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Utah Official Falsely Claims Student is Transgender

JayUtah said:
She is.
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I investigated a little, a few retweets, one of which is the Italian female prime minister quoting GKChesterton from 1905


Fires will be kindled to testify that two and two make four. Swords will be drawn to prove that leaves are green in summer. We shall be left defending, not only the incredible virtues and sanities of human life, but something more incredible still, this huge impossible universe which stares us in the face.

This predates George Orwell of course with his newspeak.
I must confess I agree with Cline so far, will keep researching.
 
Samson said:
I must confess I agree with Cline so far, will keep researching.
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If you read the article I posted upthread, from the Salt Lake Tribune, you will see the entire history of her tumultuous tenure on the Utah school board. She has been censured many times by the board, and now lately by the Republican Governor and Lt. Governor of our state. Articles of impeachment are being drafted against her by our state legislature.
 
JayUtah said:
If you read the article I posted upthread, from the Salt Lake Tribune, you will see the entire history of her tumultuous tenure on the Utah school board. She has been censured many times by the board, and now lately by the Republican Governor and Lt. Governor of our state. Articles of impeachment are being drafted against her by our state legislature.
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This girl wrongly speculated on may suffer lasting damage. This is totally tragic, but the promotion of transgenderism in youth by Obama Care has this unintended consequence. Cline is now a further refugee from his dangerous legacy.
 
Samson said:
This girl wrongly speculated on may suffer lasting damage. This is totally tragic, but...
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No. No "buts." Natalie Cline has been endangering people of all stripes since her election, for a variety of reasons. There is no excuse for this behavior from a public official.

Cline is now a further refugee from his dangerous legacy.
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No. Natalie Cline is not the real victim here.
 
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Samson said:
There is a cohort of women who hold that men are not women, and that they should not play in women's sport. Maybe Natalie is one of this cohort, and hyper vigilant.
Maybe she is not evil.
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Maybe, but she does harm. Many people believe many things for many reasons. There are people who believe sincerely that women should not be allowed to go to school, and others that homosexuals should be killed, and maybe their beliefs and their souls are not evil but it's what you do that matters. Faith does not give them the right to invade other people's lives and cause them harm.

We're talking here about the public humiliation (and consequential harassment and threats that anyone but an utter and abject idiot should expect to be a consequence) by a person who has no qualification and no cause other than her debatable faith. Sbe did the wrong thing to the wrong person in the wrong way for the wrong reason. Evil is as evil does. Her beliefs might not be evil, but she is.

You say elsewhere that you're on her side. Does that mean you believe it should be her privilege or her right to demand to challenge publicly the biological sex of any person who fails to meet her standards of girlishness? Does it mean, as her behavior suggests, that the default position of anyone she chooses must be to be presumed transgender until proven otherwise?

I sure hope I never wake up in the hate filled, tyrannical and prurient world you seem to hope for.
 
Samson said:
The path to corporate success for women is often sport. The chilling effect on female participation extends well beyond the infrequent incidence, to the point women stop competing.
This official is part of this wider issue. It is certain that sport will revert to sex based participation. If that statement proves to be false, this is a further defeat for the rights of the weak sex.
It is appalling that men would ever argue for their sex to compete against women.
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Sometimes. Women have been outshooting the men in the Olympic 10 meter air rifle finals since 2012.

In dressage, men and women compete along side each other.
 
Ranb said:
Sometimes. Women have been outshooting the men in the Olympic 10 meter air rifle finals since 2012.

In dressage, men and women compete along side each other.
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I know. This is known as
"the exception(s) prove the rule."
 
Ranb said:
Sometimes. Women have been outshooting the men in the Olympic 10 meter air rifle finals since 2012.

In dressage, men and women compete along side each other.
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bruto said:
Maybe, but she does harm. Many people believe many things for many reasons. There are people who believe sincerely that women should not be allowed to go to school, and others that homosexuals should be killed, and maybe their beliefs and their souls are not evil but it's what you do that matters. Faith does not give them the right to invade other people's lives and cause them harm.

We're talking here about the public humiliation (and consequential harassment and threats that anyone but an utter and abject idiot should expect to be a consequence) by a person who has no qualification and no cause other than her debatable faith. Sbe did the wrong thing to the wrong person in the wrong way for the wrong reason. Evil is as evil does. Her beliefs might not be evil, but she is.

You say elsewhere that you're on her side. Does that mean you believe it should be her privilege or her right to demand to challenge publicly the biological sex of any person who fails to meet her standards of girlishness? Does it mean, as her behavior suggests, that the default position of anyone she chooses must be to be presumed transgender until proven otherwise?

I sure hope I never wake up in the hate filled, tyrannical and prurient world you seem to hope for.
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You did not address the phenomenon of men deciding their sex will compete in women's sport. Those who oppose this are not automatically hate filled.
 
Samson said:
Those who oppose this are not automatically hate filled.
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Those who oppose that are not automatically altruistic, either.

