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12/13/03 The Date GWB Won His Second Term

His daddy orchestrated a successful war of liberation as well and failed to get re-elected.

I understand and feel the elation, but I wouldn't close the door yet.

Just my opinion.

The reasoning I think is this: yes, we got Saddam in our custody, but acheiving the goals of a task we set out to do should be expected and does not legitimize the task for those who were against it in the first place.

IE, the ends might not justify the means for many many voters.
 
Rik -

I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears, but there is still no evidence that the attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center were organized, supported, paid for, or even known about by Hussein. Number of Iraqis on those planes: 0. That's zero. Evidence for a bin Laden/Hussein consipiracy: also zero. If you have any evidence, please provide it.

Two: the United States was going to war with Iraq regardless of September 11th and regardless of whether or not Iraq complied with the U.N.'s demands and the U.S.'s demands. Let me quote from "Rebuilding America's Defenses," a report of the Project for a New American Century, to which Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz contributed:

"The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein." (p. 14)

Three: both the Pentagon and the Bush Administration stated that Saddam was essentially irrevelant. Here's a quote from Petagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke in April 2003: "What really matters is not whether or not he's dead or alive, but the fact that whoever is left in this regime, whatever is left of the regime leadership, got up today and realized they have less and less control of their country. They have less and less control of just about everything in that country, and that's what's significant. And what we're focused on is ending the regime."

So there is evidence from someone who feels that while the capture of Saddam Hussein is definitely a good thing, it is not the end of the troubles in Iraq, and it is certainly not a reason to vote for George W. Bush in 2004. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it.
 
rikzilla said:


Profit taking! It's the American way! ;) Honestly though, this news is so good it should help the market to continue to trend upwards...but hey, it was doing so for the last 6 months anyway.

-z

Yeah. Plus you got that Christmas panic in those brokers who have kids that want the G.I. Joe with the kung-fu grip... ;)
 
rikzilla said:

...and just like OBL and Saddam's successful 9/11 attack
Here I was all set to make a joke about how Saddam will never again attack the US using his secret weapons of mass distruction: Boeing Jets, when someone beat me to it.

Or, at least, I hope it is a joke and rik-ster doesn't honestly think that the mostly secular Saddam worked together with religious extremist Osama in planning the 9/11 attack, when by most accounts, they hate one another.
 
Tmy said:


I readthis article in the paper. They asked people what kind of question would tehy want to ask Saddam. Almost all of them were "Why did you attack us Saddam?".

I gotta give GW credit. Hes doen a pretty good job of linking 911 wh Saddam in the publics mind.

...and the left has ignored every shred of evidence that contradicts their dogma that: 1. "There is no link between OBL and Saddam." and 2. "There are no WMD's."

To do so you must ignore the fact that Al Qaida had training camps in Iraq. That Iraqi intelligence met with Mohammed Atta before 9/11...that Atta visited Baghdad to confer with Abu Nidal before 9/11....that Ramzi Yusef (first WTC bomber) travelled under a faked identity using real Kuwaiti government documents that were pilfered from Kuwait by Iraq during the occupation. That OBL's second in command had ties to Iraqi intelligence. That Iraqi mobile labs for manufacturing toxins were found....that a vial containing enough live botulinum toxin was found that could have been used to kill hundreds of thousands....that Iraqi missiles were found that violated the UN sanctions....that secret rooms were found beneath the Tulwaitha nuke plants which were used to secret documents and materials used in their nuke weapons programs. That political prisoners were used to test deadly chemical agents. That the Mukhabarat were running "terrorism schools".

Yes, you must ignore all this and much, much more in order to believe the leftist mantra:

"There is no link between Saddam and OBL."
"There are no WMD's"

Do not allow any information to contradict those two axioms. Just call anyone who doesn't "believe" a name: "neo-con, warmonger, idiot, victim of propaganda......"

Get real....this is a site for skeptics. Real skeptics are nobody's "useful idiots". Mantra spouting leftie true believers are not skeptics.

-z

Sic Semper Tyrannis
 
rikzilla said:
The headlines say: SADDAM CAPTURED!!

But shouldn't they really say: GWB WINS RE-ELECTION!! ??

