10 story hole in WTC 7

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http://www.pumpitout.com/audio/danny_jowenko_022207.mp3

Since you have no use for my opinion, try that of an expert who's had ample time to change his mind.

Of course Jowenko claims the WTC1 and 2 WEREN'T demolished by CD, or didn't you know. Do you believe him about that?

Oh, and I wonder how many of his colleagues agree with him. Frankly, you could have 10 experts claiming the same thing and still they would be in the tiny minority, but I don't want to move the goalposts.

Yea, Jowenko thinks WTC7 was CD (but not 1 or 2). You've proved your point let's all go home.
 
Of course Jowenko claims the WTC1 and 2 WEREN'T demolished by CD, or didn't you know. Do you believe him about that?

Oh, and I wonder how many of his colleagues agree with him. Frankly, you could have 10 experts claiming the same thing and still they would be in the tiny minority, but I don't want to move the goalposts.

Yea, Jowenko thinks WTC7 was CD (but not 1 or 2). You've proved your point let's all go home.

You amply prove my point that no matter how much we comply with your request for expert opinion, you'll simply raise the bar to make sure we don't satisfy your demands.

MM
 
That's why CTs always have an advantage. They can post long debunked claims over and over and over again, and when we finally get tired of debating this way and get a little cranky about it, they can claim we can't answer them and are relying on insults.
No one can 'debunk' the facts in the FEMA report about the location of the east generator room and the supply pipe that fed those generators.

There were NO fuel fed fires in the east part of WTC 7.

There was NO fire in the east generator room.

There is NO evidence that the fuel supply pipe, 90 feet inside the building, was severed.
 
No one can 'debunk' the facts in the FEMA report about the location of the east generator room and the supply pipe that fed those generators.

There were NO fuel fed fires in the east part of WTC 7.

There was NO fire in the east generator room.

There is NO evidence that the fuel supply pipe, 90 feet inside the building, was severed.

Nice job Christopher7.

Apparently, based on zero rebuttal, you've satisfied the JREF skeptics and they now agree that the WTC7 collapse could not have a occured as a result of fire and debris damage.

Profession Demolitionist, Danny Jowenko's continues to agree with you as well, in spite of the many opportunities he's had to retract his expert opinion that WTC7 was a controlled demolition and absolutely could not have collapsed due to the fire conditions that existed.

MM
 
You amply prove my point that no matter how much we comply with your request for expert opinion, you'll simply raise the bar to make sure we don't satisfy your demands.

No, my point is that in a war of attrition of experts agreeing with each of our opinions, I will win hands down. Simple fact, and one that must frustrate your ideologically addled brain to no end.

I never asked you to find a single expert and then you'd be vindicated. The world of experts are against you, and until that changes you'll get nowhere.

Also, you didn't answer my question: DO YOU BELIEVE HE IS RIGHT ABOUT THE WTC1 and 2?
 
No, my point is that in a war of attrition of experts agreeing with each of our opinions, I will win hands down. Simple fact, and one that must frustrate your ideologically addled brain to no end.

I never asked you to find a single expert and then you'd be vindicated. The world of experts are against you, and until that changes you'll get nowhere.

Also, you didn't answer my question: DO YOU BELIEVE HE IS RIGHT ABOUT THE WTC1 and 2?


So basically you believe in quantity vs quality.

To answer your question about Jowenko's view on WTC1 & 2, I disagree with his accepting the official explanation for the cause of their collapse.

I'm not convinced that he is convinced, but , since he's not on record expressing a dissenting opinion, and since he acknowledges when referring to his American counterparts that they don't dissent because it would be bad for business, it's understandable that he would apply the same understanding to his own statements. He was 'trapped' into making his WTC7 statement and has enough integrity to not try and back away from a stated belief, especially one that he feels is easy to defend.

There were many events in the 9/11 scenario that day and many unanswered questions remain. Just because Jowenko had different views about different buildings doesn't mean that his statements are rendered invalid.

MM
 
http://www.pumpitout.com/audio/danny_jowenko_022207.mp3

Since you have no use for my opinion, try that of an expert who's had ample time to change his mind.

MM

The link doesn't work. What a pleasant surprise.

Do have any evidence or argument ? Or are you just going to dodge ?

Yea, Jowenko thinks WTC7 was CD (but not 1 or 2). You've proved your point let's all go home.

You amply prove my point that no matter how much we comply with your request for expert opinion, you'll simply raise the bar to make sure we don't satisfy your demands.

