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Why Mythbusters never debunked dowsing

steenkh said:
A “hot” dowsing could explain it, but locating records for an area before the dowsing, seems to be an awful lot of work for 25$.
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If you do it regularly a copy would be a good investment
 
Explorer said:
The comments re my witnessing a dowsing scenario are largely the same as they were when I posted this on here a few years ago. They were about pre-knowledge of the water pipe track from existing records, which of course my boss could have looked up for himself prior to commissioning a dowser, so I don't think that is a very convincing explanation. I watched the guy do the job and he didn't for example have any notes in his hand at the time, or looking down at anything apart from the crossing of the coat hangers, then stopping to plant the sticks in the ground. It didn't actually take very long, it must have been around 10 to 15 minutes. There is no "proof" available either way, so personally it has to be recorded as "interesting", but no more than that, but I thought I would post it again to see if any new alternatives cropped up.
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An even more pragmatic answer relies on basic observation. Because some people can't see the obvious for looking.

Example 1: In trying to locate a water pipe, simply look between the two points it is supposed to connect. See the roof drain pipe over there? And the gutter outlet over here where it is supposed to run to? What are the chances the "lost" pipe is in a straight line between the two?

Example 2: The underground pipe to the garden faucet is not delivering water. Chances are it is blocked and broken...but where? Perhaps it's about where that large tuft of saplings and weeds is growing in fairly dry ground? Over there, in line between the faucet and the pipe running into the ground (see above).
 
Explorer said:
Well I have to disagree that the old ones (you didn't say which) are adequate
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1. Water pipes are not laid randomly (expanded on in the post above this one)
2. Not all information that is received and processed by the subconscious mind is brought to the attention of the conscious mind, but it can still influence muscles
3. Cheating (i.e. looking up plans)
4. Luck
5. Confirmation bias

The invention of, practice of, and belief in dowsing can all be adequately explained by some combination of the above.
 
Darat said:
So what caused the dowsing device to twitch/move? It can't have been electromagnetic or gravity (we know how to test for these and how indeed to use them to find stuff underground) the only forces that can interact with the device are from the person holding the device, so if it isn't "ideometric" then it has to be a "conscious" decision of the dowser to use force to move the device. Do you hold that dowsers are knowingly moving their device?
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The cause of the crossing of the coat hanger prongs is a slight inflection of the wrists. I had tried using coathanger technique several times, and the cross overs occur through these very slight movements. Once I realised this, I knew that the entire process was too subjective and frankly, a waste of time. Maybe a combination of wishful thinking and subliminal motor movements are the cause, rather than trying to use the ideometer effect (also rather subjective). Any "decision" taken is less likely I think, and for me, its more a case of unwitting repeat behaviour, giving the illusion of something more.
 
Explorer said:
The cause of the crossing of the coat hanger prongs is a slight inflection of the wrists. I had tried using coathanger technique several times, and the cross overs occur through these very slight movements. Once I realised this, I knew that the entire process was too subjective and frankly, a waste of time. Maybe a combination of wishful thinking and
subliminal motor movements are the cause, rather than trying to use the ideometer effect (also rather subjective). Any "decision" taken is less likely I think, and for me, its more a case of unwitting repeat behaviour, giving the illusion of something more.
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That "subliminal motor movements" is the ideomotor effect.
 
Darat said:
That "subliminal motor movements" is the ideomotor effect.
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Fair enough, but I was really using my own test experience and thoughts that it ultimately ceased to be subliminal when I realised for myself what was happening. I lost my expectation at a point, and it then totally ended up randomised in effect.
 
Explorer said:
Well I have to disagree that the old ones (you didn't say which) are adequate, when they are not, as they can always have caveats attached to them, like the one I suggested for pre-knowledge. The right answer is there, it's just that it is elusive, and so, as I indicated we have to leave it there. My own view for the record and for what it's worth, is that it was a lucky guess as to the tracking of the pipe. I would add, that I didn't see the size of the excavations and how close to the stick line they were where they found the pipe itself, so if the trench had been quite wide, that could help with the luck element. I find my explanation far more credible and convincing than the pre-knowledge, or any ideometer explanation.
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What about the no pre knowledge needed, its often obvious where the pipes would be based on visible clues? Now knowing that you didn't see the digging, you only need one stick to be in the right place, once that hole is dug, its clear where the pipe goes and they could just follow it.
 