:usa:

I think so. When he wins in November, it won't be the resurgant economy...it won't be the tax cuts....it'll be 12/13/03 Lucky 13.

-z

:D :D

Maybe he is right and the capture of Saddam will become known as the point when Bush won the 2004 election, but I think that it is still far too early to make that determination.

For example, if Saddam himself is unable to provide any data about Iraqi WMDs because he got rid of all of them prior to the war, then I expect that such data could serve to seriously undermine the justification of the war.
And if during his trial, he exposes all of the help he got from America over the years that helped keep him in power and kill Iranians, then I expect that will not make the Bush Administration very happy.
Also, if during his trial, Saddam were to state something to the effect that he was just doing his bit to protect the people of Iraq from the Americans who were out to destroy it and that all Iraqi patriots should do their bit to fight the Americans as well, then I doubt that the Bush Administration would be very happy with this sort of response.

While it is better to have Saddam in custody instead of at large, having him in custody does present its own problems as well. After all, having Noriega in custody did not serve to help his father's re-election campaign.
 
LFTKBS said:
Rik -

I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears, but there is still no evidence that the attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center were organized, supported, paid for, or even known about by Hussein. Number of Iraqis on those planes: 0. That's zero. Evidence for a bin Laden/Hussein consipiracy: also zero. If you have any evidence, please provide it.

Two: the United States was going to war with Iraq regardless of September 11th and regardless of whether or not Iraq complied with the U.N.'s demands and the U.S.'s demands. Let me quote from "Rebuilding America's Defenses," a report of the Project for a New American Century, to which Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz contributed:

"The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein." (p. 14)

Three: both the Pentagon and the Bush Administration stated that Saddam was essentially irrevelant. Here's a quote from Petagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke in April 2003: "What really matters is not whether or not he's dead or alive, but the fact that whoever is left in this regime, whatever is left of the regime leadership, got up today and realized they have less and less control of their country. They have less and less control of just about everything in that country, and that's what's significant. And what we're focused on is ending the regime."

So there is evidence from someone who feels that while the capture of Saddam Hussein is definitely a good thing, it is not the end of the troubles in Iraq, and it is certainly not a reason to vote for George W. Bush in 2004. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it.

BWAHAHAHAH! I must apply to JREF for the million...today ALL my predictions are coming stunningly true!

-z
 
Upchurch said:
Here I was all set to make a joke about how Saddam will never again attack the US using his secret weapons of mass distruction: Boeing Jets, when someone beat me to it.

Or, at least, I hope it is a joke and rik-ster doesn't honestly think that the mostly secular Saddam worked together with religious extremist Osama in planning the 9/11 attack, when by most accounts, they hate one another.

Yeah ...true dat!

Keep chanting that mantra boys.....perhaps you will acheive nervana? ;)
 
rikzilla said:
....that a vial containing enough live botulinum toxin was found that could have been used to kill hundreds of thousands....

Well, it appears that you aren't any sort of scientist, Rik. A vial of Botulinum B - which is what they found in a fridge - cannot kill hundreds of thousands. The dangerous one is Botulinum A, and you still need a hell of a lot more than a vial to produce a single weapon.

Also, where are your sources? Quotes? Anything? It appears that you are the one who isn't skeptical enough, and that you'll believe anything the Administration says.

You know, hundreds of dermatologists across the nation have access to Botulinum A; should we go bomb their homes?

Excepts from "STATEMENT BY DAVID KAY ON THE INTERIM PROGRESS REPORT ON THE ACTIVITIES OF THE IRAQ SURVEY GROUP (ISG) BEFORE THE HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS, SUBCOMMITTEE ON DEFENSE, AND THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE", October 2, 2003

"Information found to date suggests that Iraq's large-scale capability to develop, produce, and fill new CW munitions was reduced - if not entirely destroyed - during Operations Desert Storm and Desert Fox, 13 years of UN sanctions and UN inspections."

"Despite evidence of Saddam's continued ambition to acquire nuclear weapons, to date we have not uncovered evidence that Iraq undertook significant post-1998 steps to actually build nuclear weapons or produce fissile material. However, Iraq did take steps to preserve some technological capability from the pre-1991 nuclear weapons program."

