he could walk to WalMart and buy them...

Ah yes but guns are so much harder to grow in your back yard....

Criminals aren't deterred by legalities.

But they are by availability, which is determined by legalities.

Uh-huh. Your only response is sarcasm. But it happens, no matter how much people like you want their heads stuck in the sand. Many women carry for their own protection, and it works.

I really doubt this.

So do you have statsistics showing there is more rape in britain and japan then in the US?

Which is armed even more than the US with a mcuh lower crime rate of anywhere in Europe. I only needed one to refute your insanity

They are also much smaller and I imagine have less economic problems.

 

[scotth]

Ah yes but guns are so much harder to grow in your back yard....


But they are by availability, which is determined by legalities.


They are also much smaller and I imagine have less economic problems.

I guess meth, heroin, x, and cocaine grow in your backyard then?

Do you think that most criminals purchase firearms legally?

We are supposed to be the richest nation in the world. Wouldn't anywhere else have more economic problems by definition?

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

I guess meth, heroin, x, and cocaine grow in your backyard then?

Can be smuggled in far easier from south america then guns I imagine. As there is more demand and profit in it.

Do you think that most criminals purchase firearms legally?

Probably not.

We are supposed to be the richest nation in the world. Wouldn't anywhere else have more economic problems by definition?

Actually no. We are also bigger then other countries (which explains a lot) and money is not spread out evenly but on a hiearchal and regional basis. Also we have a denser population.

 

[scotth]

Can be smuggled in far easier from south america then guns I imagine. As there is more demand and profit in it.


Actually no. We are also bigger then other countries (which explains a lot) and money is not spread out evenly but on a hiearchal and regional basis. Also we have a denser population.

There is plenty of demand and profit in illegal weapons. That is why there is a weapons black market.

The percentage of people living in poverty in the US is close to if not the lowest in the world. We most certainly do no have a denser population than average.

poverty cite - Couldn't find a source that even had the U.S. on the list when looking at the percentage of population living in poverty.

population density cite - http://www.mrdowling.com/800density.html

 

[shanek]

Oh yes very plausible, And I presume nothing could go wrong there....

It usually doesn't. Look at the statistics. Once every 13 seconds, it goes right. Two and a half million times a year.

Ah yes and my parody is so much less realistic and logical then your idea of civilians facing off against professional armies and armed intruders....

Yes, it is. Read More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott.

And can the typical man afford the risk? Is it really worth risking your's and your families life to save some household products?

We're talking about saving your and your family's life from a violent criminal whose intentions are unknown.

"Household products"...That has to be the most moronic thing I've heard a gun control proponent say!

Also a lot of times they go after houses for guns,

That assertion is not borne out by the evidence.

i.e. vigilantaism.

Self-defense is viginaltism?

That's bull.

What a sound and cogent rebuttal. You are a credit to skeptics everywhere.

http://www.shadeslanding.com/firearms/kasler-protection.html
http://www.mcsm.org/noduty1.html
http://www.surviveall.net/police_have_no_duty_to_protect_i.htm

Case after case after case. Now stick your fingers in your ears and sing really loudly so you don't have to hear anything else that contradicts your precious delusions.

Unwarranted speculation which does not explain why there was such a lack of crime in the wild west.

There was an almost complete lack of crime in the so-called "Wild West." Usually when there was a problem, it was due to police and marshals trying to impose gun control, which is exactly what happened at the OK Corral.

Ah yes the true nature of your arguments: right-wing extremism.

Ah yes the true nature of your arguments: name-calling. And what's pathetic is that you apparently have no idea how clueless this makes you look.

Yes but again for every success there are dozens of failures.

Provide evidence for this.

That's what being open minded and critical is all about.

You have shown no indication whatsoever that you are being in any was open-minded anbd critical. All you have are assertions, and your only rebuttals are steadfast denial and name-calling.

 

[shanek]

Ah yes but guns are so much harder to grow in your back yard....

Crack grows in your backyard? Meth grows in your backyard? X grows in your backyard?

