18 Minute Error In Pentagon Collapse Time.

[Moving On]

I am soliciting opinions regarding some information that is new to me. I have asked for the conspiratorial POV elsewhere.

The official reports for the time of the Pentagon collapse state that it collapsed at 09:57.

Today I realized that in fact, it actually collapsed at 10:15.

The summary of the evidence is:

1) The WUSA9 photographer had a time stamp of 10:15.
2) At least two continuous live news broadcasts put it at 10:15 (the program director confirmed the footage is a recording of their live broadcast via email with me).
3) The recording of Incident Command that I have from a scanner puts it at 10:15.

This may seem innocuous but I know that the FD and Cencom have the ability to correlate all broadcasts to the exact time. They clearly state when they had "structural collapse" in the recording. I was able to quickly figure it out. So they could have as well.

So why would ALL official reports for over 5 years now have this time off for 18 minutes?

Please just provide thoughtful observations.

Here is a LC thread on it.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=15932

 

[Arus808]

where did you get the 10:15 am time?

 

[pomeroo]

I am soliciting opinions regarding some information that is new to me. I have asked for the conspiratorial POV elsewhere.

The official reports for the time of the Pentagon collapse state that it collapsed at 09:57.

Today I realized that in fact, it actually collapsed at 10:15.

The summary of the evidence is:

1) The WUSA9 photographer had a time stamp of 10:15.
2) At least two continuous live news broadcasts put it at 10:15 (the program director confirmed the footage is a recording of their live broadcast via email with me).
3) The recording of Incident Command that I have from a scanner puts it at 10:15.

This may seem innocuous but I know that the FD and Cencom have the ability to correlate all broadcasts to the exact time. They clearly state when they had "structural collapse" in the recording. I was able to quickly figure it out. So they could have as well.

So why would ALL official reports for over 5 years now have this time off for 18 minutes?

Please just provide thoughtful observations.

Here is a LC thread on it.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=15932

The Impossibly Vast Conspiracy, with its thousands of members and unlimited resources, was using a broken watch.

 

[Moving On]

I will wait for the thoughtful members of this forum to respond.

Thanks!

 

[Arus808]

well, you could answer how you arrived at 10:15 am as the collapse time

ETA: and have you taken into conisderation that not everyone has the same time on their watches? electronic devices?

I dont even think my digital camera has the correct time or date on it.

 

[Wolfman]

"At 9:55, the incident commander ordered an evacuation of the Pentagon impact area because a partial collapse was imminent; it occurred at 9:57, and no first responder was injured."

My immediate reaction is that you are confused as to what "it" refers to. You interpret "it" as referring to the collapse; I interpret "it" as referring to the evacuation. Let me re-write this a little:

"At 9:55, the incident commander ordered an evacuation of the Pentagon impact area because a partial collapse was imminent; the evacuation occurred at 9:57, and no first responder was injured"

This makes complete sense within the context, and shows no contradiction whatsoever with any of the "evidence" that you've offered about anything. Unless you have other transcripts that demonstrate that this person was explicitly referring to "the collapse" and not "the evacuation", I don't see how this has any merit whatsoever.

 

[Brainache]

Is it possible that the building didn't collapse all at once like the WTC buildings? Might it have started to fall to pieces at 9.57 and finally fell in a heap by about 10.15? I don't know if this idea has any merit, but given that the Pentagon had a lot of concrete and thicker floors it seems possible to me.

 

[pomeroo]

I will wait for the thoughtful members of this forum to respond.

Thanks!

I'll try again.

For six years, no one has noticed an eighteen-minute discrepancy, proving beyond reasonable doubt that an imaginary, mathematically-impossible conspiracy was responsible for the deeds those damned inconvenient jihadists insist on taking credit for.

You should join Lyte Trip in rushing to a real news outlet with your evidence. Fame and fortune await.

 

[Moving On]

The time is arrived at by the various resources I listed. The situation can be reviewed in the LC thread I linked.

