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SGU promotes misinformation about the Cass review

Elaedith

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Jun 29, 2005
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Last week's SGU podcast episode 995 featured a segment on the Cass review of treatment for children and adolescents with gender dysphoria. The recent review represents four years of research including multiple systematic evidence reviews from the University of York. Following the review, there was a surge of misinformation, including false claims that the review rejected 98% of studies, that the review rejected studies of treatments for not being double-blind placebo-controlled trials, among other claims including conspiracy theories from people being upset with the findings that challenged the quality of research and evidence basis for current practice. The Cass team was forced to issue a FAQ to counter some blatant misinformation.

In the SGU podcast, Steven Novella repeats misinformation so egregious it appears he has not read the review (although he claims to have done so) and is basing his view on misinformation which he has accepted uncritically. This is assuming, of course, that he is not simply lying. I will list the misrepresentations and falsehoods. This is not the place to argue about the review itself, but to discuss the inaccuracy of the claims made.

1) Novella starts with the false statement that the review '.... included cross-sex hormones and gender affirming surgeries, you know, either breast reduction surgery, mastectomy, or vaginoplasty, or whatever, right? So, you know, basically genital surgery.'

Fact: The review dealt only with paediatric patients (under 18) and gender-affirming surgeries are not used in the UK on minors, so were not included. Although it is not an example of online misinformation, it suggests Novella did not read the review as he claimed.

2) Novella claims that the review is ' largely in line with the existing standards of care of the Endocrine Society clinical practice guidelines and the WPATH guidelines. This is sort of the major international group looking at gender affirming care, right? So it actually isn't that out of line with the published standards of care that already exist.'

Fact: The University of York conducted systematic reviews of international clinical practice guidelines (evaluating quality of evidence and recommendations) using Appraisal of Guidelines for Research & Evaluation (AGREE) II. The review of guideline quality found most international guidelines, including WPATH and Endocrine Society guidelines, lacked rigour and transparency, and had no clear links between evidence and recommendations. They also reported that the guidelines created an illusion of consensus by cross-referencing each other, and that ‘this may explain why there has until recently been an apparent consensus on key areas of practice for which evidence remains lacking’. The review team recommended only the Swedish and Finnish guidelines for practice (which both recommend rolling back medical transition of minors). In view of this, Novella’s statement that the Cass recommendations are consistent with WPATH/ES practice again suggests he has not examined the review and is repeating misinformation designed to deflect criticism.

3) Most seriously, Novella repeats misinformation that the Cass review disregarded studies of hormone treatments for not being double-blind placebo-controlled trials. This false statement was already debunked on the FAQ to the review and on various interviews given by Cass. Novella first asserts without providing any evidence that the review did not follow any established standard for evaluating evidence quality but ‘made it up as they went along’. This appears to be accusing the University of York team of fraud or incompetence. He then falsely claims that studies of hormone treatments were rejected because they were not DBPCT, and that this means the review ‘rigged the game’ by rejecting good evidence for not meeting an impossible standard.

Fact: The UoY reviewers used a modified version of the Newcastle-Ottawa scale for evaluating non-randomised studies to evaluate studies of hormone treatments. This scale does not downgrade studies for not being double-blinded. The version used for Cass did not downgrade for not being single-blinded either. The cut-off for rejecting a study of low quality was a rating of <50%, which his lower than often used. Even by this lenient system, nearly half the research was low quality and almost all the remaining studies only moderate. No studies were rejected or downgraded for not being DBPCT, all studies could have scored 100% on the scale if they were well designed and conducted. This lenient rating method was used because a previous NICE review employed GRADE and rejected nearly all studies for not being blinded RCTs (as did other reviews from Germany and Sweden). If Cass had wanted an excuse to reject evidence, she could have simply accepted the NICE reviews and not bothered to commission a new research programme.

This is particularly egregious given that he claims these false statements about methodology are the main reasons for US organisations not accepting the review. There is now a new surge in people repeating this misinformation online and I have not seen any attempt by SGU to issue a correction. This suggests that they do not actually care about promoting misinformation if it protects an approved narrative.
 