No one ever asked for an opinion. I've consistently asked for EVIDENCE, and nothing less.

Apparently, based on zero rebuttal, you've satisfied the JREF skeptics and they now agree that the WTC7 collapse could not have a occured as a result of fire and debris damage.

I'm no architect, firefighter or structural engineer, nor am I a demolitions expert, but someone's going to have to explain to me why a building would need to be completely on fire in order to collapse.

So basically you believe in quantity vs quality.

How exactly do you judge an expert's quality, mister skeptics-don't-post-their-real-names ?

it's understandable that he would apply the same understanding to his own statements. He was 'trapped' into making his WTC7 statement and has enough integrity to not try and back away from a stated belief, especially one that he feels is easy to defend.

That sounds remarkably like speculation. Care to prove me wrong ?

There were many events in the 9/11 scenario that day and many unanswered questions remain. Just because Jowenko had different views about different buildings doesn't mean that his statements are rendered invalid.

Convenient use of double-standards.
 
The link doesn't work. What a pleasant surprise.

Do have any evidence or argument ? Or are you just going to dodge ?

No one ever asked for an opinion. I've consistently asked for EVIDENCE, and nothing less.

I'm no architect, firefighter or structural engineer, nor am I a demolitions expert, but someone's going to have to explain to me why a building would need to be completely on fire in order to collapse.

How exactly do you judge an expert's quality, mister skeptics-don't-post-their-real-names ?

That sounds remarkably like speculation. Care to prove me wrong ?

Convenient use of double-standards.
You are willing to argue this point ad nasium but you won't dispute or even acknowledge the facts listed in post # 1048
OT'ers refuse to acknowledge facts that they cannot dispute.
Instead, they talk about anything other than that which bursts their bubble.

Can you dispute anything in post # 1048?

If not, by your acquiescence, you accept those facts as true.
 
Nice job Christopher7.

Apparently, based on zero rebuttal, you've satisfied the JREF skeptics and they now agree that the WTC7 collapse could not have a occured as a result of fire and debris damage.

Profession Demolitionist, Danny Jowenko's continues to agree with you as well, in spite of the many opportunities he's had to retract his expert opinion that WTC7 was a controlled demolition and absolutely could not have collapsed due to the fire conditions that existed.

MM

I think most now group you and Chris7 as a pair of concrete core type guys. You and Chris have no facts, no idea how the real world works and zero capabilities to read and comprehend. Logic and knowledge are not yours or Chris's strong suits.

Chris continues to tilt at the hole as he takes the many descriptions of this elephant and makes the logical errors we were all warned about in first grade. Seems you are blind enough to be a truther and follow others blindly into the knowledge vacuum of 9/11 truth; or should I say lies.

It is possible no one cares what you and Chris have to say any more? Yes.
 
Yup!

I think most now group you and Chris7 as a pair of concrete core type guys. You and Chris have no facts, no idea how the real world works and zero capabilities to read and comprehend. Logic and knowledge are not yours or Chris's strong suits.

Chris continues to tilt at the hole as he takes the many descriptions of this elephant and makes the logical errors we were all warned about in first grade. Seems you are blind enough to be a truther and follow others blindly into the knowledge vacuum of 9/11 truth; or should I say lies.

It is possible no one cares what you and Chris have to say any more? Yes.

One of the big reasons I stayed out of this thread! Until now, that is...
 
I think most now group you and Chris7 as a pair of concrete core type guys. You and Chris have no facts, no idea how the real world works and zero capabilities to read and comprehend. Logic and knowledge are not yours or Chris's strong suits.
[bolding mine]

Wrong.

I listed a number of facts contained in the FEMA and NIST reports.

All the fuel oil tanks were in the west end of WTC 7 except for 1 tank in the center between floors 2 and 3.

There are a lot more facts listed in post #1048.

You can deny that these facts are indisputable if that makes you feel better.
 
There were many events in the 9/11 scenario that day and many unanswered questions remain. Just because Jowenko had different views about different buildings doesn't mean that his statements are rendered invalid.

I could say the same to you concerning WTC7; Just because Jowenko had different views about different buildings doesn't mean that his statements are rendered valid.
 
I think most now group you and Chris7 as a pair of concrete core type guys. You and Chris have no facts, no idea how the real world works and zero capabilities to read and comprehend. Logic and knowledge are not yours or Chris's strong suits.

