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Toothpaste worthless?

Jeremy

Thinker
Jeremy
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
150
I was asking Dr. Reiss about the causes of tooth decay—genetics vs. diet, etc. etc.—when he began explaining why toothpaste is such a bogus product. Any claims that toothpaste makes about preventing decay, whitening teeth, etc., are totally falacious, Dr. Reiss told me, because the F.D.A. can’t and won’t allow the ingredients necessary to perform those chores in an over-the-counter product that children can easily get hold of.
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Dental Wisdom, Freakonomics Blog by Stephen J. Dubner.

Does anyone have any real data on the utility of toothpaste? I personally find the Freakonomics guys interesting, but they have been know to go off half-cocked with wrong information.
 
After having looked into this issue, it's most likely that the benefit of toothpaste comes more from the abrasive effect than the flouride. In fact, brushing your teeth with a toothbrush without toothpaste may be as effective as brushing with toothpaste.

But it's all better than not brushing at all.
 
Yes. The benefit of toothpaste is probably more "cosmetic". (ie. breath feels fresher, teeth feel cleaner). The toothbrush itself is probably all that's needed to remove most gunk.

But...even better...dental floss.

The dental hygenists used to nag about flossing daily. The one finally said, if you have a choice between brushing and flossing, just floss. Once I started flossing and brushing, the difference was obvious. (cuts the time it takes for cleanings in half).
 
But since tooth decay is caused by the acids secreted by the bacteria on the teeth, wouldn't the alkalinity (toothpaste is mostly chalk, with some seaweed and detergent added in) work toward neutralizing the acids?
 
Psi Baba said:
But since tooth decay is caused by the acids secreted by the bacteria on the teeth, wouldn't the alkalinity (toothpaste is mostly chalk, with some seaweed and detergent added in) work toward neutralizing the acids?
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By the time they secrete acids in any quantity great enough to harm your teeth, the damage is already done. Brushing and flossing aims to remove the bacteria from the surface of the teeth before plaque can harden.
 
C'mon, its a no brainer. If it's the brushing that has the benefi, and not the toothpaste, then brush.

Now try brushing without toothpaste.

Not such a pleasant experience is it?

So buy the paste you like best and/or is the cheapest and get on with it.

And now you have the added bonus that every time a toothpaste advert comes on the TV you can tell everyone about how its all bogus.
 
I followed my dentist's advice to use a fluoride rinse before brushing. After swishing it around for over 60 seconds, I find a lot of the stuff has been removed and I have fresh breath. At that point I either floss, brush with toothpase, or brush without toothpaste.
 
Jeremy said:
Dental Wisdom, Freakonomics Blog by Stephen J. Dubner.

Does anyone have any real data on the utility of toothpaste? I personally find the Freakonomics guys interesting, but they have been know to go off half-cocked with wrong information.
Click to expand...

I have religiously brushed my teeth for years, up and down and sideways, getting every nook and cranny...and sloshing out my mouth, repeatedly with hot water , over and over. And what do I have to show for it? A bunch of missing molars that are or have just mysteriously getting/got cavities and falling apart. One tooth that decayed had a sizeable chunk that came off and I was able to look at it and I discovered that there was almost no enamel before it got to the pulp! I am considering the possibility I have a genetic flaw where I was born with thin enamel. Maybe? My dad now has dentures and my grandpa did at a relatively early age...and they claim I take after my grandpa.

Now whether or not toothpaste does any good for people with normal healthy teeth, in warding off cavities? Well, it's bound to do SOME good just by virtue you are cleaning your teeth with...(get ready)...BEACH SAND!!!!!!!! It contains silica, you know.
 
I don't know about cavities, but brushing (with or without the paste) would keep plaque in check. I'm more concerned with gingivitis than cavities, myself.

As an aside, if these products don't do the things they claim they do, then what's up with the ADA? Don't they review these claims?
 
I should add that a new toothpaste ingredient, liquid calcium, looks to have promise in adding enamel and strengthening teeth. It's available in some Arm & Hammer toothpastes. The data is still incomplete but it may be the first real advance in toothcare in decades.

BTW, 36 years old and never had a cavity. Brush but don't floss, see my dentist twice a year.
 
Loss Leader said:
I should add that a new toothpaste ingredient, liquid calcium, looks to have promise in adding enamel and strengthening teeth. It's available in some Arm & Hammer toothpastes. The data is still incomplete but it may be the first real advance in toothcare in decades.