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Roger Ramjets said:
And the 'myths' always involved some effect that was scientifically 'plausible', at least on the surface. I don't remember them testing any 'myth' that involved psychic powers or nonscientific principles - which makes sense because to make the show interesting they wanted things that had a non-zero chance of being confirmed.
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Not always. They once tested "pyramid power" to see if a copper wire bent into a pyramid shape could prevent an apple from rotting or make a razor blade sharper (don't ask me how those effects are related).

I think it's more about removing the skill/gift factor from the test. If Jamie and Adam couldn't find water, then the obvious criticism would be that they weren't born with the magical ability to dowse, so it doesn't count.
 
I Am The Scum said:
Not always. They once tested "pyramid power" to see if a copper wire bent into a pyramid shape could prevent an apple from rotting or make a razor blade sharper (don't ask me how those effects are related).

I think it's more about removing the skill/gift factor from the test. If Jamie and Adam couldn't find water, then the obvious criticism would be that they weren't born with the magical ability to dowse, so it doesn't count.
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You must be too young to remember the 70s, pyramids good do everything in the 70s. One of my favorite words, pyramidiot.

en.wikipedia.org

Pyramid power - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

ETA: I'm 90% sure there was at least one "documentary" that claimed putting a razor blade in a pyramid would keep it sharp forever or maybe even sharpen it.
 
ahhell said:
What about the no pre knowledge needed, its often obvious where the pipes would be based on visible clues? Now knowing that you didn't see the digging, you only need one stick to be in the right place, once that hole is dug, its clear where the pipe goes and they could just follow it.
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Very true, and I think that was the drift of what I said. however, pre-knowledge was not a necessary requirement for this, only luck and flexibility to express the luck.
 
ahhell said:
ETA: I'm 90% sure there was at least one "documentary" that claimed putting a razor blade in a pyramid would keep it sharp forever or maybe even sharpen it.
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In the days of my youth “alternative” shops sold pyramids where you could keep knives and razor blades to keep them sharp.
 
Explorer said:
The cause of the crossing of the coat hanger prongs is a slight inflection of the wrists. I had tried using coathanger technique several times, and the cross overs occur through these very slight movements. Once I realised this, I knew that the entire process was too subjective and frankly, a waste of time. Maybe a combination of wishful thinking and subliminal motor movements are the cause, rather than trying to use the ideometer effect (also rather subjective). Any "decision" taken is less likely I think, and for me, its more a case of unwitting repeat behaviour, giving the illusion of something more.
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Any dowser could eliminate the potential for wrist crossing by supporting the wires in a frame that doesn't allow the uprights to be affected by wrist movement, or by twisting them with the fingers.

A simple rig of two upright tubes, that are fixed in position by a rectangular frame, to hold the 'wires' would do the trick.

I would expect that dowsers would immediately try to make the wires move by tipping the rig forwards and backwards.

As soon as the rig was put on, the excuses would start to flow.

(As has happened every time any dowser has been tested.)
 
The real reason the Mythbusters never debunked dowsing is because they never debunked anything. Exposing bunk was never their purpose. Framing their work as "debunking" grossly misunderstands, and does them a grave disservice.
 
I Am The Scum said:
Not always. They once tested "pyramid power" to see if a copper wire bent into a pyramid shape could prevent an apple from rotting or make a razor blade sharper (don't ask me how those effects are related).

I think it's more about removing the skill/gift factor from the test. If Jamie and Adam couldn't find water, then the obvious criticism would be that they weren't born with the magical ability to dowse, so it doesn't count.
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I saw a Q&A with Adam and that was the answer to the question about any myths he regretted doing. I think it was the only one. (pyramid power)
 
novaphile said:
Any dowser could eliminate the potential for wrist crossing by supporting the wires in a frame that doesn't allow the uprights to be affected by wrist movement, or by twisting them with the fingers.

A simple rig of two upright tubes, that are fixed in position by a rectangular frame, to hold the 'wires' would do the trick.

I would expect that dowsers would immediately try to make the wires move by tipping the rig forwards and backwards.

As soon as the rig was put on, the excuses would start to flow.

(As has happened every time any dowser has been tested.)
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I think dowsers would probably admit to their subliminal motor wrist tilting, and say its an integral part of the process of sensing and expressing their targets. The reason I say this, is that I have never heard a dowser say there is a force of nature moving the wires across, and it has nothing to do with their own muscle energy, unless of course some out there know differently.
 