Steve Novella's Science-Based Medicine colleague, David Gorski, has been überwoke for years, and Steve's co-host on SGU, Cara Santa Maria, has a PhD in "Clinical Psychology with a concentration in Social Justice and Diversity"—that is to say, wokism—so it is unfortunate, but unsurprising, that Steve, now too, has acquired the woke mind virus.
 
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I don't watch Rebecca Watson very often because her skepticism is frequently colored by ideology, but I saw in my suggestions recently that she has a video characterizing the Cass Report as "anti-science" and "anti-trans." :rolleyes:
 
I don't watch Rebecca Watson very often because her skepticism is frequently colored by ideology, but I saw in my suggestions recently that she has a video characterizing the Cass Report as "anti-science" and "anti-trans." :rolleyes:

Yeah, Rebecca (who I met at the TAM in Sydney) is another who lets what she wants to believe trump objective research.
 
I was looking out for SGU to publish a correction, but as far as I am aware they have not. I therefore have to assume that they don't care about promoting misinformation as long as it fits their tribal narrative. In effect Novella is 'lying for Jesus'. The alternative, that Novella still doesn't realise he was talking bollocks, would suggest he is so insulated from anything that contradicts his narrative he is effectively living in a hermetically sealed bubble. Either way, I see no reason why anyone who is an actual skeptic should trust anything he says on this issue, or quite possibly any issue.
Perhaps SGU needs to run a 'fact or fiction' where we try to guess which of their own podcast segments are fictional.
 
I was looking out for SGU to publish a correction, but as far as I am aware they have not. I therefore have to assume that they don't care about promoting misinformation as long as it fits their tribal narrative. In effect Novella is 'lying for Jesus'. The alternative, that Novella still doesn't realise he was talking bollocks, would suggest he is so insulated from anything that contradicts his narrative he is effectively living in a hermetically sealed bubble. Either way, I see no reason why anyone who is an actual skeptic should trust anything he says on this issue, or quite possibly any issue.
Perhaps SGU needs to run a 'fact or fiction' where we try to guess which of their own podcast segments are fictional.
You could always email them.

info@theskepticsguide.org

They respond to emails regularly on the show, and Steven is very good about engaging with email correspondents.

I mean, you can bring this up directly with them rather than whining about it on an internet forum. Just sayin'.
 
You could always email them.

info@theskepticsguide.org

They respond to emails regularly on the show, and Steven is very good about engaging with email correspondents.

I mean, you can bring this up directly with them rather than whining about it on an internet forum. Just sayin'.

Lol. What makes you assume this has not already been brought up with SGU directly?

And I'll continue to use this this forum for it's apparent purpose, which includes drawing attention to misinformation being distributed through 'skeptic' podcasts, and warning anyone who is an actual skeptic (that is somebody who judges claims based on evidence of truth or falsity rather than whether they advance a narrative thought to be socially desirable) that they cannot rely on information from such podcasts.
 
Lol. What makes you assume this has not already been brought up with SGU directly?

And I'll continue to use this this forum for it's apparent purpose, which includes drawing attention to misinformation being distributed through 'skeptic' podcasts, and warning anyone who is an actual skeptic (that is somebody who judges claims based on evidence of truth or falsity rather than whether they advance a narrative thought to be socially desirable) that they cannot rely on information from such podcasts.

Plus Novella has already put his cards on the table. He has declared that sex is completely non binary and keeps up talking about extremely rare conditions to “demonstrate” this. It’s shameful behaviour.
 
Plus Novella has already put his cards on the table. He has declared that sex is completely non binary and keeps up talking about extremely rare conditions to “demonstrate” this. It’s shameful behaviour.
Biological sex is nonbinary. This scientific fact is not even remotely controversial among people who know what they're talking about.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-science-of-biological-sex/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9355551/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/heres-why-human-sex-is-not-binary/
https://www.malecontraceptive.org/blog/biological-sex-is-not-binary
 


The fact that you can find sources that agree with you does not mean they "know what they are talking about." Or rather, it is worse than that: at least some of them know that sex is binary and thus know that they are lying when they proclaim that it is not.
 