BTW, 36 years old and never had a cavity. Brush but don't floss, see my dentist twice a year.
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Are you male or female? If female, have you had any children? My mom had no cavities up until 21, and after she had me she had a mouthful. The dentist said having a child depleted her calcium reserves. So watch it (if you are female).
 
My sister in law, a dds, and her husband, also a dds, privately encourage you all to ignore toothpaste, flossing, and regular visits to your denist for at least ten or twenty years. Then visit him :) where he will overtly 'tsk' you as he pulls all those beyond hope, performs root canals on those that are borderline, fills and/or caps those that actually managed to remain at least somewhat intact, and relutantly gives your mostly toothless self a bill for a few thousand dollars, then tells you what the bridges will cost in order for you to once again eat steak.
 
If you have a dish with food on it, and wipe it down with a rag (no soap), is it clean? Well, mostely, but there will be a resiude.

Soaps helps solublize things that don't come off easy. It's my thought that the soap in toothpaste is there real benefit. Along with extra abrassives in the mix (it's why i like crest and/or baking soda).

I"m guessing you could brush your teeth with dawn and get a similar benefit, but it'd be gross.

I think it'd be interesting to check cavity differences between people who drink bottle/purified water (no Fl) vs. those who drink tap. Just to see if there is a benefit to Fl in tap water.

Crest advance does have a polymer that can coat teeth temporarily. IF this helps, I don't know. But it's not a bad idea.

However, I think the whitening issue is a much more valid scam claim.
 
Psi Baba said:
But since tooth decay is caused by the acids secreted by the bacteria on the teeth, wouldn't the alkalinity (toothpaste is mostly chalk, with some seaweed and detergent added in) work toward neutralizing the acids?
Click to expand...

Except that I'd guess that, since most people only brush at bedtime and/or when they get up, i.e. long since they ate last, that 99% of the damage from food digestion in the mouth is already done, and particles long since washed away.
 
joobz said:
Soaps helps solublize things that don't come off easy. It's my thought that the soap in toothpaste is there real benefit. Along with extra abrassives in the mix (it's why i like crest and/or baking soda).

I"m guessing you could brush your teeth with dawn and get a similar benefit, but it'd be gross.
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I think you're mixing up your soaps. Dawn is a detergent - it breaks down grease. It doesn't really work through abrasion; that's your sponge/brillo pad. Comet and certain polishes work by abrasion but they also contain some deadly poisons. The abrasive in toothpaste is hydrated silica which is - wait for it - sand. So brush with sand if you want to experiment. Just don't be surprised if it tastes like sand.

For more on toothpaste, go to www.lethaldose.org
 
Iamme said:
I have religiously brushed my teeth for years, up and down and sideways, getting every nook and cranny...and sloshing out my mouth, repeatedly with hot water , over and over. And what do I have to show for it? A bunch of missing molars that are or have just mysteriously getting/got cavities and falling apart. One tooth that decayed had a sizeable chunk that came off and I was able to look at it and I discovered that there was almost no enamel before it got to the pulp! I am considering the possibility I have a genetic flaw where I was born with thin enamel. Maybe? My dad now has dentures and my grandpa did at a relatively early age...and they claim I take after my grandpa.

Now whether or not toothpaste does any good for people with normal healthy teeth, in warding off cavities? Well, it's bound to do SOME good just by virtue you are cleaning your teeth with...(get ready)...BEACH SAND!!!!!!!! It contains silica, you know.
Click to expand...

Do you have fluoride in your water?
 
Don't use Dawn

joobz said:
I"m guessing you could brush your teeth with dawn and get a similar benefit, but it'd be gross.

.
Click to expand...

If some of that Dawn found its way down your throat, you'd get diarrhea. I suggest that people keep the dish soap out of the mouth, and rinse your dishes well.

--Scott
 
Loss Leader said:
I think you're mixing up your soaps. Dawn is a detergent - it breaks down grease. It doesn't really work through abrasion; that's your sponge/brillo pad. Comet and certain polishes work by abrasion but they also contain some deadly poisons. The abrasive in toothpaste is hydrated silica which is - wait for it - sand. So brush with sand if you want to experiment. Just don't be surprised if it tastes like sand.