Chris continues to tilt at the hole as he takes the many descriptions of this elephant and makes the logical errors we were all warned about in first grade. Seems you are blind enough to be a truther and follow others blindly into the knowledge vacuum of 9/11 truth; or should I say lies.

It is possible no one cares what you and Chris have to say any more? Yes.

Sure go ahead beachnut.

The fact that I don't currently have an opinion about concrete in the core is of no consequence..you will think what you wish anyway.

I'm sure in real life you are a decent guy beachnut. I can assure you I'm a decent person as well. I'm not playing this like it's a game. I don't expect you JREFers to budge an inch. I say what I believe and if you folks want to crap all over me so be it. I hope it was worth the brownie points.

MM
 
Sure go ahead beachnut.

The fact that I don't currently have an opinion about concrete in the core is of no consequence..you will think what you wish anyway.

I'm sure in real life you are a decent guy beachnut. I can assure you I'm a decent person as well. I'm not playing this like it's a game. I don't expect you JREFers to budge an inch. I say what I believe and if you folks want to crap all over me so be it. I hope it was worth the brownie points.

MM

Then why do you not have the nerve to say what you really believe?

You believe that your fellow countrymen planned, executed and covered up mass murder of 3000 of their own.

Come on you decent guys say it, put your beliefs to this one dimensional text, be the first CTER to have the nerve to say what you really believe.

People crap all over you pal because they are offended and appalled by your beliefs, they are annoyed that guys like you who think this is all one big game and crap all over this event.

You have and will continue to accuse people of this most heinous crime and you do so from the safety and security of you own house. You then have the nerve to accuse those who will not join you of being narrow minded, fixed in their ways.

NO MM, people are not fixed, people are not narrow minded, they are sick and tired of individuals like you, with their over blown sense of importance pretending you have seen something everybody else missed.

Now do it MM, say what you really believe, have the courage that you foolish pretend those who oppose you do not have. Say what you really think.

I will say it for you ¨I,MM accuse Americans of committed mass murder of 3000 of their own¨

Now simply nod your CT head in agreement.
 
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You are willing to argue this point ad nasium but you won't dispute or even acknowledge the facts listed in post # 1048
OT'ers refuse to acknowledge facts that they cannot dispute.

So that's how you "think" ? If YOU can't debunk it, then it's false ?

And what's nasium ?

Instead, they talk about anything other than that which bursts their bubble.

Reality cannot be burst.

Can you dispute anything in post # 1048?

I'd like to see the final report, first.

If not, by your acquiescence, you accept those facts as true.

Non sequitur.
 
I can assure you I'm a decent person as well.

Everybody says that.

I'm not playing this like it's a game. I don't expect you JREFers to budge an inch.

Then why are you here ? To hear yourself talk ?

I say what I believe and if you folks want to crap all over me so be it. I hope it was worth the brownie points.

"Brownie points" ? Are you still trying to explain away why people disagree with your "obvious" conclusions by accusing them of beign dishonest ? Really ? Don't you see any other possibilities ? I do.
 
Then why do you not have the nerve to say what you really believe?

You believe that your fellow countrymen planned, executed and covered up mass murder of 3000 of their own.

Come on you decent guys say it, put your beliefs to this one dimensional text, be the first CTER to have the nerve to say what you really believe.

People crap all over you pal because they are offended and appalled by your beliefs, they are annoyed that guys like you who think this is all one big game and crap all over this event.

You have and will continue to accuse people of this most heinous crime and you do so from the safety and security of you own house. You then have the nerve to accuse those who will not join you of being narrow minded, fixed in their ways.

NO MM, people are not fixed, people are not narrow minded, they are sick and tired of individuals like you, with their over blown sense of importance pretending you have seen something everybody else missed.

Now do it MM, say what you really believe, have the courage that you foolish pretend those who oppose you do not have. Say what you really think.

I will say it for you ¨I,MM accuse Americans of committed mass murder of 3000 of their own¨

Now simply nod your CT head in agreement.


I try and say what is worth saying. Emotional tirades only lead to even greater emotional responses..as you enjoy proving.

I prefer to consider myself a citizen of the world first. For too long we've thought in terms of borders and the time is rapidly approaching when those borders will become meaningless.

People crap on other people because they can do it without revealing their true identity. You enjoy hiding behind stateofgrace but if you had to use your real name and provide full contact information, I believe you would be far more tactful in your responses, and of course, so would I.