But they are by availability, which is determined by legalities.

Then explain why cocaine, heroin, etc. are so much more available now, especially in large quantities, since they were made illegal.

So do you have statsistics showing there is more rape in britain and japan then in the US?

I do not claim that there is more rape in the UK and Japan. That's your own blathering. Cross-cultural comparisons are all but worthless. The UK has never had high amounts of crime, even when weapons were readily available.

They are also much smaller and I imagine have less economic problems.

So, I guess then, that the UK and Japan, being much, much smaller than the US, would see the same effect (and the same lower crime rate) as a result?

Man, I've seen gun control advocates put nails in their own coffin before, but you put yours in the ground and performed the service!

 

[shanek]

Can be smuggled in far easier from south america then guns I imagine. As there is more demand and profit in it.

You don't think there would be more demand and profit in a black market of guns if they were banned?

For crying out loud, we have a black market in toilets in this country!

Probably not.

So how would they be stopped by gun legislation?

Actually no. We are also bigger then other countries (which explains a lot) and money is not spread out evenly but on a hiearchal and regional basis. Also we have a denser population.

Now, wait a minute—above you said that Switzerland had a lower crime rate than the rest of Europe because it was smaller (thereby explaining away the fact that they're armed to the teeth); now you're saying we should have a lower crime rate (presumably if not for the guns) because we're bigger??? You can't have it both ways.

 

[scotth]

There was an almost complete lack of crime in the so-called "Wild West." Usually when there was a problem, it was due to police and marshals trying to impose gun control, which is exactly what happened at the OK Corral.

Even though I agree with your conclusions, I would like to see some information backing all of this.

 

[shanek]

Even though I agree with your conclusions, I would like to see some information backing all of this.

Here's a good paper on the general concept:

http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/3_1/3_1_2.pdf

 

[Victor Danilchenko]

shanek ,

You did a fine job of rebutting DialecticMaterialist's BS. This one piece amused me greatly, though:

DialecticMaterialist (writing to me): Ah yes the true nature of your arguments: right-wing extremism.

Shanek: [...] what's pathetic is that you apparently have no idea how clueless this makes you look.

That was funny. Accusing me of right-wing extremism, of all things, has got to be the funniest and stupidest thing I have seen around here has done in a while... I may have many faults, but being a right-wing extremist is not one of them.

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

There is plenty of demand and profit in illegal weapons. That is why there is a weapons black market.

Yes but are they doing well in England and France as drug pushers? I doubt it.

The percentage of people living in poverty in the US is close to if not the lowest in the world. We most certainly do no have a denser population than average.

Even in LA and New York where crime is highest?

poverty cite - Couldn't find a source that even had the U.S. on the list when looking at the percentage of population living in poverty.

Did I say highest in the world or just high compared to switzerland?

and If you couldn't find any stats-you obviously didn't look too hard.

I found three rather quickly-



http://www.census.gov/Press-Release...2/cb02-124.html

Shows US poverty rates:

http://www.childpolicyintl.org/sipoverty/table323.pdf

Comprative study that places US poverty line as higher then other industrailized nations.

CIA fact book says US citizens in poverty is 12.7 percent.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

In switzerland its so low its listed as N/A:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

Re: Post

It usually doesn't. Look at the statistics. Once every 13 seconds, it goes right. Two and a half million times a year.

A link please?

Yes, it is. Read More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott.

Proof surrogate from a biased source I imagine.

We're talking about saving your and your family's life from a violent criminal whose intentions are unknown.

http://160.133.207.103/atzp/dle/gen...onal_safety.htm

To quote the article:

The New England Journal of Medicine reports that with a gun in your home you are eight times more likely to be killed or lose a family member due to gun accidents, domestic situations and suicide.

The article makes a good point about what happens when the police come and you are waiting to shoot a criminal with your gun....

The Colorado Association for Robbery Investigations says:

Try to stay calm. Don't make any sudden movements to upset the robber.

Do exactly as you are told. DO NOT RESIST!