So now that we've refuted that nicely, do you have sources for any of your other claims?
 
rikzilla said:
BWAHAHAHAH! I must apply to JREF for the million...today ALL my predictions are coming stunningly true!

What a well thought-out and well supported refutation, rik. My favorite part was where you didn't dispute the content of my post.

Are you planning to do so at any point?
 
LFTKBS said:


Well, it appears that you aren't any sort of scientist, Rik. A vial of Botulinum B - which is what they found in a fridge - cannot kill hundreds of thousands. The dangerous one is Botulinum A, and you still need a hell of a lot more than a vial to produce a single weapon.

Also, where are your sources? Quotes? Anything? It appears that you are the one who isn't skeptical enough, and that you'll believe anything the Administration says.

You know, hundreds of dermatologists across the nation have access to Botulinum A; should we go bomb their homes?

Excepts from "STATEMENT BY DAVID KAY ON THE INTERIM PROGRESS REPORT ON THE ACTIVITIES OF THE IRAQ SURVEY GROUP (ISG) BEFORE THE HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS, SUBCOMMITTEE ON DEFENSE, AND THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE", October 2, 2003

"Information found to date suggests that Iraq's large-scale capability to develop, produce, and fill new CW munitions was reduced - if not entirely destroyed - during Operations Desert Storm and Desert Fox, 13 years of UN sanctions and UN inspections."

"Despite evidence of Saddam's continued ambition to acquire nuclear weapons, to date we have not uncovered evidence that Iraq undertook significant post-1998 steps to actually build nuclear weapons or produce fissile material. However, Iraq did take steps to preserve some technological capability from the pre-1991 nuclear weapons program."

So now that we've refuted that nicely, do you have sources for any of your other claims?

Well, if you had the gumption to do a search through my many posts you would see that my information and sources are already posted on this board. Here's some of that:

#1. Saddam gave haven and support to the terrorist Abu Nidal and his organization (before he had him killed recently that is) in violation of 687, paragraph 32 which imposes the obligation under international law to report suspected acts of Iraqi support for international terrorism to the UN secretary general.which also addresses Iraq's support of terrorism.

#2. Abdul Rahman Yasin, the one terrorist not captured from the first WTC bombing is currently living free in Baghdad. The only named conspirator still at large. He was one of the "blind Sheik's" nutty Islamic fundie followers....so why did he run for Iraq...and why did Saddam harbor him in full disregard of UN Security Council Resolution 687? (paragraph 32 again)

#3. Abu Mussab al Zarqawi (al Qaida senior operative) is apparently free to operate in Baghdad as well. (pesky paragraph 32 again)
the link

#4. Ramzi Yusef aka Abdul Basit, the mastermind of WTC bombing #!. Was at the time suspected of being an active Iraqi intelligence agent. Also, when finally captured in the Phillipines, found to be also associated with Abu Sayyef (terrorist group known to be linked with al Qaida)

#5. Dr. Hamza's testimony that Iraq's Mukhabarat (political secret police) are running the concealment mechanism for their ongoing proscribed nuclear program. The link

#6. On August 8, 1995 Hussein Kamil (Saddam's son-in-law) defected to Jordan. He had supervised Iraqi unconventional weapons programs. His information confirmed that Iraq had developed and possesed weaponized biological agents.

#7. Egyptian officials arrested one of the first WTC bombers where he was hiding with family in Cairo. He is Abu Halima. He told them about the involvement of two Iraqi intelligence agents who had managed to flee.

#8. UNSCOM 227 inspection (from Ritter's book Endgame) uncovered Iraqi documents detailing biological and chemical agent testing done on humans. (political prisoners)...Endgame page 180.

#9. Calutrons (magnetic isotope seperators) of the kind used in the Manhattan project were found in the process of being moved around by the Iraqis way back in 1991. (another instance of deception, and active nuclear program)

#10. Mukhabarat terrorism "school" inadvertently found by UNSCOM 150 inspection team in 1996. (not part of UNSCOM mandated mission...not WMD's...just terror/torture etc...the issue of this find was not taken up by the UNSC) page 120 "Endgame.

