10 story hole in WTC 7

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Has NIST claimed that even though their $581 million dollar yearly budget is sufficient for them to produce 10,000 page report on WTC1 & 2, it's not enough, 5.5 years after the fact, to provide a report on WTC7?

Do you feel that the investigation of the WTC7 attack should have taken higher priority than the two towers? If so, you're one of the very few.

Maybe you should get yourself elected to a position of power so you can make things happen the way you'd prefer.
 
I take it you have no argument against the evidence I listed ?

Evidence?

The collapse didn't look normal. If it did then under your proposed belief that it wasn't a CD, I'm sure CD experts would love to learn the trick and save themselves a lot of time and expense. Let's see, it took the fire 7 hours approximately to create all the weak points CD experts usually have to create with precuts and explosives.

The firefighters were in shock from what occured at WTC1 & 2. They were told by their superiors how to treat WTC7. They were psychologically prepared to believe it was going to collapse and faced with all the smoke, glimpses of fire and orders to evacuate the area from their superiors, it's hardly surprising many were quoted declaring WTC7 was a goner. At no point do they ever get quoted as having any idea that it will completely collapse in the fashion that it did.

WTC1 falling debris damage to WTC7 is hardly comparable to fuel-laden jetliners crashing full speed into WTC 1 & 2.

Bin Laden's confession has never been proven as true and he is not on the FBI's wanted list.

MM
 
Evidence?

The collapse didn't look normal.

They rarely do. How many building collapses are a part of your normal day?

If it did then under your proposed belief that it wasn't a CD, I'm sure CD experts would love to learn the trick and save themselves a lot of time and expense. Let's see, it took the fire 7 hours approximately to create all the weak points CD experts usually have to create with precuts and explosives.

Demolition experts go to all that time and expense so nearby buildings won't be damaged. Buildings near WTC7 WERE damaged. But you know this, of course.

The firefighters were in shock from what occured at WTC1 & 2.

Right...all the OTHER times airliners crashed into buildings, it was business as usual...

They were told by their superiors how to treat WTC7.

They didn't need their superiors to tell them to stay the hell away from a building that was burning out of control and creaking and groaning alarmingly.

They were psychologically prepared to believe it was going to collapse and faced with all the smoke, glimpses of fire and orders to evacuate the area from their superiors, it's hardly surprising many were quoted declaring WTC7 was a goner. At no point do they ever get quoted as having any idea that it will completely collapse in the fashion that it did.

Nor were any of them able to provide an accurate weather forcast for the following month. So?

WTC1 falling debris damage to WTC7 is hardly comparable to fuel-laden jetliners crashing full speed into WTC 1 & 2.

Why does it need to be comparable?

Bin Laden's confession has never been proven as true and he is not on the FBI's wanted list.

Therefore, the Joooooos didit!
 
Evidence?

The collapse didn't look normal. If it did then under your proposed belief that it wasn't a CD, I'm sure CD experts would love to learn the trick and save themselves a lot of time and expense. Let's see, it took the fire 7 hours approximately to create all the weak points CD experts usually have to create with precuts and explosives.

Not normal to YOU. And those same CD experts (even the ones who where there that day) don't agree with you that the collapse didn't look normal, and that it only could be CD. Why is that?

The firefighters were in shock from what occured at WTC1 & 2. They were told by their superiors how to treat WTC7. They were psychologically prepared to believe it was going to collapse and faced with all the smoke, glimpses of fire and orders to evacuate the area from their superiors, it's hardly surprising many were quoted declaring WTC7 was a goner. At no point do they ever get quoted as having any idea that it will completely collapse in the fashion that it did.
Are you suggesting that the firefighters at the scene didn't know what they were doing and only report a building ready to fail because they were phychologically prepared to believe that? Did I really read that from you? Perhaps you can, during the course of YOUR investigation, interview some of these incompetent firefighters. Their names have been posted on this very thread. Have at it.