The fact that you can find sources that agree with you does not mean they "know what they are talking about." Or rather, it is worse than that: at least some of them know that sex is binary and thus know that they are lying when they proclaim that it is not.
Just keep on denying reality.
 

Did you even read the links you posted? I am not denying that gender is not binary at all. But intersex people constitute 0.02% of the population. Pretty binary to me. And linking to Science Based Medicine is pretty pointless in this thread.
 

The attempt to rewrite biology to construct a narrative of sex as a spectrum is an example of Lysenkoism. You are not able to distinguish science from pseudoscience, and accept evidence that is distorted to fit a political objective, even when the author doesn't try to hide what they are doing (like that putrid nonsense in Scientific American). Not to mention blatant nonsense like Novella's graph that shows sex as a continuous distribution, without anything on the X axis.

This is a major reason why somebody like Novella and friends don't care about the accuracy of their content. They know believers will accept almost anything if it fits with their existing belief system. Novella just got a little too lazy and went a little far in that podcast episode by stating things are are very easily shown to be objectively false.
 
There is no binary between 1 and 0 because diodes occasionally malfunction.

In defense of Novella, I think he believes what he has said, I question my beliefs on account of his disagreement with me but like the rest of us, sometimes are reasoning is just rationalization.
 
Did you even read the links you posted? I am not denying that gender is not binary at all. But intersex people constitute 0.02% of the population. Pretty binary to me. And linking to Science Based Medicine is pretty pointless in this thread.
It's not binary, but it is bimodal.
 
There is no binary between 1 and 0 because diodes occasionally malfunction.


There are only two kinds of people in the world: those who will understand that analogy and those who won't.

In defense of Novella, I think he believes what he has said...


So what. He's still part of the problem.
 
There are only two kinds of people in the world: those who will understand that analogy and those who won't.




So what. He's still part of the problem.

There's one in a million who will almost get that analogy, so, really it's a spectrum.
 
There is no binary between 1 and 0 because diodes occasionally malfunction.

In defense of Novella, I think he believes what he has said, I question my beliefs on account of his disagreement with me but like the rest of us, sometimes are reasoning is just rationalization.

Believes what he says about sex being bimodal, or what he said in the #995 podcast specifically?

What he said in the podcast is so blatantly false and matches misinformation from activists like 'Erin in the morning' and Alejandra Carabello (who as far as I can tell started the misinformation campaign) that the most likely explanation is that he just parroted what they said without fact checking. Gorski did parrot the misinformation from these activists early on so he may have got this from him, although it is astonishing if he still believes this months later.

Novella also relied on the nonsensical so-called 'Yale critique', although even that does not state that studies were rejected for not being double-blinded. It does make some rather vague criticism that the review does not define 'evidence quality', which is nonsense because the peer-reviewed studies conducted for Cass provide full details of the methodology including how quality was assessed. Novella failed to mention the conflicts of interest of the authors he recommends in the podcast, including having had their own research rated as poor quality in the review.
 
Still no correction this week from what I can see.

Novella is usually quick to attack those who disagree with him, but is now silent on this issue. He either suspects he is wrong and won’t admit or (more likely) is convinced that the rubbish he broadcast is absolute truth and the last word on the matter.
 
Novella is usually quick to attack those who disagree with him, but is now silent on this issue. He either suspects he is wrong and won’t admit or (more likely) is convinced that the rubbish he broadcast is absolute truth and the last word on the matter.

Steve Novella has thoroughly bought into gender ideology. On Science Based Medicine he published „The Science of Biological Sex,“ in which he claimed, „Biological sex is not binary.“ Before that, Novella and his SBM co-editor David Gorski threw their long-time co-editor Harriet Hall under the bus when she published a positive review of Abigail Shrier‘s Irreversible Damage. Novella‘s beliefs on matters of gender ideology are clear. So, when the Cass review was published, he did what any good skeptic ideologue would do when presented with contrary evidence: revise their opinion discredit the evidence.
 