Then there's this stuff


From the Wall Street Journal article linked to below:
Know Thy Enemy-The Iraq Connection
(October 18, 2001)

From: Laurie Mylroie
By R. James Woolsey
The Wall Street Journal

The professionally prepared and precisely sized anthrax spores that have infected some 30 congressional staffers and closed down the Capitol and the office of the governor of New York have made the point forcefully: When you are at war, the primary task should be to determine whom you are at war with.

In most wars this is not a problem. Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990 the way the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor--with flags flying. Even in our war two centuries ago with the Barbary Pirates, an enemy with some loose parallels to al Qaeda, we had no doubt which North African government sheltered them. Stephen Decatur knew whom to attack.

This time it‘s different. Although the administration‘s decision to move first against the obvious target--the Taliban and their demonic al Qaeda guests--is sound, there are rising doubts that even a victory in Afghanistan, and even the capture or death of Osama bin Laden and his cohorts, will solve the problem. And this is not only because of al Qaeda operatives and street demonstrations in other countries. Removing bin Laden and his associates may only amputate one hand of our enemy. There are substantial and growing indications that a state may, behind the scene, be involved in the attacks. This is hard for us to deal with because, as Sen. Dianne Feinstein said recently, "It‘s a very sobering thing for Americans, who tend to be upfront dealing with everything, to be faced with something so clandestine and unknown."

When an enemy has a face and a name, this country can be awesome in its ability to mobilize quickly for war and win, as we did in both world wars. But we are now facing an enemy from a part of the world where the major aspects of war, for many centuries, have been clandestine raids, assassinations, terror against civilians, and deception. In response to the challenge "Come out and fight like a man," we will get only smirks in the shadows and more anthrax, or worse.

Some hold the view that no degree of sophistication--precisely prepared anthrax, coordination across continents, sophisticated training, professionally-stolen identities--is enough to indicate the strong probability of a state‘s being involved. Such a position was most succinctly stated by an unnamed FBI official to Seymour Hersh (in the Oct. 8 New Yorker), speaking of the Sept. 11 attackers: "These guys look like a pickup basketball team. In your wildest dreams, do you think they thought they‘d be able to pull off four hijackings?" But for those of a more suspicious cast of mind, the degree of complexity and the sophistication of the attacks against us suggest that we have enough indications of possible state involvement for the government to be carefully and vigorously investigating.

One central issue is state involvement in what? If we define the problem in such a way as to require proof (and make it proof beyond a reasonable doubt) of state involvement in the Sept. 11 attack itself, we will quite likely define ourselves out of being able to understand who is at war with us. Instead, we need to look at the pattern of terrorism against us over the last decade and reach a considered judgment in light of the whole picture, even if we cannot prove, to the demanding standards of criminal law, a state‘s involvement in the Sept. 11 atrocity itself.

The weakest argument against the possibility of state involvement is usually implicit--that since al Qaeda is clearly involved in the Sept. 11 and other attacks, a state probably is not. But haven‘t such people heard of joint ventures? Do they think that international law imposes some sort of sole-source contracting requirement for terrorism? But which state? Well, whichever one turns up when you start looking. Iran, for example, has to be considered a possibility because--in spite of a rational president, a number of elected reformers, brave newspaper editors, and an electorate that solidly supports reform--murderous mullahs still run the country‘s intelligence services and instruments of state power. Iran sponsors Hezbollah and other terrorist groups that are targeted principally against Israel today but that have attacked us in the past, including quite possibly at Khobar Towers. Iranian involvement with al Qaeda, even across the bitter divide between extreme Wahhabi Sunnis and extreme Shiites, is not impossible.

But by far the more likely candidate for involvement with al Qaeda is Iraq, for several reasons.

Saddam has gone to great lengths to court Sunni Islamists in recent years, even restructuring the Iraqi flag to put Allahu Akbar ("God is great") in his own handwriting across its face. (Even Saddam‘s soulmate and fellow hater of religion, Joseph Stalin, didn‘t think of courting the Russian Orthodox Church when he needed it after Hitler‘s invasion by writing across the face of the Soviet flag in his own hand, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.") This courtship has included terrorist meetings in Iraq and, according to press reports, at least one visit to the Taliban capital of Kandahar by the infamous Faruk Hijazi, a senior official in Iraqi intelligence although nominally the Iraqi ambassador in Ankara, Turkey.