WTC1 falling debris damage to WTC7 is hardly comparable to fuel-laden jetliners crashing full speed into WTC 1 & 2.
What's your point? It was enough to bring WTC7 building down. Prove it wasn't. Besides, I thought you think the other buildings were CD as well.
Bin Laden's confession has never been proven as true and he is not on the FBI's wanted list.
LOL of course. And if it's never been proven it's true, then it HAS to be a fake, right. And don't you think that if it was an inside job the FBI just might have put him on their wanted list? How easy would that be. Could there be OTHER reasons perhaps?

Here's a task for you. tell me what the official story is about why Bin Laden isn't on the wanted list. Do you even know? Don't you think an unbiased investigation would know both sides?
 
So your point is?
all the resources available to them has a branch of the Federal Government
These two quotes are my point. You're implying that NIST has some massive funding source or resource allocation. Your argument implied that its status as a federal government institution gave it powers and resources beyond what it is capable of producing. My point is that NIST is a rather minor outpost of the Department of Commerce, and that it is still limited by both funding and manpower resources.
Has NIST claimed that even though their $581 million dollar yearly budget is sufficient for them to produce 10,000 page report on WTC1 & 2, it's not enough, 5.5 years after the fact, to provide a report on WTC7?
You've reverted back to an argument from personal incredulity. NIST has produced 10,000 pages of peer-reviewed, papers in addition to documentation presented to the public, the congress and the scientific community. Please, do compare that to what Scholars for the Truth has come up with.
And now you are nit-picking about "branch". Maybe I should have said "twig" or "limb"? The point was that they were an organization affiliated with the world's largest organization.
Rather, I showed that your characterization of NIST as a branch of the federal government was woefully overstated.
My point about "hours and expense" to create a successful controlled demolition was to illustrate how difficult it was to intentionally create what you folks blithely accept as natural occurence on 9/11.
And yet, you admitted that a controlled demolition would take thousands of man hours and expert time to achieve. If a controlled demolition is what you're claiming, you should show evidence to support it. Show the evidence of experts putting thousands of man hours into demolishing the WTC 7.
Your egos are so puffed, that just because you can't fathom "how they did the CD", you conclude it wasn't done, and proceed to dismiss everything that suggests it must have been CD.

MM
The ad hominem attack is the refuge of someone who has lost the argument.
 
I didn't realize he was there. I'd be most interested to hear what he saw and heard.

No, I mean he was at this forum, I didn't know him, I asked him about what he knows and what he thinks. He might be busy, I didn't get a reply yet.

I found it quite funny what he said about Brent Blanchard. Gravy we all know your list of quotes, do you also have reports from genuine CD experts who studied it afterwards and independently ?
 
No, I mean he was at this forum, I didn't know him, I asked him about what he knows and what he thinks. He might be busy, I didn't get a reply yet.

I found it quite funny what he said about Brent Blanchard. Gravy we all know your list of quotes, do you also have reports from genuine CD experts who studied it afterwards and independently ?

Not sure if this is what you mean but this is fairly good. I don't think it covers WTC 7 though.
 
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DemolitionDave wrote:

I wouldn't read Blanchard's garbage. He has no experience with explosives,blasting or demolition. He is not an engineer either. He maintains an implosion website and during the day he monitors vibrations on pile driving jobs. He is a self proclaimed "expert"

Brent Blanchard is to the implosion industry as the Chickenhawk is to Foghorn Leghorn. "Quit Bothhering me boy"

There was an ABC Documentary on Explosives demolition where they referred to Blanchard and his sidekick as the "Beavis and Butthead of the Implosion industry"
 
The collapse didn't look normal.

Collapses aren't normal, but I understand what you mean. What this all boils down to, however, is that YOU don't think it looks like a "natural" collapse. Indeed, I doubt you have the required experience to make that judgment call.

If it did then under your proposed belief that it wasn't a CD, I'm sure CD experts would love to learn the trick and save themselves a lot of time and expense.

Considering how much damage 7 WTC did to surrounding buildings, I'll just chalk up your claim here as a lie.