For more on toothpaste, go to www.lethaldose.org
Click to expand...
I wasn't claiming that the abrasives were the soap. When I said Soap, I meant the surfactants. Whether SLS or SDS or any other amphiphilic molecule they use to attack grease. (it's what causes the foaming when you brush). So I was refering to dawn which uses SLS lauryl and laureth variety for that reason.

The reason I mentioned the abasives is that some toothpastes don't have them (I think collgate is one). they use a polymer bead thickener (Carbopol) to get the consistancy. It doesn't make your teeth feel as smooth and "Puuuurty".
 
Scott Haley said:
If some of that Dawn found its way down your throat, you'd get diarrhea. I suggest that people keep the dish soap out of the mouth, and rinse your dishes well.

--Scott
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Part of the reason why you don't swollow toothpaste either. It's got the surfactants as well (just not has high concentration).
 
joobz said:
I wasn't claiming that the abrasives were the soap. When I said Soap, I meant the surfactants. Whether SLS or SDS or any other amphiphilic molecule they use to attack grease. (it's what causes the foaming when you brush). So I was refering to dawn which uses SLS lauryl and laureth variety for that reason.
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OK. I never really thought of the sulfates as abrasives. They're just there to make things foamy. I always thought it was more of the marketing effect that products get because people associate "foaming" with "working."

I still think it's the sand more than the SLS that cleans the teeth but, as there is next to no real information as to whether either of these ingredients actually prevents cavities, I guess it could go either way.
 
Beerina said:
Except that I'd guess that, since most people only brush at bedtime and/or when they get up, i.e. long since they ate last, that 99% of the damage from food digestion in the mouth is already done, and particles long since washed away.
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Not what my dentist told me. Most of the damage happens as it sits overnight. Saliva, apparently, is our #1 defense against tooth decay. As you sleep you produce less. His words:

"Brush your teeth before going to bed."

He didn't say anything about not using toothpaste...
 
Loss Leader said:
OK. I never really thought of the sulfates as abrasives. They're just there to make things foamy. I always thought it was more of the marketing effect that products get because people associate "foaming" with "working."

I still think it's the sand more than the SLS that cleans the teeth but, as there is next to no real information as to whether either of these ingredients actually prevents cavities, I guess it could go either way.
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NO, You are right. they're not. The foaming is just a byproduct of what the soap does. quick lesson in surfactants (Forgive me if I am explaining something that is considered common knowledge)

a surfactant or "amphiphile" has a hydrophobic end and a hydrophilic end. meaning, that part of it wants to be in oil part wants to be in water (hence the term amphiphile). Anyway, Since air is "hydrophobic" (all that nitrogen), the soap partitions at the air/water interface. so when the water and air shake up, there isn't a strong energy for minimizing the surface energy, hence foam.

This also is how the soap "breaks down" greese. It doesn't do anything chemically. It just creates tiny bits of greese that are easier to wash away. Since many bacteria in the mouth use oils and proteins to adhere to the teeth, the surfactant helps reduce this adhesion and wash them away.

But, bacteria is always improving. So I'm sure some have biofilms that are resistant to the soap. Hence the need for brushing.
Or you could rinse with 70/30 ethanol water. that'd help to kill the bacteria. It'd burn butafter several ounces of "rinsing" the burning wouldn't be so bad...
 
Iamme said:
Are you male or female? If female, have you had any children? My mom had no cavities up until 21, and after she had me she had a mouthful. The dentist said having a child depleted her calcium reserves. So watch it (if you are female).
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Did she Have Gestational Diabetes? There's a good mounting of evidence that GD can greatly deminish dental health. (just like diabetes). My wife (currently pregnant) was diagnosed with GD and was asked to participate in a study on dental health. Anyway, she's controlled her clucose levels wonderfully with diet and didn't have any dental problems.

An amusing aside, The dentist who checked her out claimed that she could tell outright if a patient who came in was GD just by looking at the teeth. Which I found funny since it kinda was a funny example why double blind trials are needed (refering to a previous thread).
 
Anecdote: I haven't needed a filling since 1976, when I had 51 filled. In that time, a tube of toothpaste lasts me 3 years- i just had to add some water to a tube of crest because it was getting stiff. I brush a couple times a week, floss a couple times per year. Tooth brush is 4 years old. I've been diabetic for 27 of those years. Municipal water not flouridated yet. There is more to dental health than "brush after every meal", but I dunno what.
 
casebro said:
Anecdote: I haven't needed a filling since 1976, when I had 51 filled. In that time, a tube of toothpaste lasts me 3 years- i just had to add some water to a tube of crest because it was getting stiff. I brush a couple times a week, floss a couple times per year. Tooth brush is 4 years old. I've been diabetic for 27 of those years. Municipal water not flouridated yet.