Saddam has a festering sense of revenge for his humiliation of the Gulf War, and our conduct at, and after, the war‘s end has given him added hope, he believes, for vengeance. In the aftermath of the war, the Iraqi resistance controlled much of the country, but we watched from the skies while Saddam mobilized the Republican Guard that we had spared and used it to massacre the rebels. He is not grateful to us. He has concluded that we are weak and irresolute, and that we do not dare to confront him even when we are in a position as strong as we were in the spring of 1991. If he has confidence that he has successfully hidden his hand in attacking us, he doubtless has even more confidence in our fecklessness.

His confidence in our fecklessness has some reasonable basis. If the first Bush administration made one major mistake in not helping the Iraqi resistance, in the spring of 1991, to finish the job that we had started, the Clinton administration made eight years of them. In the spring of 1993, Iraqi Intelligence (i.e., Saddam) tried to assassinate former President Bush in Kuwait, as confirmed by both CIA and FBI investigations of an unexploded bomb. President Clinton responded by shooting some cruise missiles into an empty intelligence headquarters in the middle of the night. The message--we will ruthlessly use high technology weapons against cleaning women, night watchmen and masonry--may not have struck as much fear into Saddam‘s heart as the administration hoped.

There then began eight years of using law enforcement as the principal investigative tool and principal sanction against what came to be called "loose networks" of terrorists. For two reasons, neither one the fault of those who were doing their best to enforce the law, this had the effect of making it very difficult to establish any links between terrorists and foreign governments (although the FBI reportedly found ties between Iran and the Khobar Towers terrorists).

First, a prosecutor‘s team is not the right institution to use to look for an overall assessment of whether there is state sponsorship of a terrorist act. Indeed, the better the prosecutors are, the more likely they are to focus like a laser on proving that the people they can get their hands on have committed the elements of the crime set out by the law--not on a general search for background information useful to the rest of the government. A criminal trial is not a general search for truth but rather, in a sense, a legally circumscribed trial by combat. It makes as much sense to expect a prosecutor‘s team to make an overall assessment of state sponsorship of a terrorist event as it does to ask a Marine company commander, in the midst of taking a hill, to advise you about the international alliances of the enemy whose troops he is facing.

Second, Rule 6(e) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure (perhaps now being modified by Congress) severely restricts the flow of information to the rest of the government from investigations when information is obtained pursuant to a federal grand jury‘s subpoena. A federal judge might approve some sharing with, say, a state prosecutor, but there is no provision that permits sharing with, e.g., the National Security Council or the CIA. Any such sharing must await the trial, creating a delay of months to years after the terrorist event.

As a result, during the many months of investigation and the trials of the defendants for the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993, little was done to discover the implications of the fact that one of the indicted plotters, Abdul Rahman Yasin (who held Iraqi and American citizenship) fled to Baghdad after talking the FBI in New Jersey into releasing him. There are indications that both he and Ramzi Yousef, now in prison in Colorado, may be Iraqi agents, but on some important aspects the trail is very cold. Other investigations of terrorist incidents in the 1990s were similarly less than thorough on the question of state sponsorship. One can take the view that this was an unfortunate side effect of an otherwise desirable law enforcement focus.

The other, less generous possibility is that the Clinton administration was engaged here in its trademark behavior of focusing first and foremost on spin, expectation-adjustment, and short-term public relations, and deriving policy therefrom. If you assume that all terrorism flows from loose networks and not state action, then you will usually be able to find at least someone who was involved in a terrorist attack to convict. You can then claim success, get some good press and avoid confronting a state. The alternative approach--a thorough search for any state actor--presents two PR risks, neither attractive. If you find no state actor, there might be the appearance of an investigative failure. If, on the other hand, you find that a state was involved, you might then risk confrontation, even conflict, and possibly body bags on the evening news.

This may help account for the spate of recent stories in the press that seem to suggest that Iraqi government ties to terrorism are not being checked out, and that reports of such ties surprise senior government officials. It has been widely reported that the hijacker (some say the lead hijacker) Mohamed Atta met with Iraqi intelligence in Prague just before he came to the U.S. One report suggests that he met with senior Iraqi intelligence official Hijazi. And, as noted, another report puts Hijazi in the Taliban capital in 1998. Such reports are invariably followed by background statements from senior government officials to the effect that, "We don‘t know what they talked about so it doesn‘t prove anything."