Wolfman - listen to this at the 5:17 mark and you will see the structural collapse occurred then immediately after they initiated the fireground evacuation. They did say the fireground was evacuated at 10:15 in the same reports so this part is still correct.

http://www.pentagonresearch.com/lc2/pgon06.mp3

Except for Wolfman and possibly one other I hope you can see that you are the polar oppisite of the hard core conspiracy theorist. You don't read before you speak and you jump to conclusions. You are EXACTLY the same but totally different.

 

[ref]

You might want to read, what the Pentagon report says

http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf

The collapse initiated at the fifth floor along the building expansion joint, proceeded continuously and was completed within a few seconds. According to the Arlington County after-action report, this occurred at 9:57 a.m., or 19 minutes after impact.

So, the collapse occurred at 9:57. Or the Arlington County after-action report is wrong or lying. I seriously don't think that they are wrong. And they surely wouldn't lie.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

. . .
The official reports for the time of the Pentagon collapse state that it collapsed at 09:57.

Citation?

. . .
1) The WUSA9 photographer had a time stamp of 10:15.

Citation? Device applying timestamp was synchronized to what?

2) At least two continuous live news broadcasts put it at 10:15 (the program director confirmed the footage is $a recording of their live broadcast via email with me).

Citation? Device applying timestamp was synchronized to what?

3) The recording of Incident Command that I have from a scanner puts it at 10:15.

Citation? Device applying timestamp was synchronized to what? Image of scanner output? Evidence to corroborate authenticity?

This may seem innocuous but I know that the FD and Cencom have the ability to correlate all broadcasts to the exact time.

Provide said evidence

My immediate reaction is that you are confused as to what "it" refers to. You interpret "it" as referring to the collapse; I interpret "it" as referring to the evacuation. Let me re-write this a little:

"At 9:55, the incident commander ordered an evacuation of the Pentagon impact area because a partial collapse was imminent; the evacuation occurred at 9:57, and no first responder was injured"

This makes complete sense within the context, and shows no contradiction whatsoever with any of the "evidence" that you've offered about anything. Unless you have other transcripts that demonstrate that this person was explicitly referring to "the collapse" and not "the evacuation", I don't see how this has any merit whatsoever.

Individual being quoted should be asked, then it will not be a matter of interpretation.

 

[Moving On]

You might want to read, what the Pentagon report says

http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf



So, the collapse occurred at 9:57. Or the Arlington County after-action report is wrong or lying. I seriously doubt that they are wrong. And they surely wouldn't lie.

ref,

Yes they are wrong. I will presume to have spent a little more time on this than you including conversation and emails with Chief Schwartz.

I am also surprised - but there is no question they have been wrong for over 5 years.

Russell

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

ref,

Yes they are wrong. I will presume to have spent a little more time on this than you including conversation and emails with Chief Schwartz.

I am also surprised - but there is no question they have been wrong for over 5 years.

Russell

Your confirmation bias is showing again.

 

[ref]

ref,

Yes they are wrong. I will presume to have spent a little more time on this than you including conversation and emails with Chief Schwartz.

I am also surprised - but there is no question they have been wrong for over 5 years.

Russell

So you seriously think they are 20 minutes wrong, and nobody noticed?

 

[Magenta]

From page 553 paragraph #3439 of the 9/11 Commission Report:

195. For the establishment of incident command on September 11, see Arlington County, “After-Action Report,” appendix 1, p. 1-1; Schwartz and Combs,“Incident Command.” 196. Arlington County, “After-Action Report,” appendix 1, p. 1-1. Other sources put the time of the partial collapse as late as 10:14. See Edward P. Plaugher,“Fire & EMS,” July 28, 2003 (presented at conference in Arlington,Va.,“Local Response to Terrorism: Lessons Learned from the 9/11 Attack on the Pentagon”).

 

[ref]

You might want to take a look, how other timelines get the times wrong as well.

Take a look at this CNN timeline from 12 September, 2001.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/chronology.attack/

It puts the Pentagon collapse at 10:10.
It also put the south tower collapse at 10:05.

