Steve
Penultimate Amazing
People who don't like the term "atheist" probably would not care for "heathen" or "infidel" either . If you want to keep "those" people happy call yourself a christian.
People who don't like the term "atheist" probably would not care for "heathen" or "infidel" either . If you want to keep "those" people happy call yourself a christian.
RobDegraves
Muse
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Gosh, that 12 rules thing was stupid.
1. Heathens?
Historically the term heathen is most often used for the followers of other religions, not for those without one.
2. This bit is really dumb.
That misses the point entirely. History is a science, not poetry or religion. You don't describe it by the movements of atoms any more than you would describe any complex human interaction in that way. That does not make it unscientific, quite the opposite. Science is more than just looking at atoms. Sheesh.
1. Heathens?
Historically the term heathen is most often used for the followers of other religions, not for those without one.
2. This bit is really dumb.
That misses the point entirely. History is a science, not poetry or religion. You don't describe it by the movements of atoms any more than you would describe any complex human interaction in that way. That does not make it unscientific, quite the opposite. Science is more than just looking at atoms. Sheesh.
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Why would that matter to me?
If I was an atheist I would use "Godless", because when the religious use that word they always make it seem like an attack, so it would work against them trying to appear friendly and justify a reaction of militant godlessness just that little bit more
Why would I be searching for militancy?
HansMustermann
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People who don't like the term "atheist" probably would not care for "heathen" or "infidel" either . If you want to keep "those" people happy call yourself a christian.
That too.
Plus, on the few occasions when someone did start a discussion about religion IRL (otherwise, I tend to go by "don't ask, don't tell"
) I didn't start with any term, I just went some form of, "sorry, I don't believe in any gods", and that was the part that seemed to disturb them the most. I'm under the impression that, for example, at least one Muslim would have been more OK with my following Jesus than with not following any gods at all. I don't really see any terms helping with that one, unless it mistakenly gets them to think I mean "heathen" as in following some other God.Heck, from (limited) experience, even saying I believe we're in a game and it's up to the Great Game Designer what happens next, seems to be enough. No idea if it's because of the "hey, we all believe in the same god, just by different names" catch some people have, or it just sounded crazy enough to not be worth debating. I should try with Snow White too and see what happens.
Beelzebuddy
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I've been using "godless heathen" to great effect for years. It very succinctly communicates my stance, that I am unlikely to seriously consider another, and that I don't have a stick up my ass about it.
Which is why I hope these folk don't catch on. I'd rather not have it imply association with a specific group that has issues to push.
Which is why I hope these folk don't catch on. I'd rather not have it imply association with a specific group that has issues to push.
SomedayGirl
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Godless sounds like you're pining for or lacking something. Try godfree.
If I'm joking I tell people I'm an apathetic agnostic - don't know, don't care. As a serious descriptor I prefer secular or nontheist.
Meh. I've never been overly impressed with these "Ten Commandments for Atheists" type things. It seems impossible for people to understand that we don't NEED commandments. We only need rationality.
Like most manifestos I've seen this is poorly thought-out and ignores the real world.
As for what I call myself, the thing to understand is that atheism is the antithesis of theism--and therefore will be equally diverse. Marx and Rand were both atheists, for example. Expecting atheists to act as if we belonged to some monolithic group akin to the Roman Catholic Church or the like is just as silly as expecting all theists to behave as if they were in the same group. As such, if this group of people wants to call themselves heathens and have these--you know, I'm really having trouble figuring out what to call them--sayings, maybe?--to guide them, I say let them have fun. If they start demanding that I follow them I'll do the same thing I do with overly-enthusiastic theist missionaries: show up to the conversation in a leather miniskirt and Bad Religion t-shirt. I usually don't need to do that one twice.
Doesn't matter.
Which is another way of saying "We only believe in what's real".
This is going to get sticky, because it necessarily means that anyone who disagrees is lying. Also, each and every religion believes that they ARE telling the truth. So it's antagonistic and without meaning.