Activate your alarm ONLY if you can do so secretly.

Tell the robber about anything that might surprise him, such as someone who is expected to arrive soon.

If you have to move or reach, tell the robber what you are going to do and why.

Try to get a good look at the robber so you can describe him later.

Don't be a hero. It's better to lose your money than your life.

Give the robber time to leave.
Note his direction of travel when he leaves.

Try to get a description of his vehicle ONLY if you can do so without exposing yourself to harm.
-

On tips on how to survive the robbery. Note: do not resist. http://www.co-asn-rob.org/CrimeInfo...Tips/during.htm

Another police site concurs: http://www.peelpolice.on.ca/prevention/robbery.htm

adding:

Robbers are desperate people. Drugs and alcohol are often factors in robberies. Desperation, intoxication and weapons make a volatile combination

i.e. your little "they can't afford the risk" scenerio does not apply.

Another site concurs:http://www.mcpa.on.ca/resources/000075.htm

Adding:

Do not resist. Do not argue. Do not fight. Do not use anything as a weapon. Do not follow a robber out of the store. You will be safe after he is gone.

Studies by the New England Journal of Medicine, also show that keeping a gun in the home increases the risk of homocide by 2.7 percent.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/329/15/1084

From the article:

After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.6 to 4.4).

That assertion is not borne out by the evidence.

BJS study says:

BJS estimated that more than 340,000 crimes annually
involved firearm thefts.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/hvfsdaft.pr

Self-defense is viginaltism?

To an extent yes, and I don't think its the proper solution to crime.

What a sound and cogent rebuttal. You are a credit to skeptics everywhere.

http://www.shadeslanding.com/firear...protection.html
http://www.mcsm.org/noduty1.html
http://www.surviveall.net/police_ha...o_protect_i.htm

Case after case after case. Now stick your fingers in your ears and sing really loudly so you don't have to hear anything else that contradicts your precious delusions.

Basically you have some editorials in which a guy says a police man's job isn't to protect citizens....


The Police strangely enough disagree:

Values
The principles upon which we base our policing are:

Human Life - The protection of human life is our highest priority.

Ethics - We will demonstrate integrity and honor in all our actions.

Crime Fighting - Our efforts to address neighborhood problems will be based on a Partnership with the community.

Valuing People - We will treat each other with dignity and respect, protecting the rights and well-being of all individuals.

http://www.sannet.gov/police/about/mission.shtml

There was an almost complete lack of crime in the so-called "Wild West." Usually when there was a problem, it was due to police and marshals trying to impose gun control, which is exactly what happened at the OK Corral.

Oh yes the paper titled(I kid you not) "The American Expiriment in Anarcho-Capitalism: The not so Wild,Wild West." From the "Journal of Libertarian Studies".

Do I even have to comment on this?

Ah yes the true nature of your arguments: name-calling. And what's pathetic is that you apparently have no idea how clueless this makes you look.

Well seeing as I was called moron,idiot,coward and immoral I hardly think the pro-gun lobby has room to talk on this issue....

You have shown no indication whatsoever that you are being in any was open-minded anbd critical. All you have are assertions, and your only rebuttals are steadfast denial and name-calling.

Gee that's so different then the pro-gun advocates who have called me everything from a "◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ coward" to a "free-rider".

I would like to lastly point out that while gun laws have gotten tighter, crime has actually gone down in the US:


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict.htm

http://www.ncpa.org/~ncpa/studies/s219/s219a.html

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

Now, wait a minute—above you said that Switzerland had a lower crime rate than the rest of Europe because it was smaller (thereby explaining away the fact that they're armed to the teeth); now you're saying we should have a lower crime rate (presumably if not for the guns) because we're bigger??? You can't have it both ways.

And you have no clue as to what you are talking about. I was saying that the US is of course going to have more money overall then smaller nations like Britain,France and Japan. That comes by sheer size. Thus the US may be the overall wealthiest country on earth, with its people each having less wealth on average then a person in lets say, switzerland.