The firefighters were in shock from what occured at WTC1 & 2. They were told by their superiors how to treat WTC7. They were psychologically prepared to believe it was going to collapse and faced with all the smoke, glimpses of fire and orders to evacuate the area from their superiors, it's hardly surprising many were quoted declaring WTC7 was a goner. At no point do they ever get quoted as having any idea that it will completely collapse in the fashion that it did.

Speculation. I don't really care for it.

WTC1 falling debris damage to WTC7 is hardly comparable to fuel-laden jetliners crashing full speed into WTC 1 & 2.

Which is why the two are completely different.

Bin Laden's confession has never been proven as true and he is not on the FBI's wanted list.

Good for him. This is no proof of a controlled demolition. In fact, a government conspiracy, if your argument above had any value, would've ensured that Ibn Laden would be on the list.
 
Nothing but lame responses.

aggle-rithm "..building collapses rarely look normal.."

It's a rarity for buildings to completely collapse, so I guess it's true that they rarely look normal. Other than as a result of being too close to the epicentre of an earthquake, the atomic bombing in Japan during WWII, or suffering controlled demolition, I don't recall any instances of buildings completely collapsing to the ground.

aggle-rithm "..Buildings near WTC7 WERE damaged.."

Your point? That's common knowledge. This was hardly a "invite the public" controlled demolition. Obviously they wanted the building destroyed yet they had to hope the belief that fire and debris damage would be acceptable as the cause. Too little demolition and the building isn't destroyed. Too much and it's obviously a man made destruction. So they went with limited overkill which resulted in collateral damage to other buildings and unfortunately for them, still displayed a classic controlled demolition building collapse.

aggle-rithm "..all the OTHER times airliners crashed into buildings.."

There had never ever been a New York 9/11 incident before! Over 300 brother firefighters lost their lives. I think the surviving firefighters had every right to be in shock.

twinstead "..are you suggesting the firefighters didn't know what they were doing..only reported the building was going to fall because they were told to.."

I said they never once were quoted as expecting a complete collapse. They never once indicated that in all their expertise that they imagined the building might collapse rapidly, symmetrically and into it's own rough footprint. I do think that as a result of the horror that they had experienced with the twin towers, that it was quite conceivable that they were more receptive to believing WTC7 was going to collapse then they might otherwise have been.

The Almond "..NIST..was but a minor outpost of the Department of Commerce.."

Whatever you say, NIST was 'connected'. They are a government agency and in a position to request/demand, special/extra funding and resources if they deemed it necessary. NIST administrators had an inside track that no private company could openly admit to.

The Almond "..controlled demolition..would take thousands of man hours.."

Learn to read oh pompous one! I never attached any numerical figure to the number of man hours. I've explained in other threads how it would be possible to covertly setup a CD in WTC 1,2 & 7.

MM
 
The Almond "..NIST..was but a minor outpost of the Department of Commerce.."

Whatever you say, NIST was 'connected'. They are a government agency and in a position to request/demand, special/extra funding and resources if they deemed it necessary.
Those requests would be subject to a public hearing before congress. Despite your poorly conceived notions about the federal government, congress does not simply open up the grab bag for funding and resources. They set aside money for NIST, but did not set up a time frame for the response so that NIST could produce an accurate report.

It seems to me that the majority of conspiracy theorists have no concept of how scientific research is done. Congress does not give money to the National Cancer Institute and declare that all cancer will be cured in 10 years. Good science takes time, peer review takes time and accuracy takes time. Thus far, you've offered only arguments from personal incredulity, and yet you have failed to show any capacity to argue on a scientific or technical level. The fact that you think the report is taking too long only highlights your inability to comprehend the nature of scientific research.
NIST administrators had an inside track that no private company could openly admit to.
Oh please, tell me what inside track NIST had. Also, tell me how they kept this inside track from the dozens of private companies contracted out to do many of the research tasks involved in the NCSTAR. While you're at it, tell me how the independent advisory council whose members included faculty from 2 major engineering universities did not notice this "inside track."
The Almond "..controlled demolition..would take thousands of man hours.."