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I’m a patron of SGU and never miss the show. I will probably continue my subscription because on balance they do good. But I will consider my position.
 
I’m a patron of SGU and never miss the show. I will probably continue my subscription because on balance they do good. But I will consider my position.


I suspect that not wanting to lose paying subscribers is one reason for being reluctant to follow the evidence and go against what is currently promoted as consensus in the US, Canada and Australia (but increasingly not in the UK and in European/Scandinavian countries). A podcast by 'skeptics' who only follow the evidence when it doesn't cost them anything is not actually a skeptical podcast.
 
I suspect that not wanting to lose paying subscribers is one reason for being reluctant to follow the evidence and go against what is currently promoted as consensus in the US, Canada and Australia (but increasingly not in the UK and in European/Scandinavian countries).


I disagree with you. There is no evidence that Steve is spreading misinformation about the Cass report is fueled by a desired to maintain an audience for his podcast. And such a hypothesis doesn't explain his long history with radical gender ideology. He, like millions, has just become infected with wokeism, an ideology that is actually very common in academic medicine to the detriment of all.
 
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I disagree with you. There is no evidence that Steve is spreading misinformation about the Cass report is fueled by a desired to maintain an audience for his podcast. And such a hypothesis doesn't explain his long history with radical gender ideology. He, like millions, has just become infected with wokeism, an ideology that is actually very common in academic medicine to the detriment of all.

I'm not suggesting that revenue is a primary reason, but I have noticed that it's easier for people to adopt and maintain a position of self-righteous fundamentalism when it happens to coincide with advancing their own social and economic interests.

I've also seen it suggested somewhere and I think it's probably true, that followers on social media, podcasts etc are not just influenced by the people they are following or listening to, but also have an influence on them. This may not be entirely conscious, but since content creators obviously want to maintain a large fan base, they would have to be motivated to actively try to resist the effects of being positively reinforced by telling fans what they want to hear. If they convince themselves their cause is morally righteous, that is a good excuse for not resisting.

I'm sure that if Steve Novella is currently rationalizing not correcting his false statements, he is doing so by saying that a correction would 'harm vulnerable minorities'. But it happens that a retraction would also upset a lot of fans because many of them clearly think it is justifiable to spread this misinformation. Of course it is possible that Novella may also think that and have known all along he is making false statements.
 
I disagree with you. There is no evidence that Steve is spreading misinformation about the Cass report is fueled by a desired to maintain an audience for his podcast. And such a hypothesis doesn't explain his long history with radical gender ideology. He, like millions, has just become infected with wokeism, an ideology that is actually very common in academic medicine to the detriment of all.

I'm not suggesting that revenue is a primary reason, but I have noticed that it's easier for people to adopt and maintain a position of self-righteous fundamentalism when it happens to coincide with advancing their own social and economic interests.

I've also seen it suggested somewhere and I think it's probably true, that followers on social media, podcasts etc are not just influenced by the people they are following or listening to, but also have an influence on them. This may not be entirely conscious, but since content creators obviously want to maintain a large fan base, they would have to be motivated to actively try to resist the effects of being positively reinforced by telling fans what they want to hear. If they convince themselves their cause is morally righteous, that is a good excuse for not resisting.

I'm sure that if Steve Novella is currently rationalizing not correcting his false statements, he is doing so by saying that a correction would 'harm vulnerable minorities'. But it happens that a retraction would also upset a lot of fans because many of them clearly think it is justifiable to spread this misinformation. Of course it is possible that Novella may also think that and have known all along he is making false statements.

Yes. “Woke mind virus” Is itself an ideological concept that doesn’t have explanatory value.

Far more likely, as you suggest, Elaedith, is that the influences are flesh and blood people in his life such as his own co-host at SGU, and colleagues at SBM. There may even be family members or friends who are trans and who have asked him his professional opinion on these topics. I think it becomes more and more difficult to change your stated beliefs on an emotionally charged issue the more you have committed either through genuine conviction or rationalization. It may be even more difficult if you have publicly disagreed with former friends or colleagues or implied that they are bigots for their view such as Shermer, Dawkins, Singal or Hall (which is something that Gorski has done). It’s hard to go back on those and admit that you may have been in error.