I in no way ever said we have a lower crime rate because we are bigger. I do believe however that higher population densities do produce more crime though and I imagine the US has a higher density then Switzerland.

The US does not have a lower crime rate then Europe, I never said it did. Seriously you should actually pay attention to what I write before commenting on it.

 

[shanek]

Yes but are they doing well in England and France as drug pushers? I doubt it.

Again: different culture, so invalid comparison. (And yes, there is a black market for guns in those countries, but any subjective claim of whether or not they're "doing well" is immaterial.)

Even in LA and New York where crime is highest?

You mean LA and NY, which have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country?

 

[shanek]

A link please?

How about a book? Or is that too much trouble for you?

Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America by Gary Kleck, professor of Criminology at FSU. The figure is from the National Firearms Defensive Use Survey, Spring, 1993.

Proof surrogate from a biased source I imagine.

Y'know, real skeptics actually check the source to see instead of making baldfaced assertions about it. But FYI, when Lott started the study, he was in favor of gun control. OOPS!!!

The article makes a good point about what happens when the police come and you are waiting to shoot a criminal with your gun....

The Colorado Association for Robbery Investigations says:

This is the thoroughly debunked Kellerman "data" again.

Just one link in a Google search of the many sites that point out how bad Kellerman's numbers are:

http://i2i.org/SuptDocs/Crime/43_to_1_fallacy.htm

Do exactly as you are told. DO NOT RESIST!

More people are injured doing this than confronting the burglar with a gun.

Studies by the New England Journal of Medicine, also show that keeping a gun in the home increases the risk of homocide by 2.7 percent.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/329/15/1084

Geez...it's like a creationist pulling out Paluxy River...This is more bogus Kellerman data.

To an extent yes, and I don't think its the proper solution to crime.

Self-defense is no solution??? You, sir, are an IDIOT!!!!!

Basically you have some editorials in which a guy says a police man's job isn't to protect citizens....

YOU FSCKING LIAR!!!! THEY CITED COURT CASES!!!!!! The "Sharon P." case; Riss v. City of New York; Janice Lancaster...did you actually bother to read it? Or is that too much for your pathetic little brain to let in information that just may possibly diagree with your delusions???

You make me SICK!!!

The Police strangely enough disagree:

Then explain why police pretty much everywhere are in favor of concealed carry.

http://www.guntruths.com/Myths/most_police_personnel_favor_gun_.htm

A 1992 poll by the National Association of Chiefs of Police demonstrated overwhelming support for private firearms ownership. They resoundingly rejected gun control as effective crime control. A more recent survey of San Diego's rank-and-file officers emphatically mirrored these results, as did an even more comprehensive study in Pennsylvania.

Do I even have to comment on this?

Why? You haven't commented on anything else, except to call it names. But people like you can't argue the data, because you'll lose, so you insult the sources.

I would like to lastly point out that while gun laws have gotten tighter,

More BS. Firearm ownership has risen in the US over the last several years.

 

[shanek]

The US does not have a lower crime rate then Europe, I never said it did. Seriously you should actually pay attention to what I write before commenting on it.

Why don't YOU pay attention to what I wrote??? You've blatantly misrepresented me here, possibly because you know you're caught. I didn't say you claimed that, but showed that your logic with Switzerland would conclude that about the US!!! But no, you misrepresent my views and claim that it was me who wasn't paying attention. Sheesh...

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

You mean LA and NY, which have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country?

Maybe they do so for a reason?

 

[shanek]

Maybe they do so for a reason?

Backpedal again, DM. And ignore every other single point I made while you're at it.

You're just a woo-woo. You assert one thing, until it's refuted, then you assert the exact opposite to cover for it.

 

[Pyrrho]

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/2017427/detail.html

Police said that two men committed an armed robbery at about 8:30 a.m. at the Food Liner, located at 1950 E. 5th Ave. As the suspects ran from the North Side convenience store, the clerk grabbed a gun that he stores and opened fire on the pair.

Yes, folks, armed robbery is a dangerous profession.