Then on Oct. 1, William Safire wrote in the New York Times that al Qaeda‘s Abu Abdul Rahman, "financed by bin Laden and armed by Saddam," ambushed and killed 36 Kurds in Halabja in Northern Iraq. The Kurds retaliated, took 19 terrorists prisoner, and got valuable information from them about the terrorist-Iraqi connection. "Our top NSC officials," Mr. Safire wryly notes, "were unaware of this engagement until they read it in The Times."


Then on Oct. 12, Jim Hoagland wrote in the Washington Post that an Iraqi ex-intelligence officer has told the Iraqi National Congress of specific sightings of Islamic extremists training for hijacking a Boeing 707 in a suburb of Baghdad, Salman Pak, a year ago, but that he "was treated dismissively by CIA officers in Ankara this week. They reportedly showed no interest in pursuing a possible Iraq connection to Sept. 11." (I checked yesterday and essentially the same situation still obtains.)

What is going on here? Government bureaucracies do have a way of getting into comfortable ruts and staying there through inertia. In the present circumstances, we need to be especially sure that if any of our government agencies became infected during the 1990s with the Clinton administration malady of backward reasoning (start with the conclusion you want, then select the facts you‘ll look at), they are given the required curative as soon as possible.

The State Department, for example, negotiates with, and normally tries to make common cause with, foreign governments. And like any normal group of people, it seeks a role in the bigger picture for what it does. So it tends to push for the importance of coalition-building and cordial relations in the big scheme of things. No doubt we will have more and happier coalition partners (at least in the short run) if we don‘t raise the uncomfortable issue of a possible need to confront Saddam. But is a large coalition that doesn‘t move against a state that is at war with us better for the nation as a whole than a small coalition that moves effectively against a state that is attacking us? Isn‘t the first job learning the truth and not accommodating the views of our least staunch friends?

For its part, the CIA has always had an institutional bias in favor of information coming from recruited agents rather than volunteers and defectors. There are exceptions, but in a number of circumstances--some with which I have long personal familiarity--defectors especially have been dealt with in less than exemplary fashion by the Agency. Something similar might be said for democratic resistance groups--their occasional fractiousness makes them hard to discipline. Sometime during 1995, these tendencies seem to have joined to produce substantial hostility at Langley to the Iraqi National Congress. As one wag puts it, "If the INC showed up out there with Osama‘s and Saddam‘s heads on a plate, a number of people would say, ‘I‘ll bet that‘s the Pope and the Dalai Lama.‘ " As in the case of the State Department, it would be a tragedy of the first order if bureaucratic inertia of this sort had any hand in keeping us from learning whom we are at war with.

One must have sympathy for the president as he tries to sort all of this out. The decision whether to move against Iraq after Afghanistan will be one of the most difficult and important decisions any American president has ever made. It is much harder than deciding, even in very difficult circumstances, whether to confront a clear enemy when there is no alternative--as after the Confederacy‘s firing on Fort Sumter, or after Pearl Harbor.

The best analogy may be--although our condition is far from this desperate--the choice faced by Churchill at the time of Dunkirk in May 1940, when Britain stood alone and Lord Halifax was pressing for accommodation, via Mussolini, with Germany. Churchill‘s decision to reject Halifax‘s advice and fight was, in many ways, the hinge of the 20th century. Early in this new century, President Bush already faces one of its most momentous choices. He needs the best information any of us can give him.

Mr. Woolsey, former director of Central Intelligence, is a lawyer in Washington.

If you find all that easy to refute then say so, because I have more. If you are intrepid enough you can do a search of my posts and find it for yourself.

-z

Sic Semper Tyrannis
 
LFTKBS said:


What a well thought-out and well supported refutation, rik. My favorite part was where you didn't dispute the content of my post.

Are you planning to do so at any point?

You demand proof of something that has been disputed for months, then complain that I don't do it "RIGHT NOW!!"