The irony is that Novella has himself pointed out these things, that the Sagan model of knowledge deficit is not sufficient to explain why some people believe things that are not true or at least do not have enough evidence to support them. Rather there are a whole range of sociological factors which reinforce views other than facts and logic. But it is probably not easy to turn up in the lunch room and be the only person who has changed his mind on something. Just as someone who goes to work with a group of people who listen to Fox News or Rush Limbaugh back in the 90s is unlikely to say, “You know what, I think that it is a matter of personal liberty for someone to be able to have a same-sex marriage…” so it is also unlikely for him to be able to say, “I’ve changed my mind on transgender medicine for minors in light of the Cass Review. I see that my initial position was no better supported than say the efficacy of acupuncture. In fact, that is going to be my next segment on SGU.”
 
I mean, you can bring this up directly with them rather than whining about it on an internet forum. Just sayin'.

Are you really taking issue with someone bringing up an example of blatant spreading of misinformation on a popular podcast that many forum members listen to?

Isn't this what this forum is meant to be for?
 
I don't watch Rebecca Watson very often because her skepticism is frequently colored by ideology, but I saw in my suggestions recently that she has a video characterizing the Cass Report as "anti-science" and "anti-trans." :rolleyes:

Which pretty much every expert in the field has also concluded.

Remember, the Cass team was deliberately seeded with people who had (and have) no expertise in the recognition and treatment of trans kids to "not cloud their findings". And they also deliberately avoided talking to experts, children involved or their families.
 
Which pretty much every expert in the field has also concluded.

Remember, the Cass team was deliberately seeded with people who had (and have) no expertise in the recognition and treatment of trans kids to "not cloud their findings". And they also deliberately avoided talking to experts, children involved or their families.

I'm going to ask you for evidence of any of these claims and you're going to run away
 
https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/final-report-faqs/

picture.php
 
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And they also deliberately avoided talking to experts,.

A bit back to front:

In a letter to John Stewart, national director for specialised commissioning in NHS England and NHS Improvement, dated last month, Dr Cass said that despite his “welcomed efforts to obtain cooperation, most of the NHS gender clinics have refused to take part in this research”.

Dr Cass said it had “not been at all straightforward trying to get this research off the ground” and had “absorbed a considerable amount of time and attention” from the review and delayed its work.

She said the study “follows usual NHS research practice” and was “only novel because of the sensitivity of the subject matter”.

Dr Cass said it was “hugely disappointing that the NHS gender services have decided not to participate with this research”.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/whistleblower-refusal-adult-gender-clinics-230100752.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubXVtc25ldC5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAM_yhnqbZLBDpqoPFreWfa3-A2xyZ1MJVzLoN3nxZShg7CHxEdTUo_Ng1usWRngWBElKQrFNrUnqwnSHvbx0VHudiKqGhXzwHlRTaazNmNo8xG8AVbDNvys2mTw36PpGY8YzGNs1ScylcscTfAB-ZdsetrSl62vgR-fCcO_pA5BT
 
Still no correction? Looks like they really don't care about spreading scientific misinformation as long as it's all in a good cause.
 
Curious why the skeptics who proclaim to care a great deal about the spreading of misinformation* don't seem to care about this particular misinformation.

Also interested in why GF hasn't retracted his claim:
Remember, the Cass team was deliberately seeded with people who had (and have) no expertise in the recognition and treatment of trans kids to "not cloud their findings". And they also deliberately avoided talking to experts, children involved or their families.
After it was shown to be a blatant falsehood.

*I certainly think they are right to do so, if they actually do care about what is and isn't true.
 
The Cass review has thrown a spanner in the works.
New Zealand has a mental health minister who proclaimed he looked forward to his children discovering their gender identity.
He is refusing to release a report delayed continually for 12 months prepared by Patha, ruled by a man larping as woman.
New Zealand is sterilizing children at 10 times the rate the UK did at peak.
 
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