You don't know anything about Natalie Cline. She is not some poor, misunderstood soul who made a mistake. She has a three-year tenure of spewing inciteful and dangerous rhetoric without regard to the consequences. You may choose to give her the benefit of your doubt. To those of us who know the facts, there is no doubt.
 
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bruto said:
An exception proves a rule exists. It does not prove its merit.
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The contrary, actually. "Prove" is here used in the sense of testing something, as in "proving grounds." It doesn't mean to establish the truthfulness of something, but to question the truthfulness of something. An exception to a purported rule argues against the rule.

The rule that sports necessarily must segregate by sex is being questioned by the exception.
 
Samson said:
You did not address the phenomenon of men deciding their sex will compete in women's sport. Those who oppose this are not automatically hate filled.
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As if suddenly men in general are going to change their sex just so they can win games. But we are not talking anyway really about actual women's sport, but about adolescents' high school athletics, and we're not talking really even about that, but about a public assault on a person's whole existence, and about the wrong person doing the wrong thing the wrong way in the wrong place to the wrong child for the wrong reasons, her champion pretending that it's all actually all right because in the bizarro world of hypervigilant meddlers and hypocritical pussy-grabbing arbiters of genital correctness, permission is promotion, and like their heroic forebears of the Khmer Rouge and the Shining path, they know that the goal is not to make the world better but righter.
 
JayUtah said:
The contrary, actually. "Prove" is here used in the sense of testing something, as in "proving grounds." It doesn't mean to establish the truthfulness of something, but to question the truthfulness of something. An exception to a purported rule argues against the rule.

The rule that sports necessarily must segregate by sex is being questioned by the exception.
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While I have thought that was the meaning for a long time, I've come to consider the other alternative as well. An exception, after all, has to be an exception to something, or else it would not be needed or specified.

If you say "free parking on Sundays and holidays," that exception has meaning only if there is a rule about paid parking at other times.

Either way, though, the one thing the statement does not mean is that an exception confirms the rightness of the rule.
 
bruto said:
[W]e're not talking really even about [high-school athletics], but about a public assault on a person's whole existence, and about the wrong person doing the wrong thing the wrong way in the wrong place to the wrong child for the wrong reasons, her champion pretending that it's all actually all right...
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To be scrupulous, it's K-12 athletics. Some of Utah's transgender athletes are in middle school. The minor in the OP incidence is a high school student.

It's hard to talk about Natalie Cline without bringing up the dogmatic environment that produced her. But in this case we really can talk about Cline and Cline alone. Despite a few vocal supporters on Twitter, no one approves of what she's done. The constituents who voted her in petitioned for her recall, but Utah law provides for no recall. She's been censured multiple times by the board on which she sits, and she has been denounced by the entire political leadership of our state, which trends dramatically right. Impeachment proceedings have been initiated. At worst, she's up for election this year against a more moderate Republican.

Natalie Cline is the issue in this thread. Her odious behavior is not excused just because some people who who don't know her think that some of her apparent beliefs align with theirs. Out of ignorance and fear, she publicly bullied a minor from a position of authority. There's nothing brave or noble about that. She is not the "real" victim. She is not some misunderstood altruist. She's not some virtuous defender of "family values."
 
bruto said:
If you say "free parking on Sundays and holidays," that exception has meaning only if there is a rule about paid parking at other times.
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Agreed. To prove a rule doesn't mean to discard it categorically. It just makes you question how much of a rule it really is. The more exceptions to the rule, the less valuable the rule is and the more we should rethink it. Complicated situations call for careful rule-making, not a broad-brush gloss just so we can rejoice in the simplicity of the rule.

Either way, though, the one thing the statement does not mean is that an exception confirms the rightness of the rule.
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Right.
 
This video speaks to the main points, a young woman describes the opportunities college sport has given her. She will not stop fighting to exclude all males from her league, and rightly so. She was forced to play against a man or lose her college position it seems.
People idolize Obama, but he created this mess. Cline has made a singular and catastrophic error, but could not in 100 lifetimes destroy the people Obama has.

https://youtu.be/X7h3tw55vvM?si=h8NFSBLBBsl7pOYO
 
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Samson said:
People idolize Obama, but he created this mess. Cline has made a singular and catastrophic error, but...
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No, no "buts." This was no mere error. Cline had ample prior warning of what her colleagues, community, and superiors considered her intolerable behavior, including prior examples of endangering other named individuals on no better basis than speculation and innuendo. Her actions are by no means "singular," but rather part of a well-documented three-year pattern of abuse and endangerment.

...could not in 100 lifetimes destroy the people Obama has.
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No, Cline and her followers are not the pitiable victims of someone else's policy decisions.
 