Heinous? No one ever says heinous any more (I don't remember ever hearing that outside of the odd novel).

And what makes you believe that Americans are and less likely than any other people to murder their own, especially if they believe the end justifies the means?

Americans had no difficulty killing each other in the American Revolution and the Civil War. American leaders had no problem using the Draft to send 50,000 young men to their deaths in Vietnam. They are doing a similar thing in Iraq.

I believe 9/11 was motivated by a political belief that it would provide the necessary public support for the ruling power structure to obtain the congressional and public backing they needed to pursue a course that they felt was critical to the future of the U.S.A.

My belief is that those who feel they are much wiser than ourselves see a grim future. We live on a planet that is rapidly approaching unsustainable overpopulation. We face dwindling oil reserves while oil consumption continues to rise. We are oil dependent and do not have any quick or affordable replacement. The U.S. is the world's No.1 military power. It's in a unique position in history and I'm sure those controlling those reins don't want to see them dropped. By securing the last remaining major oil reserves, the military's demand for oil is slaked and the economic engine of the U.S. is temporarily protected. It won't last but it will buy time..more time than the other major power threats (China, India, Japan, Russia etc.) will have.

Whether you believe that or not, the response to 9/11 provided the current administration with the mandate they desired and allowed them to seize control of the country with the oil assets they felt were critically needed.

Some might argue that it was a failure because of the current mess in Iraq but I could argue that 'mess' is part of the desired plan. A stable Iraq makes it difficult for the U.S. to 'stay'. An unstable Iraq justifies American long term continued involvement in maintaining some stability and defacto control over oil asset management.

MM
 
I try and say what is worth saying. Emotional tirades only lead to even greater emotional responses..as you enjoy proving.
To date you have said nothing backed by facts or reality, other than your own believes and your own worldviews. They are completely lacking in substance and completely lacking in evidence.
I prefer to consider myself a citizen of the world first. For too long we've thought in terms of borders and the time is rapidly approaching when those borders will become meaningless.

A citizen of the world eh? Therefore by implication because I refuse to belief your insane theories whereby your fellow Americans murdered 3000 of their own I am not a citizen of the world. I really don’t care what is happening in the world, I am not concerned about global warming, global terrorism, world poverty or the AIDs crisis. I am not concerned about the disaster that is happening in the Middle East. Is this how you view those who refuse to subscribe to your insane conspiracies? Believe me, there are far more real and relevant problems in this world to concern oneself with that complete BS as promoted by the likes of you.
People crap on other people because they can do it without revealing their true identity. You enjoy hiding behind stateofgrace but if you had to use your real name and provide full contact information, I believe you would be far more tactful in your responses, and of course, so would I.
No I crap on your ideas because they are completely wrong, they are completely misguided and they are lies. You are quite welcome to PM me your personnel details and I will gladly reply with mine. I will gladly arrange to meet you in person if you so desire. I am not ashamed of who I am or what I believe in. I would say to your face, in person, exactly what I have said to you on this forum. I would say quite clearly, you are accusing your fellow Americans of mass murder,you do this with no evidence.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Heinous? No one ever says heinous any more (I don't remember ever hearing that outside of the odd novel).