Both of them are wrong.

 

[Arus808]

so we have a bunch of "sources" putting hte collapse time between 9:55 and 10:15 am.

really, this is a non-issue. I currently have 20 odd machines in my home and all of them have different times on them

the two cable boxes are coordinated to the time sent through the cable/sattelite system
the microwave is set to 5 minutes faster than the cable boxes
the 2 vcrs are still blinking 12 am
the DVD player has a time that is 10 minuts slower than the microwave
my laptop is set to hawaii time, but 7 minutes fast
my desktop is set to 15 minutes fast.

the clock in my car has gained 10 minutes since I bought it in 2004, and I never touched the time.


So, what is the problem Russell? That there is a 20 min discrepency between the reports? That no one on this green earth, that they have the clocks set differently?

 

[Moving On]

From page 553 paragraph #3439 of the 9/11 Commission Report:
195. For the establishment of incident command on September 11, see Arlington County, “After-Action Report,” appendix 1, p. 1-1; Schwartz and Combs,“Incident Command.” 196. Arlington County, “After-Action Report,” appendix 1, p. 1-1. Other sources put the time of the partial collapse as late as 10:14. See Edward P. Plaugher,“Fire & EMS,” July 28, 2003 (presented at conference in Arlington,Va.,“Local Response to Terrorism: Lessons Learned from the 9/11 Attack on the Pentagon”).

Finally useful information.

The WUSA9 videographer said he contacted ACFD about the time discrepancy based on his time stamp.

I have exactly the same recording as they do and was able to figure out the 10:15 time in seconds. despite my not wanting to explain CenCom to Arkan they do have the time of all transmissions recorded.

18 minutes seems like a big discrepancy.

 

[leftysergeant]

Okay, Russel, I will for the moment, give you some credit for not jumping up and down and shrieking that the whole fabric of the official theory has unraveled before our eyes.

The theory that "it" is used to refer to the evacuation is the more reasonable explanation.

The collapse, from the videos I have seen, appears to start out ratrher slowly. This is consistant with the way that structures at least partially built of wooden elements collapse. The columns in the most severely-damaged part of the first floor were, if I read the documents and analyse the pics correctly, wood inside a concrete sheath in at lkeast some areas, while outhers appear to be represented as reinforced concrete, albeit of relatively light construction. Either would give way slowly at first in a fire. There may well have already been stuff falling loose from the building before the evacuation. Certainly, what appear to be rather massive sections of floor or ceiling are sen sagging at the front edge in most exterior shots of the building during fire fighting.

So, there is the possibilty that the collapse began at or about 0957 and ended at 1015.

Have I adequately muddied that answer?

 

[Wolfman]

Wolfman - listen to this at the 5:17 mark and you will see the structural collapse occurred then immediately after they initiated the fireground evacuation. They did say the fireground was evacuated at 10:15 in the same reports so this part is still correct.

Sorry, but that is clearly describing a completely different evacuation, quite probably of the emergency responders. The evacuation being referred to the first time is an evacuation called for (by any interpretation of the timeline) before the collapse took place; this is a separate order, issued after the collapse took place.

You level criticisms at others, yet your own "evaluation" of the subject at hand seems far from unbiased or logical. You use as "proof" one isolated statement, taken out of context, which as demonstrated by me could quite easily not refer to the collapse at all. You then use quotes from another source that, by any stretch of logic, cannot be referring to the same evacuation order. One order comes before the collapse (regardless of the time it happens at), and is obviously intended for the occupants of the building; the other comes after the collapse, and is presumably intended for rescue workers who are there.

I won't defend some of the other responses here, but that doesn't mean I support your own argument or tactics. You need first of all to demonstrate exactly what "it" was that was referred to in the first statement; without a clear statement of the intended meaning from the person who made the statement, any conclusions that can be drawn from it on any side of the argument are completely useless. Yet this is, so far as I can see, the entire crux and foundation of the entire argument you are making.