There is more to dental health than "brush after every meal", but I dunno what.
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:eye-poppi

Yeah - just get all your teeth filled to the point where there is hardly any enamel left to get cavities on. ouch
 
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Rob Lister said:
My sister in law, a dds, and her husband, also a dds, privately encourage you all to ignore toothpaste, flossing, and regular visits to your denist for at least ten or twenty years. Then visit him :) where he will overtly 'tsk' you as he pulls all those beyond hope, performs root canals on those that are borderline, fills and/or caps those that actually managed to remain at least somewhat intact, and relutantly gives your mostly toothless self a bill for a few thousand dollars, then tells you what the bridges will cost in order for you to once again eat steak.
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Yet another reason to avoid Hampton Roads. Ex-military doc I take it? ;)

joobz said:
I think it'd be interesting to check cavity differences between people who drink bottle/purified water (no Fl) vs. those who drink tap. Just to see if there is a benefit to Fl in tap water.
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I have no links or proof but I could have sworn this benefit was proven decades ago - ? Anyone?

Man I found this thread more interesting than I should I think; I'm truly getting old :(
 
joobz said:
I think it'd be interesting to check cavity differences between people who drink bottle/purified water (no Fl) vs. those who drink tap. Just to see if there is a benefit to Fl in tap water.
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I'd have to confess to being quite worried by that question. I'm guessing you're quite young, because the issue of flouridation of water supplies was debated to death during the 1970s and '80s. The issue is now [surely] well beyond any reasonable doubt. Flouride hardens tooth enamel and addition to water supplies has saved jillions of dollars worth of fillings and teeth since its introduction. Dentists are currently concerned about exactly that fact. People (stupidly) drinking bottled water and giving it to their kids to drink, where good tap water exists, are helping bring back tooth decay. Bizarre.

Probably even safer, for kids anyway, than bottled water, according to the Australian Dental Association, which found in a 2004 survey that the growth in use of unfluoridated bottled water by children was one of the main factors behind rising tooth decay.
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The Atheist said:
I'd have to confess to being quite worried by that question. I'm guessing you're quite young, because the issue of flouridation of water supplies was debated to death during the 1970s and '80s. The issue is now [surely] well beyond any reasonable doubt. Flouride hardens tooth enamel and addition to water supplies has saved jillions of dollars worth of fillings and teeth since its introduction. Dentists are currently concerned about exactly that fact. People (stupidly) drinking bottled water and giving it to their kids to drink, where good tap water exists, are helping bring back tooth decay. Bizarre.
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I guess younger than some older than others (born in 75). As for the debate, the only debates I remember as a kid was people believing it was some weirdo mind control thing. So I never really paid attention to it.

I know Fl hardens the Calcium phosphate structure and fluoride treatments are hugely beneficial. i was just saying that I didn't know if it was ever proven that Fl in water did anything. It makes sense it would, but never saw the studies saying so.
 
joobz said:
I think it'd be interesting to check cavity differences between people who drink bottle/purified water (no Fl) vs. those who drink tap. Just to see if there is a benefit to Fl in tap water.
Click to expand...

I have to ask how flourinated water could ever make a difference. When I drink, I pour water down my throat. Unless people are trying to chew their water, why would their teeth be involved at any point?
 
I had a dentist explain it to me this way:

It's a matter of aerobic and anerobic bacteria in the space between the teeth and gums. The anerobics do the damage, but as they are anerobic, they don't grow in the presence of oxygen. The aerobic bacteria don't secrete the acids, but they do build up over time to the point where they finally form a barrier to oxygen, and then the anerobics start to grow. You need to stop the anerobic bacteria from growing. It takes 27 hours for the aerobics to build up to the point where the anerobics can get going. So, you need to brush at least once a day in a manner to get rid of the aerobic bacteria. A side-to-side brushing once a day accomplishes this.