[/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]Oh well excuse me, allow me to change it : hideous, evil, dreadful, callous, awful etc, please take your pick.
And what makes you believe that Americans are and less likely than any other people to murder their own, especially if they believe the end justifies the means?
Why would I question whether Americans would knowing plant explosives inside the towers, plant explosives inside WTC 7, purposefully allow their fellow country men to die? Well maybe I just believe in humanity a little bit. Maybe I just believe the very notion of anybody, let alone US citezens, committing just a dreadful, terrible, evil, callous, hideous act is actually quite ludicrous. But then again who I? Just somebody who happens to believe that human life is scared, and a decision of such magnitude would never be taken. That the US administration, despite how much you may dislike them, would ever commit themselves to such a terrible act. That they would ever knowingly plan, execute and cover up such a dreadful act of mass murder. That maybe, just maybe somebody somewhere would say ¨NO way am I going to allow this to happen¨.
It’s called humanity pal, there is a little bit in everybody, I’m sure if you looked hard enough you could find a little bit inside yourself.
Americans had no difficulty killing each other in the American Revolution and the Civil War. American leaders had no problem using the Draft to send 50,000 young men to their deaths in Vietnam. They are doing a similar thing in Iraq.
Vietnam as nothing to do with 911. Iraq has nothing to do with 911.
Iraq was invaded because of WMD; please do not try to mix up these events. Bush used 911 as political muscle to get into Iraq. End of story.
I believe 9/11 was motivated by a political belief that it would provide the necessary public support for the ruling power structure to obtain the congressional and public backing they needed to pursue a course that they felt was critical to the future of the U.S.A.
I don’t care what you believe. A Government so evil they would murder 3000 of their own would not give a dam about public opinion, they would not care what the public thought.
Your beliefs are one whereby each and every event is inter related and they all inter connect. The reality is, as I have pointed out, that Iraq had nothing to do with 911, if it was then why did the Evil US Government not just simply blame Iraq. It would have been simple. Iraqi pilots all funded by Saddam. Simple, invade Iraq. Yet they picked Saudi hijackers, they choose to blame UBL in Afghanistan, so how does this one work?
[COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]My belief is that those who feel they are much wiser than ourselves see a grim future. We live on a planet that is rapidly approaching unsustainable overpopulation. We face dwindling oil reserves while oil consumption continues to rise. We are oil dependent and do not have any quick or affordable replacement.
This I sort of agree with, yes we have limited oil supplies and yes we need to find different energy sources. Various companies around the world are actually doing this I believe, as fossil runs out. This does not mean that every country that has oil reserves will become targets in the future. Besides I believe the US used to import oil from Iraq before they invaded them, so what was the point of invading a county that you already got oil from?
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The U.S. is the world's No.1 military power. It's in a unique position in history and I'm sure those controlling those reins don't want to see them dropped. By securing the last remaining major oil reserves, the military's demand for oil is slaked and the economic engine of the U.S. is temporarily protected. It won't last but it will buy time..more time than the other major power threats (China, India, Japan, Russia etc.) will have.
So the number one military power kills 3000 of its own to Invade Iraq eh? This is to buy more time against other super powers, like China, Japan, and Russia. Ok well since 911 itself cost close to 70 billion in damages and the war on terror has actually cost close to 400 billion, lets round it all up to say 450 billion, then why did they not simply invest all this cash in future technology? Why not buy lots and lots of new ICBM’s, why not restart the star war program? Why spend an absolute fortune on blowing up yourself and on unpopular foreign wars when it would have been simpler just to use all this cash to build up better homeland defenses?
[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Whether you believe that or not, the response to 9/11 provided the current administration with the mandate they desired and allowed them to seize control of the country with the oil assets they felt were critically needed.
Oil that was needed eh? I believe they imported oil from Iraq anyway, so are they now importing more oil from Iraq? I honestly don’t know, maybe you could tell me. Does the US now get more oil out of Iraq than they did prior to the Invasion? Does this all cover the cost of the 450 billion that has been spent?
[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Some might argue that it was a failure because of the current mess in Iraq but I could argue that 'mess' is part of the desired plan. A stable Iraq makes it difficult for the U.S. to 'stay'. An unstable Iraq justifies American long term continued involvement in maintaining some stability and defector control over oil asset management.
Yes and some might argue that the mess in Iraq is nothing to do with foreword planning, quite the reserve in fact. Some might argue that the US and coalition forces that invaded Iraq did not have a clear exit strategy, had no clear mandate has to how to get the country back up and running once the fighting had stopped. Some might also argue that this is the most unpopular war ever and the Coalitions forces are now stuck inside a country that is on the brink of civil war.

Of course some idiot may also say this is exactly how it was all planned out.



[/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]
 
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So that's how you "think" ? If YOU can't debunk it, then it's false ?
No
I'd like to see the final report first.
Post #1048 lists facts contained in the FEMA and NIST reports
that are not going to change in the final report.

The location of the fuel tanks, pipes and generators
is not going to change in the final report.

They have reassessed the damage to the south side but
the location and time frame of the fires is not going to change in the final report.
 
I try and say what is worth saying. Emotional tirades only lead to even greater emotional responses..as you enjoy proving.

Whether you believe that or not, the response to 9/11 provided the current administration with the mandate they desired and allowed them to seize control of the country with the oil assets they felt were critically needed.

Some might argue that it was a failure because of the current mess in Iraq but I could argue that 'mess' is part of the desired plan. A stable Iraq makes it difficult for the U.S. to 'stay'. An unstable Iraq justifies American long term continued involvement in maintaining some stability and defacto control over oil asset management.

MM

Why am I having a problem relating this to a hole in the WTC7?
 
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