This one got interesting here:
I call this "physics envy". This line basically says that if something isn't physics it's not science--and cannot be interpreted any other way, since history (well, archaeology and anthropology) are considered sciences outside of this article.
This attempts to define reason and logic as different things, and plays far too close to the whole numenal/phenominal thing for my comfort.
Than why copy the Ten Commandments, even in such an altered form?
All this is going to do is tell theists "We know we're going to Hell". Antagonistic and meaningless.
This one's okay.
Never been a fan of this, though it's more a failing in defining religion than anything else. Any religion that's compatible with a naturalistic worldview is irrelevant, however, and is merely a fancy way to dress up petty grievances.
"If the Devil would fight Hitler we'd give him the pitchforks", to horribly butcher a famous quote. That said, look at what happened after that war.
The fact that this needs to be called out is the interesting part. I mean, they don't call out accountants, lawyers, philosophers, scientists, architects, engineers, or anyone else; are we to assume that they're NOT critical of those professions when necessary? Of course not. This is wasted text at best, antagonistic at worst.
Two things. First, I've found that most groups that have manifestos include a disturbingly large proportion of people who think tin-foil hats are a really good idea. Second, any document describing your group necessarily differentiates your group from all others--that's the whole point. A group is formed for a reason. A nation is formed to protect a certain territory and enforce laws. A geology club is formed to help its members gain access to otherwise unavailable resources. A heathen group, in order to be anything at all, needs to be SOMETHING--a group that everyone is by default a member of isn't a group at all, and a group without direction doesn't go anywhere. And there are reasons to form an atheist group that aren't "I hate religion"--for example, a support group for people who think they're alone, or raising money to fight the numerous flagrantly unconstitutional laws in the nation favoring religion, or just so that the atheists have a place to sit around drinking beer. "Forging links between us and others" can only logically happen when there's a distinction between "us" and "others"--there's no need to forge a link between myself and my family because I'm a member of that group already.
Like most manifestos I've seen this is poorly thought-out and ignores the real world.
As for what I call myself, the thing to understand is that atheism is the antithesis of theism--and therefore will be equally diverse. Marx and Rand were both atheists, for example. Expecting atheists to act as if we belonged to some monolithic group akin to the Roman Catholic Church or the like is just as silly as expecting all theists to behave as if they were in the same group. As such, if this group of people wants to call themselves heathens and have these--you know, I'm really having trouble figuring out what to call them--sayings, maybe?--to guide them, I say let them have fun. If they start demanding that I follow them I'll do the same thing I do with overly-enthusiastic theist missionaries: show up to the conversation in a leather miniskirt and Bad Religion t-shirt. I usually don't need to do that one twice.
angrysoba
Philosophile
Godless sounds like you're pining for or lacking something. Try godfree.
If I'm joking I tell people I'm an apathetic agnostic - don't know, don't care. As a serious descriptor I prefer secular or nontheist.
Maybe in some cases, but using the ~less suffix does not always mean lacking or in want of.
For example, timeless, priceless, fearless, ageless are all words with positive connotations. I agree with the reasoning of Marduk. If someone says, "Oooh, you godless person you!" as if it were an insult you can quite happily say back, "Yes, I am godless. Thank you" without feeling inferior for saying it.
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Why isn't that also true for "atheist"?
Mind you, even your phrasing sounds defensive. I'd just say "yup".
Marduk
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personally my chosen label offers no problems
Most religious people have no idea what a pantheist is, so have no set rebuke to it and Dawkins stated that pantheism is "sexed up Atheism", so I'm covered from both directions
maybe it would be better to just make something up when asked, like "relativistic neophyte", then watch the lack of education paint your opponents response.
Most religious people have no idea what a pantheist is, so have no set rebuke to it and Dawkins stated that pantheism is "sexed up Atheism", so I'm covered from both directions
maybe it would be better to just make something up when asked, like "relativistic neophyte", then watch the lack of education paint your opponents response.
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angrysoba
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autumn1971
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angrysoba
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Andrew Wiggin
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Only one rule for heathens.