Even if one were right about how harmful Obama's policies were, and even if by some stretch of the imagination one could equate Cline and her position with Obama and his, I would submit that the tit for tat, he-was-naughty-too kind of comparison is a lousy argument for justifying anything, a feud-inducing fallacy that most of our mommies taught us was wrong very long ago; one that someone purporting to possess a modicum of intelligence ought rightly to avoid.

Not that I'm particularly surprised when such a thing occurs, but I think the quality of arguments is fatally diminished when it does.
 
Ranb said:
Utah official falsely suggests teen student is transgender, now faces calls to resign
https://abcnews.go.com/US/utah-school-board-official-falsely-suggested-teen-girl/story?id=107100300


She claimed, “We live in strange times when it is normal to pause and wonder if people are what they say they are because of the push to normalize transgenderism in our society,” Cline said on Facebook."

Why doesn't she just say, "I'm an *******" instead?

Ranb
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Disregarding the transgender youth sports issue, this is where the rubber meets the road. Posting a picture of a minor on social media and implying that they don't look feminine enough to her (again, from a school board member). She deserves all the scorn, ridicule and admonishment she receives.
 
PitPat said:
Disregarding the transgender youth sports issue, this is where the rubber meets the road. Posting a picture of a minor on social media and implying that they don't look feminine enough to her (again, from a school board member). She deserves all the scorn, ridicule and admonishment she receives.
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Unquestionably true as a standalone act.

No Claudine Gay needed to unpack.
 
Samson said:
Unquestionably true as a standalone act.
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Natalie Cline's behavior is not just a "standalone attack." It's the latest in several of the same kind of attack, documented in official reprimands, investigations, and letters of censure. No about of irrelevant boo-hooing changes that.
 
I think ideological purists of all persuasions share far more attributes than any would care to admit. The real world and the real people who inhabit it tend to disrupt every manifesto.
 
JayUtah said:
Natalie Cline's behavior is not just a "standalone attack." It's the latest in several of the same kind of attack, documented in official reprimands, investigations, and letters of censure. No about of irrelevant boo-hooing changes that.
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Natalie Cline sees God as a fact and evolution as a theory. She has that the wrong way round, so this is against science, thus she is dangerous as an educator.
On her wish to keep men out of women's sport, most people on the planet are in full agreement.

By the way I said standalone act, though roughly the same thing.
 
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Samson said:
Natalie Cline sees God as a fact and evolution as a theory. She has that the wrong way round, so this is against science, thus she is dangerous as an educator.
On her wish to keep men out of women's sport, most people on the planet are in full agreement.

By the way I said standalone act, though roughly the same thing.
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Too bad she seems to want to keep women out of women's sport. Or at least women who don't fit in what women should be like. And you seem to agree with her.
 
Shalamar said:
Too bad she seems to want to keep women out of women's sport. Or at least women who don't fit in what women should be like. And you seem to agree with her.
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Noone will be fooled by that misrepresentation of the thread. You are not fooled either, you are being mischievous.
 
JayUtah said:
What do you actually know of Natalie Cline's tenure as a member of the Utah school board?
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What I could find in nonpaywalled articles.
Her type is predictable, frankly, god obstructs all proper debate in most of the continent.
I agree with her stand on medicating youth, and men in women's sport.
Her idiocy on science and evolution is dangerous but far too commonplace.
Evolutionary biology is a prerequisite to making sense of the human condition, so she is an epic fail as an educator.

That is my summary.
 
Samson said:
What I could find in nonpaywalled articles.
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I didn't ask what limited your ability to find out the facts. I asked what facts you know.

Her type is...
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The issue is not that she is a "type." The issue is that as an individual she has committed truly reprehensible acts, only one of which you seem to know about.

That is my summary.
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Your summary contains nothing of substance. Do you know of her other attempts to endanger others? Do you know of the censures from her otherwise like-minded colleages?
 
Samson said:
Natalie Cline sees God as a fact and evolution as a theory. She has that the wrong way round, so this is against science, thus she is dangerous as an educator.
On her wish to keep men out of women's sport, most people on the planet are in full agreement.

By the way I said standalone act, though roughly the same thing.
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So, let us stipulate, just for the sake of argument, that most people on the planet are in agreement about the issue of trans athletes in women's sport. This is a stipulation only, because though it's been brought up here as relevant, I do not think it should be.

It keeps getting back to the same issue: SO WHAT? Her belief, right or wrong, though it may explain her bad behavior, is irrelevant to judging it. Saying her egregiously unacceptable behavior is a byproduct of what others have done edges dangerously close to the assertion that we must judge our actions and ideas not on what is right but on the harm the worst among us can inflict.

Her faith is irrelevant. I don't care whether or not she has the ear of Jesus Christ or the blood of virgin martyrs flows through her veins. Every detail of her action here was wrong. She is proven unsuited, incompetent and harmful to society. And as others closer to the event have pointed out, this was not a standalone act, but a standout act among many. If she had any decency she'd resign, but that being unlikely, she should be impeached. Not for her beliefs, which she shares with many, but for her actions, pure and simple.
 
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