Learn to read oh pompous one!
Your ad hominem attacks are becoming tiresome. Or do you think they make you look smarter?
I never attached any numerical figure to the number of man hours.

Perhaps you could enlighten me. Show me a controlled demolition of a building whose size is comparable to the WTC towers that DID NOT take thousands of man hours.

I've explained in other threads how it would be possible to covertly setup a CD in WTC 1,2 & 7.
And yet, arguing entirely from the hypothetical, without corroborating evidence, is a complete waste of time. I could write many pages about how a hypothetical race of pan-dimensional beings brought down the towers, but without proof that said beings exist, the hypothesis is worth nothing.

I've also noticed how you ignored many of the salient points made against you. You whined when R.Mackey did that to you in the NIST thread, and yet you do just that here. I must say, your representation of your arguments thus far has been very poor. You whine, you insult, you make generalizations, you refuse to respond to counter arguments and you have yet to produce any evidence for any of your claims. Perhaps you could take this opportunity to learn about rhetoric and logic by representing yourself like an adult, and produce arguments that don't devolve into name-calling and poorly strung, wildly illogical statements.
 
mm you have some nerve calling rational objections to your conjecture and nonsense as 'lame'. You don't know what lame is.

Lame is:

I said they never once were quoted as expecting a complete collapse. They never once indicated that in all their expertise that they imagined the building might collapse rapidly, symmetrically and into it's own rough footprint. I do think that as a result of the horror that they had experienced with the twin towers, that it was quite conceivable that they were more receptive to believing WTC7 was going to collapse then they might otherwise have been.
YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN THAT THE BUILDING SHOULDN'T HAVE COLLAPSED THE WAY IT DID.

You have nothing but conjecture, and are guessing what they might have been thinking. The experts were clear: They expected the building to fail at any time. How exactly it would fail, would it fall symmetrically, would it topple over, would it float up into space and turn purple, WHO CARES?

The fact remains that damage, fire, leans, sounds and bulges that were indicative of something bad happening to the building was observed. By LOTS of people. Experts after the fact see nothing wrong with how they collapsed, but do you expect firefighters to describe exactly how the building was to fail?

Your task is to prove that once collapse started, ONLY CD could have caused it to fall like it did. Right now that's of primary importance because your entire theory relies on it. Your theory is a house of cards that will come crumbling down like the WTC7 if you can't prove that CD could only have been responsible more than "I don't believe it".

Frankly, I could care less what you believe. I'm not buying your little ideologically-primed fantasy, and neither are people who actually DO know what they are talking about concerning the subject.

So that leaves us with me, not an expert. You, not an expert. I will defer to experts, you can keep pulling this unadulterated crap out of your posterior. Have fun
 
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Nothing but lame responses.
...

aggle-rithm "..Buildings near WTC7 WERE damaged.."

Your point? That's common knowledge. This was hardly a "invite the public" controlled demolition. Obviously they wanted the building destroyed yet they had to hope the belief that fire and debris damage would be acceptable as the cause. Too little demolition and the building isn't destroyed. Too much and it's obviously a man made destruction. So they went with limited overkill which resulted in collateral damage to other buildings and unfortunately for them, still displayed a classic controlled demolition building collapse.
You actually admit here that the collapse of WTC 7 doesn't really look like a classic controlled demolition.
That's remarkable, because the only argument in favor of controlled demolition of WTC 7 I've heard is that it looks so on video. (I assume you don't buy the "pull it" argument.)

But now, we have no reasonable motive, no trace of explosives, no sound characteristic of controlled demolition, and it doesn't really look like controlled demolition either! What's left then?
 
Nothing but lame responses.

aggle-rithm "..building collapses rarely look normal.."

It's a rarity for buildings to completely collapse, so I guess it's true that they rarely look normal. Other than as a result of being too close to the epicentre of an earthquake, the atomic bombing in Japan during WWII, or suffering controlled demolition, I don't recall any instances of buildings completely collapsing to the ground.