Explorer said:
I think dowsers would probably admit to their subliminal motor wrist tilting, and say its an integral part of the process of sensing and expressing their targets. The reason I say this, is that I have never heard a dowser say there is a force of nature moving the wires across, and it has nothing to do with their own muscle energy, unless of course some out there know differently.
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You might think that, but in practice they don't. Dowsing was the most common claim tested by the James Randi Educational Foundation, and a lot of dowsers applied for the million dollars. Not one of them failed to make some kind of excuse when they failed the test. The skeptics were cheating, they weren't feeling very well that day, the moon was full and projecting rays of... something... or someone was holding their tongue wrong in their mouth (yes, really). None of them believed that subliminal movements - ie, the ideomotor effect - was what was giving them the "ability" to dowse.
 
@Explorer: I note you've been a member here for quite a while, did you miss this thread?

D

Thread 'Challenge applications'

Why does your link to Challenge Applications show that the last person to challenge for the $1 million, applied on 22nd August 2009?
I am awaiting testing for my ability to dowse and I'd feel comforted to know that the $1 million is still available.
Thanks
DowserDon

It was started by a dowser applicant for the MDC and details the design and execution of a 'dry run' test. It's not too long, mostly civilised, and with very few derails. If you didn't follow it at the time you might find it very informative.
 
arthwollipot said:
You might think that, but in practice they don't. Dowsing was the most common claim tested by the James Randi Educational Foundation, and a lot of dowsers applied for the million dollars. Not one of them failed to make some kind of excuse when they failed the test. The skeptics were cheating, they weren't feeling very well that day, the moon was full and projecting rays of... something... or someone was holding their tongue wrong in their mouth (yes, really). None of them believed that subliminal movements - ie, the ideomotor effect - was what was giving them the "ability" to dowse.
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As I said, there may be some out there that know different, you obviously have some detailed knowledge of this. What exactly did they claim other than the ideometer effect that gave them the special power then, and can you quote any of them? Thanks.
 
Explorer said:
As I said, there may be some out there that know different, you obviously have some detailed knowledge of this. What exactly did they claim other than the ideometer effect that gave them the special power then, and can you quote any of them? Thanks.
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DowserDon's theory involved the piezoelectric effect.
 
"Piezoelectricity is a phenomenon which means that there is a coupling between the electrical and the mechanical state of the material. When a piece of piezoelectric material is mechanically deformed, e.g. compressed, a current will flow and charge its faces"

So nothing to do with detecting water underground then
 
Explorer said:
"Piezoelectricity is a phenomenon which means that there is a coupling between the electrical and the mechanical state of the material. When a piece of piezoelectric material is mechanically deformed, e.g. compressed, a current will flow and charge its faces"

So nothing to do with detecting water underground then
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If you want to know the reasoning, read DowserDon's thread.

DowserDon was attempting to explain a phenomenon that doesn't actually exist, and which consequently doesn't require explanation. What does require explanation is how perfectly intelligent and rational people like DowserDon manage to fool themselves into believing it does exist. Those explanations are well known and well understood. They lie in the fields of human psychology and perception.
 
Pixel42 said:
If you want to know the reasoning, read DowserDon's thread.

DowserDon was attempting to explain a phenomenon that doesn't actually exist, and which consequently doesn't require explanation. What does require explanation is how perfectly intelligent and rational people like DowserDon manage to fool themselves into believing it does exist. Those explanations are well known and well understood. They lie in the fields of human psychology and perception.
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I do think Randi left a legacy that is often overlooked, which is he was one of quite a small group that changed the approach the scientific community took in regards to what needed a scientific explanation in claims of the paranormal, which is why people believe in or make up things that aren't real.
 
ahhell said:
You must be too young to remember the 70s, pyramids good do everything in the 70s. One of my favorite words, pyramidiot.

en.wikipedia.org

Pyramid power - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

ETA: I'm 90% sure there was at least one "documentary" that claimed putting a razor blade in a pyramid would keep it sharp forever or maybe even sharpen it.
Click to expand...
I have a memory that someone found that a razor blade in a pyramid did become (slightly; not sure how it was measured) sharper after a period of time. Someone else then thought to do the control experiment and found that a razor blade left not in a pyramid also became sharper, so some process at the molecular level was happening, but entirely unrelated to pyramids.
 
theprestige said:
The real reason the Mythbusters never debunked dowsing is because they never debunked anything. Exposing bunk was never their purpose. Framing their work as "debunking" grossly misunderstands, and does them a grave disservice.
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Having looked for a reference to see how accurate my memory about is, I find mentioned in the Wikipedia link that ahhell gave that Mythbusters did a programme on pyramidology where they tested (and showed to be false) many of the claims associated with the subject. Not sure how that doesn't qualify as debunking.
 