Well, I've given you something to chew on....start chewing...if you don't address and refute all those points within the next 5 minutes I win. (by your own rules that is)

-z

edited to add: You will notice my long post left out any mention of the botulinum toxin. The truth is that you and those like you tend to look past the huge pile of evidence, find something you can refute...refute it, and then claim that that means the whole pile of evidence is suspect. This is the tactic most favored by Holocaust Deniers worldwide.
 
Well, you had time to BWAHAHAHAHA or whatever; I assumed you weren't interested in the facts. In addition, it'd be a bit insane to go through every post of yours chronologically and refute them in a separate thread.

Thank you for replying with sources. Now we can discover the truth together. Hand in hand.

First: re: "edited to add: You will notice my long post left out any mention of the botulinum toxin. The truth is that you and those like you tend to look past the huge pile of evidence, find something you can refute...refute it, and then claim that that means the whole pile of evidence is suspect. This is the tactic most favored by Holocaust Deniers worldwide."

No, what I'm saying is that it means we can't take everything you say at face value. The botulinum part jumped out at me because I knew for a fact that it wasn't the right kind and that there wasn't enough of it. You were wrong about the botulinum, so let's see if you were right about the other stuff.
 
LFTKBS said:

Thank you for replying with sources. Now we can discover the truth together. Hand in hand.

Sorry, I don't swing that way. ("not that there's anything wrong with it!")


No, what I'm saying is that it means we can't take everything you say at face value. The botulinum part jumped out at me because I knew for a fact that it wasn't the right kind and that there wasn't enough of it. You were wrong about the botulinum, so let's see if you were right about the other stuff.

No,...you won't take ANYTHING I say at face value....but that's okay. I encourage you to read up on Saddam. You would have to read blindfolded though if you want to complete your reading without messing up the leftie mantra though.

So go get your liberal blinders and repeat after me:

"There is no link betwn OBL and Saddam"
"There are no WMD's"

Please ignore ALL "other" evidence such as Saddam's terrorism schools....his testing of WMD chemicals on political prisoners.... and remember to repeat that the war was either all about WMD's or oil.

-z
 
Hey Mr. Bucket o' popcorn;


When it rains it pours eh?

From the link:



Terrorist behind September 11 strike was trained by Saddam
By Con Coughlin
(Filed: 14/12/2003)


Iraq's coalition government claims that it has uncovered documentary proof that Mohammed Atta, the al-Qaeda mastermind of the September 11 attacks against the US, was trained in Baghdad by Abu Nidal, the notorious Palestinian terrorist.


 
Nobody knows how reelections will turn out so far in advance, but at least the emerging conspiracy theory that Saddam was captured long ago and is held "in reserve" to bolster GWB's reelection bid by claiming he was captured two weeks before the coming elections didn't turn out as expected...
 
Iraq's coalition government claims that it has uncovered documentary proof that Mohammed Atta, the al-Qaeda mastermind of the September 11 attacks against the US, was trained in Baghdad by Abu Nidal, the notorious Palestinian terrorist.

This was discussed in another thread. Needless to say we're all skeptical. Let's just say this isn't very good "evidence."

From the link:

Although Iraqi officials refused to disclose how and where they had obtained the document

Gem
 
Two landmark dates that assured conservative victories were:


- Oct. 30, 2002: Senator Paul Wellstone's "Memorial" (not the plane crash itself, but how his life was remembered)
- Dec. 9, 2003: Gore endorses Dean


I don't call Saddam too significant, because it was never in any doubt that he would be captured or killed. As the sun rises and sets, it was bound to happen. Same with OBL.

The other dates I mention are the result of Free Will chosen in anger, selfishness, and sheer stupidity of the left.
 
And why exactly should George personally get the credit for finding him and not the dogfaces digging in the dirt?
Does he get the credit for everything and the blame for nothing?
Pretty good gig.
 
American said:
- Oct. 30, 2002: Senator Paul Wellstone's "Memorial" (not the plane crash itself, but how his life was remembered)

Yes, this was quite stupid and tasteless, and may very well have cost that particular election, but do you really think it will have any effect on the Presidential election? Or did you just randomly think of two otherwise unrelated incidents that may (have) hurt Democratic candidates?
 

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