I took his advice and haven't had a cavity in the ten years since he told me this. Any toothpaste that has any antibacterial properties will only aid in this process -- and flouride does kill bacteria. So, yes, brushing is the key factor, but toothpaste will increase the efficiency of the process. So does an antibacterial mouthwash. (My current dentist further suggested that I rinse my brush with Listerine® before brushing, to introduce its antibacterial qualities into the equation also.) Question: would you use toothpaste without a toothbrush? What would be the point?
 
just to add my two cents...my dentist mumbled something about not really needed toothpaste. it was sort of funny.

i think i asked something like if there was a brand that was best that i should get and he was like "it doesnt really matter if you even use any as long as you brush." totally caught me off guard but i didnt want to look foolish so i just went with it, haha

also, he said that some people do seem to have better immune systems to fight off teh bacteria that cause gum disease and tooth decay...he was saying this cause it had been 7 years since i had been to the dentist and he was shocked i wasnt a lot worse off than i was, hah.
 
gfunkusarelius said:
just to add my two cents...my dentist mumbled something about not really needed toothpaste. it was sort of funny.

i think i asked something like if there was a brand that was best that i should get and he was like "it doesnt really matter if you even use any as long as you brush." totally caught me off guard but i didnt want to look foolish so i just went with it, haha

also, he said that some people do seem to have better immune systems to fight off teh bacteria that cause gum disease and tooth decay...he was saying this cause it had been 7 years since i had been to the dentist and he was shocked i wasnt a lot worse off than i was, hah.
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I'm sure diet and behavior has a lot to do with it too.
I'm guessing you don't do crystal meth and don't have a habit of swishing corn syrup around your mouth before you go to bed.
 
bigred said:
Yet another reason to avoid Hampton Roads. Ex-military doc I take it? ;)
(
Click to expand...

Not at all. Both are very, very successful, very professional, and never military. I was, of course, jesting that they would encourage anyone to never brush, floss, have regular cleanings, etc. They 'tsk' exceedingly.

I'm surprised at how much skepticism is presented in this thread as it regards dental care in general. I don't think an ADA Certified toothpaste is all that important but I do think keeping your teeth as plaque and tarter free is VERY important.

Ask your dentist sometime to show you a few REAL teeth that he had to pull. Most every one he will show you will likely exhibit the same...root cause. The plague turns to tarter and works its way under the gum.

This takes years, but years is happen.

The tarter continues until such time as it works it way into the the area where the under-gum bone connects to the tooth.

This too takes several years, but several years too happen.

The progression of the tarter under the gum and extending to the bone presents a non-trivial method for infection and bone loss. If you catch it early enough a specialist can lay back your gums and clean off the underlying tarter -- and expensive and painful procedure.

If not, the tooth will have to be pulled.

Outer degradation results in infection to the root from a cavity, if not filled or capped in a timely fashion. This requires a root canal -- also an expensive procedure, and fairly temporary (in terms of another several years that it might last.

I've lost two molars due to my early negligence. I intend to loose no more, and have spent a painful/painful couple of thousands insuring just that.
 
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Darat said:
There are quite a lot of studies regarding the effectiveness of toothpaste and so on - one I've just read about one of the latest miracle ingredients triclosan: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-051X.1995.tb01780.x
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I was also going to mention Triclosan--one of the reasons I use Colgate Total 12 Hour protection toothpaste—and read the same study. :) Its the only toothpaste I know to contain Triclosan (.3%)… same ingredient used in all types of antibacterial products from soaps to plastics.

Here’s another study on Chlorohexidine, the most effective of them all.

Too bad they don’t sell an over the counter Chlorohexidine toothpaste. It topped the charts, with Triclosan not far behind. Incidentally the Colgate website warns not to use Fluoride and chlorohexidine together… Some sort of negative interaction with detergents and fluoride in toothpaste.

I know it’s commonly said there are no advantages between electric and manual brushing with all things being equal in usage and intensity, but with my personal experience I’ve found that my brushing time and effectiveness has improved significantly using an electric brush. Best investment I ever made on my mouth. Manual brushing was so monotonous that I’d take shortcuts and brush less just to be done with it. With the electric model I found myself brushing longer (3-4 minutes) without all the fatigue that would normally accompany aggressive manual brushing for the same duration.

Colgate Baking Soda and Peroxide Whitening with Tartar Control beat out thirty-eight other brands for overall cleaning ability, bacterial inhibition and fluoride release. Surprisingly it does not containTriclosan and appears to rely on its high abrasive factor. I’ll stick to Colgate Total.
http://www.consumersearch.com/www/family/toothpaste/fullstory.html#intro
 
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