Really? What about the Kader Toy Factory fire? Or the Seol shopping mall collapse? Or two collapses of apartment complexes in Italy? Or stadium collapses due to excessive audiences (these are surprisingly frequent). Or buildings collapsing due to storms. Or floods.

Buildings completely collapse for all sorts of reason.




aggle-rithm "..Buildings near WTC7 WERE damaged.."

Your point? That's common knowledge. This was hardly a "invite the public" controlled demolition. Obviously they wanted the building destroyed yet they had to hope the belief that fire and debris damage would be acceptable as the cause. Too little demolition and the building isn't destroyed. Too much and it's obviously a man made destruction. So they went with limited overkill which resulted in collateral damage to other buildings and unfortunately for them, still displayed a classic controlled demolition building collapse.


So a classic controlled demolition collapse except for the enormous explosions, huge flashes of light, and neat collapse pattern?



twinstead "..are you suggesting the firefighters didn't know what they were doing..only reported the building was going to fall because they were told to.."

I said they never once were quoted as expecting a complete collapse. They never once indicated that in all their expertise that they imagined the building might collapse rapidly, symmetrically and into it's own rough footprint. I do think that as a result of the horror that they had experienced with the twin towers, that it was quite conceivable that they were more receptive to believing WTC7 was going to collapse then they might otherwise have been.


How would you respond to the assessment, made by the FDNY, that the towers would collapse? You do know that's why they ordered the evacuation of WTC1, right?




The Almond "..controlled demolition..would take thousands of man hours.."

Learn to read oh pompous one! I never attached any numerical figure to the number of man hours. I've explained in other threads how it would be possible to covertly setup a CD in WTC 1,2 & 7.


I've just been discussing this. The people I'm talking to claim that a very small team went in at nights, every night, for years, setting charges. Do you agree with this claim? One of them claimed the demolition team has been hard at work since 1993.

-Gumboot
 
Your point? That's common knowledge. This was hardly a "invite the public" controlled demolition. Obviously they wanted the building destroyed yet they had to hope the belief that fire and debris damage would be acceptable as the cause. Too little demolition and the building isn't destroyed. Too much and it's obviously a man made destruction. So they went with limited overkill which resulted in collateral damage to other buildings and unfortunately for them, still displayed a classic controlled demolition building collapse.

Now you are inventing stuff. You're talking as if you were in on the 911 conspiracy planning meetings, for God's sake. Yea, it was an almost perfect plan, and they would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for your intrepid crack WTC investigative team.

You use the classic approach: "well, the buildings were rigged to NOT look like CD, but they didn't do a good enough job and we saw right through it". All the experts are fooled or 'in on it', but they didn't count on you brave folks, did they?

And yet you don't see how ludicrous that is.
 
Well, perhaps you should trust the experts' knowledge on this, rather than trust your own layman's thoughts.
Who are these 'experts' that say debris penetrated 90' into WTC 7, ejected the elevators and severed the fuel supply pipe?

That's interesting, considering that no computer on earth could do this.
It doesn't take an expert or a computer to see which direction the debris came from. [see post# 948]
You're right about tracing the path of debris thru the building. That would be very dificult or impossible.

Again, you're trying to simplify everything so that all things are equal. You're forgetting a great number of factors that might have come into play. Bankers Trust is NOT 7 WTC. 2 WTC's collapse was NOT 1 WTC's. Etc.
WTC 7 and Bankers Trust are similar. They both have steel frames with large perimeter columns and concrete floors.
WTC 1 and 2 were almost identical straight down collapses.
 
Christopher7, can you name some major events on 9/11 that were more severe in WTC 7 than they were at the Bankers Trust Building?
The severe debris damage and fires were in the western portion of WTC 7.

There was no debris damage to the eastern 1/3 of WTC 7.

The only major fire on the eastern end of WTC 7 was on the 12th floor and that burned out by 4:45 p.m.
 
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