Explorer said:
As I said, there may be some out there that know different, you obviously have some detailed knowledge of this. What exactly did they claim other than the ideometer effect that gave them the special power then, and can you quote any of them? Thanks.
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They all claim something different. DowserDon claimed as above. Others claimed mystical forces. One notable dowser claimed that she was being visited by otherworldly spirits.
 
zooterkin said:
Having looked for a reference to see how accurate my memory about is, I find mentioned in the Wikipedia link that ahhell gave that Mythbusters did a programme on pyramidology where they tested (and showed to be false) many of the claims associated with the subject. Not sure how that doesn't qualify as debunking.
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It's the spirit of the thing. Debunking implies bunk, implies a charlatan who needs to be exposed. That was never the spirit of Mythbusters.
 
Pixel42 said:
If you want to know the reasoning, read DowserDon's thread.

DowserDon was attempting to explain a phenomenon that doesn't actually exist, and which consequently doesn't require explanation. What does require explanation is how perfectly intelligent and rational people like DowserDon manage to fool themselves into believing it does exist. Those explanations are well known and well understood. They lie in the fields of human psychology and perception.
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I would go further than this and say, that if the cause of dowsing is perceived to be real and "works" for a dowser to any given extent, why even attempt to promote any scientific or pseudo-scientific explanation for it in the first place, in defence of it? If it is perceived to work by people who pay a fee for their service who are happy. My anecdote was describing an elderly gentleman, who probably wouldn't be interested in the slightest or want to take part in, any scientifically controlled test for any specific claim.
 
Explorer said:
I would go further than this and say, that if the cause of dowsing is perceived to be real and "works" for a dowser to any given extent, why even attempt to promote any scientific or pseudo-scientific explanation for it in the first place, in defence of it? If it is perceived to work by people who pay a fee for their service who are happy. My anecdote was describing an elderly gentleman, who probably wouldn't be interested in the slightest or want to take part in, any scientifically controlled test for any specific claim.
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Indeed, they usually claim not to be interested. At best, it displays a stunning lack of curiosity and at worst a cynical knowledge that if they ever put their "ability" to the test, it will be found to be nonexistent.

Because every time it has, it has.
 
arthwollipot said:
Indeed, they usually claim not to be interested. At best, it displays a stunning lack of curiosity and at worst a cynical knowledge that if they ever put their "ability" to the test, it will be found to be nonexistent.

Because every time it has, it has.
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...or they must like taking the money. The other possibility is that they could perceive it as a natural "gift", like a talented artist, and are content with that because like many in this world today, their curiosity has never reached the level of others, at least on here.
 
Explorer said:
The other possibility is that they could perceive it as a natural "gift", like a talented artist, and are content with that because like many in this world today, their curiosity has never reached the level of others, at least on here.
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I believe it is so. Randi also said that dowsers were the only people he felt sorry for, because most really thought their abilities were real.
 
Explorer said:
...or they must like taking the money. The other possibility is that they could perceive it as a natural "gift", like a talented artist, and are content with that because like many in this world today, their curiosity has never reached the level of others, at least on here.
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You should read the old MDC challenge threads, especially the ones with the dowsers.
 
How odd. My link opens the page in the same tab. Your link opens a new tab and displays the page in a not-logged-on state.
 
I did try to open your link in a separate tab and when it failed for me I just added the "www1" to it. So maybe that's why my link opened in a separate tab?
 
theprestige said:
You should read the old MDC challenge threads, especially the ones with the dowsers.
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I read them first time around, but that was quite a while ago now. My point is a different one though, and its not really about the challenge, its more about the psychology and mindset of both the "professional" dowsers and their clients. Obviously there is an element of them who are happy to have their claims tested, but despite the background of that history of testing and the failures, the practice continues, dowsers are hired, and at least, if they are being paid for outcome only, they get paid for instant results, or they don't, presumably. This is rather different from say psychics, where their predictions and forecasts, the outcome is totally random, and if they get a hit, it is by chance only and at some indeterminate time in the future, and no better than my or your made up predictions, or cold readings.

This is a UK website for professional dowsers for interest:


If I set myself up as a professional dowser, I would probably very quickly get disheartened if my hit rate fell below a certain level, when I would say to myself, what the hell am I doing this for? I would probably soon give up, so why do these guys have a mindset that says otherwise. Why do they bother? That of course is my personal psychological reasoning. I would speculate, that if they belong to a group of dowsers that meet regularly, they give themselves support if they are feeling low, and encourage the failed members to carry on regardless, and peer pressure takes over. Other than that, any delusions can only go so far before the pressure to give up is too great to resist. I wonder how many over the years have given up.
 
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